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Push-Pull vs. All-Pull? pros/cons (Page 1)
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The Steel Guitar Forum
Bar Chatter Archive
Push-Pull vs. All-Pull? pros/cons (Page 1)
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| This topic is 2 pages long: 1 2 This topic was originally posted in this forum: Wanted To Buy |
| Author | Topic: Push-Pull vs. All-Pull? pros/cons |
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cocheese unregistered Posts: 6528 |
posted 12 February 2000 10:10 AM
I am getting a lot closer to finding the right steel...thanks to everyone's support on this forum. Of course, I always have more questions that may or may not be so relevant. My newest question deals with the advantages/disadvantages of the All-Pull and Push-Pull designs. I am on the verge of purchasing my first psg and desperately want to get one that is right for me. Since it will be my only steel, I was just wondering which format would be better in the long run. I have read that the Push-Pull guitars have "that sound", but do the guitars that are All-Pull lack "that sound"? Do Push-Pull equipped guitars require more up-keep and/or frequent tweaking, etc...? I've had some very old, great-sounding 6 Are Sho-Buds and Emmons All-Pull or Push-Pull? Is one's personal "taste" the bottom line? Thanks a lot in advance, Tyler |
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Martin Abend Member Posts: 878 |
posted 12 February 2000 10:55 AM
Well, Tyler, this is "the" question. Have you tried to search for topics about this? I believe you'd find more than you can read within a week. All the best, Martin |
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Larry Bell Member Posts: 4116 |
posted 12 February 2000 11:23 AM
(. . . here we go again) I play one of each. I played a ZumSteel (all-pull, obviously) EXCLUSIVELY for 19 years and then bought a '69 Emmons push-pull. I played the push-pull exclusively for one year and, two weeks ago, pulled the ZumSteel out of the closet and played a couple of gigs with it. I can only compare those two guitars which, incidentally, are both single 12 strings on double-neck frames. OBSERVATIONS (all are MY observations and MY opinions): * they sound different The Emmons has overtones that the ZumSteel doesn't. The Emmons cuts through a crowded room better and is brighter. I find it easier to sound TOO bright and a bit thin with the Emmons, but all-in-all, I like the sound of the Emmons better. A second observation I'd like some feedback on from people who play the new design Carters is that the Emmons vibrates for almost a minute when I strum across the strings and hold on to the body. I don't hardly feel the vibration at all on the ZumSteel. Carter owners??? * push-pulls are harder to work on and modify but not much harder or time consuming to maintain I lubricate all moving parts every 4-6 months on both guitars, depending on how often I play it. Since the Emmons doesn't use the 'no-lube' bearings, there are a few more 'lube points. I re-configured the Emmons from an Extended E9 to a 6x6 universal with all the changes I use most often and it was not as difficult as I thought. I probably didn't do everything right, but it plays like a dream. The ZumSteel is a pleasure to work on and adjust. * the push-pull makes a lot of noise The 'coat hanger' construction is noisy, plain and simple. Anyone with the Tommy White E9 video on Pedalhead can attest to the fact that the noise of the mechanism is clearly audible, almost to the point of distraction, sometimes during the video. The axe sounds like a million bucks, however. * the push-pull is not as positive in its feel, in particular, the knee lever stops. The ZumSteel is a brilliantly engineered machine that has not become outdated in the 20 years I've owned it. CONCLUSIONS: My two guitars are like my two children. I may take my son to a baseball game and take my daughter to a play. I love both equally. By the same token I may play the Emmons for some gigs and the ZumSteel for others. The Emmons can sound retro and the ZumSteel always sounds sweet. The two guitars have unique personalities. I have pet names for them, if that says anything about my connection and personal relationship with them. The Emmons is 'The Beast'; the ZumSteel is 'The Beauty'. That about sums it up. I will not likely ever sell either one. Just my opinion. |
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C Dixon Member Posts: 5912 |
posted 12 February 2000 12:12 PM
I agree! The p-p has the sound. The all pull has the action. I have a digital video of Larry Sasser on an Emmons' P-P and jamming with Buddy Charleton on a brand new Emmons' LeGrande III. No comparison of the sound. This taking into consideration the different picking styles of the two players. The P-P just cuts through. Even a novice would immediately notice it. The question is, why? I don't think anyone really knows why. Many possiblities, but I think more speculation than fact however. However, IMHO the pedal and knee lever action is soooo much better on the all pull, I would have to opt for it and sacrifice the sound advantage of the P-P. Go with Jesus, carl |
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Rick Tyson Member Posts: 431 |
posted 12 February 2000 01:44 PM
Once more this flaming topic is brought up for discussion. Hang on while I put the old bullet proof vest on this time M*A*S*H All in all ,your question is a valid one my friend. No doubt, the P/P guitars have that tone, that sound legendary to the instrument along with a multitude of rods,bellcranks, pullys,springs Etc. associated with P/Ps & tuned and adjusted properly, have that beautiful tone & sound. So why look for anything else?? The only thing better would be an all pull guitar with that beautiful tone & sound, Right?? Right. In my own humble opinion, I have an all pull guitar with that sound & tone. DUCK!! here comes a shot over the bow  A few months back I purchased a S-10 P/P from a well known steeler for a national act who was praised for the tone & sound of his P/P on various gigs around the country. When I recieved this P/P ,I set it up beside my all pull,same settings, same rig Etc. I was astonished!! Same tone same sound, brothers ,twins no difference,,,to my delight. I have the perfect steel. Im going to dig a foxhole now & wait for the artilery. Rick  ------------------ |
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Jay Ganz Member Posts: 1626 |
posted 12 February 2000 03:30 PM
Only an absolute KNUCKLEHEAD would play a Push/Pull!   |
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Jim Cohen Member Posts: 8715 |
posted 12 February 2000 03:51 PM
quote: Thanks for compliment: I bought this guitar from Tommy soon after he made the video! Mike Cass worked it over and it's no longer noisy, but it still sounds like a million bucks! Now if only I could play like Tommy... [This message was edited by Jim Cohen on 12 February 2000 at 03:52 PM.] |
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Herb Steiner Member Posts: 6119 |
posted 12 February 2000 04:17 PM
Jay Who's that clown behind the Emmons? His playing position looks positively wooden! ------------------ |
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Larry Bell Member Posts: 4116 |
posted 12 February 2000 04:39 PM
Hey Jim, What did Mike use to get rid of the 'clank'? One of these days I plan to have him work his magic on The Beast, but I hate to be without it. LTB |
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Larry Bell Member Posts: 4116 |
posted 12 February 2000 04:47 PM
oh yeah, Herb I believe that's Buddy Doody. He played with Buffalo Bob Wills and the Texas Knuckleheads. LTB |
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John Lacey Member Posts: 1843 |
posted 12 February 2000 04:49 PM
Tyler, a lot of really good points here. I wouldn't get a push-pull unless you absolutely have to have that sound. If it's engrained in your mind above all others, get it. This is given that you only want one guitar. Although, if the push-pull is really well set up and you don't mess with it, it's like a rock. Where you lose out is in splits, (lowering the 6th. string down a whole tone and then raising it up exactly a half with the second pedal-tuneable), and facilitating easy function changes. If you like experimenting with setups, it's a bit of bear, whereas the all-pull is very simple. Any of the new top brands will do, they all sound pretty darn good and are made very well. Myself, I spent about 20 years trying to find THE sound from several different guitars including an Emmons Legrande and didn't find it til I got the original. Now I'd like to get a second all-pull guitar to experiment with fast setup changes. By the way, if you DO buy a push-pull, get it set up by an Emmons mechanic and/or consult my website on doing basic setups. Good luck and good hunting. http://www.cadvision.com/laceyj/index.html |
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Kenneth Kotsay Member Posts: 306 |
posted 12 February 2000 04:50 PM
HEY JAY, how the heck did you get that picture of me playing steel at the PEE WEE HERMAN Steel Jam. I can't stop laughing, it's a gas, great photo. Now on to the Posted Question: I own a 1981 D-10 Emmons, a 1998 D-10 Zum & a 1999 D-10 Franklin. The Emmons is a work horse, very very stiff & noisey, but the sound is what Larry had mentioned above. The Zum is now my practice steel, smooth and sounds great. Now the Franklin is beyond description, the pedal action is very fast, smooth and would you believe it I just broke a G#-3rd strings after about 6 months of heavy use. Paul senior really did an outstanding job of craftmenship, it was worth the 11 month wait and extra cost. The ZUM is a beauty when it comes to craftsmenship also. Mr.Zum after all is German and Germans are known for their skills in machine work. The Zum is like a German Heildberg printing press, excellently crafted, easy to operate and keeps on ticking the quaility of print is outstanding. As for the Amercian made printing presses, they function, that's it. I was once a letter pressman and offset pressman in the printing industry and operated both domestic and foreign presses. WWJD |
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Jim Cohen Member Posts: 8715 |
posted 12 February 2000 05:41 PM
quote:My hard-earned cash!  I dunno, I guess he adjusted all the tolerances and took out as much slack as possible. You'd have to ask him. Truth is, you probably could still hear some noise if you listen for it, but you're so mesmerized by the tone of the guitar that you don't even notice it. I swear it's true! And several guys who've played and owned other push-pulls have tried this ax and told me that they've never played a p/p with such easy pedal action. Again, accomplished by Master Cass, using OPM (Other People's Money, namely, mine and well worth it!) [This message was edited by Jim Cohen on 12 February 2000 at 05:43 PM.] |
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Marsha Fogle unregistered Posts: 8715 |
posted 12 February 2000 06:54 PM
I asked Harold this very question one day, and this was his answer. "I have played them both and it all boils down to this. Do you want to drive a Ford or a Chevy? They both have good features. It's all up to each individual." That was about the best explaination I've ever heard in the push/pull arguement. (But Harold was a push/pull Emmons guy.) |
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Paul C Member Posts: 968 |
posted 12 February 2000 08:54 PM
Let me throw my handgrenade in here as a recent student that went from an excellent All Pull and now is in the P/P camp. Two things to think about. First, what kind of music do you like. If you love that old, slow, expressive music, you'll fall in love with a P/P. If you like the modern, quick, smooth sound that you hear on just about every song being cut today, then the all pull is the answer. I personally love the very old expressive music of the 40s - 60s. As a new player, I was having all sorts of problems with those long, smooth pedal squeezes, and half pedals where out of the question. On my all pull, the changes were quick, positive, and effortless. I had no feed back from the guitar at all because my foot could only feel a pedal that was bottomed out. A P/P fights back, sometimes fights hard. One of my teachers said it's always good to slam you fingers in the car door before sitting down to a P/P, because then you'd be mad enough to really play it. Come time for those long pedals being milked, the P/P helps me all of the way. I can always feel exactly where the pedal is at. The trick is, at the end of a 4 set night, to still have enough legs to press the pedals down all of the way. Great for ballads, a lot of extra, very trying effort to play quick Paul Franklin runs all night. If you'd like to earn your PF Flyers, then find a good all pull. It's easier, quicker, and sounds a lot better than a P/P as far as I'm concerned. The extra throw of a P/P just sounds sloppy to me on a fast run with a pedal push or two. Maybe it's just where I'm at on the learning curve, but if I had play a fast run, and wanted it to be clean, accurate, and clear, it would be an all pull for sure. Second thing to consider is reputation. In this case, the guitar's, not yours. You'll find as soon as you start playing out a lot, there are two names known by people who don't know anything about steels, Sho-Bud and Emmons. If anyone, (non-steeler), ever askes you what kind of steel you play, you can pretty much bet they are looking for one of those two. The best summation I've heard is, "When you go into a gig with an Emmons, nobody is going to question your taste or judgement." That Certainly Does Not mean there isn't other great guitars out there, (a long list of them actually), it's simply a very real problem of perception, and one that I have already run into. This really isn't going to amount to a hill of beans on you learning the guitar, and shouldn't amount to anything after that. Just offering a glimpse into the future since you asked. The good news is there isn't a "bad" choice here to me made, just one among several good ones. |
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Dennis Manuel Member Posts: 409 |
posted 12 February 2000 09:31 PM
About 15 years ago I had the luxury of sitting down and playing a push pull Emmons. The sound of that guitar has stuck in my mind since then and for me there never has, nor ever will be a guitar that sounds as good as a push pull Emmons. Now thats simply my opinion and it's definitely subjective. When the Emmons Co. started making the original Legrandes I bought one and thought it would sound like a push pull, it most certainly did not and I was some what disappointed. The guitar was close to the push pull sound but that certain something was lacking, however, the guitar worked and really did sound fine. I recently traded the Legrande for a push pull about three weeks ago, simply because I had to have that definitive Emmons push pull "SOUND". The guitar that I traded for is a 1976. As far as pedal action it plays as easy as an all pull guitar so if you are having problems with stiff pedals it is not the guitars fault, its adjustment, lubrication or worn out parts. I had never owned a push pull and I did my own adjustments and simply followed the information that is so freely available. Like others I was some what skeptical about owning one because I had heard horror stories about the mechanical action of the push pull guitars. All I can honestly say is, and once more this is my opinion, it does not take a person with a mechanical degree to work on these guitars. When they are adjusted and lubricated properly they work great and as far as I can tell they stay in tune as well as the all pull guitars. Like John said previously they are somewhat limited if you want split tunings because the raises are always dominant. Anyway before closing, my philosophy for the day is; You are not going to find an all pull guitar that sounds like a push pull guitar, and you are not going to find a push pull guitar that sounds like an all pull guitar. [This message was edited by Dennis Manuel on 12 February 2000 at 09:37 PM.] [This message was edited by Dennis Manuel on 12 February 2000 at 09:40 PM.] [This message was edited by Dennis Manuel on 12 February 2000 at 09:43 PM.] |
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cocheese unregistered Posts: 409 |
posted 12 February 2000 11:08 PM
Wow! What an overwhelming response to my question. I do apologize for opening such a seemingly controversial thread. All of the things that were said are fascinating to me. I know, from 10 years of playing 6- string guitar, we musicians are always on a "quest for the ultimate tone". This tone is a subjective matter though, which is exactly what makes making music such an amazingly personal and intricate art. Each individual's taste is what keeps things interesting and fresh. Your inner personality comes out through the way you play, your choice of equipment, but more importantly your choice of notes. That being said, I am much closer now to finding the steel that siuts me best. I may ask some pretty "dumb" questions, but I now feel better educated on the subject. Now I will feel better about the decision and I don't feel like I made the dreaded impulse buy. Thanks again for all your help. Now I've got to break down and get one and start learning how to play the thing. Thanks, Tyler |
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Steven Welborn Member Posts: 666 |
posted 13 February 2000 12:42 AM
I'm pretty green next to most of these guys but can't resist offering MHO and the little bit I know on this one. Dennis covered it pretty well by my book. One thing that has'nt been touched on though, is "why" they have that sound. Though there may be others, I believe the biggest factor is plain simple physics: The changer fingers come to rest squarely against the top deck, creating a more solid transmission of the strings energy back into the cabinet. Hence...sustain, tone, etc. Bobby Semour explains it very well in one of the recent SGW issues. Understanding that was a major selling point for me in going P/P. Somewere on the forum was posted a great animated illustration of how the P/P changer works. I knew I should've bookmarked it. [This message was edited by Steven Welborn on 13 February 2000 at 12:45 AM.] [This message was edited by Steven Welborn on 13 February 2000 at 12:48 AM.] [This message was edited by Steven Welborn on 13 February 2000 at 01:10 AM.] |
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Paul C Member Posts: 968 |
posted 13 February 2000 02:14 AM
Steve: The animated mechanism is on the Carter Website. BTW, I understand that Carter now makes an all pull guitar that uses cabinet contact as well, (seems like we saw a thread where they were awarded a patent.) From the reports that I've heard, this new design has improved an already great sound of those guitars. |
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Jay Jessup Member Posts: 345 |
posted 13 February 2000 05:52 AM
Dennis, If your P/P works as easy as your all pull then that says more about your Legrand than the P/P mechanism. I just received my Tyler, Quite a few manufactureers used the P/P approach in the early days but Emmons is the only one that made it into modern days using it. I beleive all Sho-Buds from the Mid 60's? on were all pull. If you do decide for a P/P then you need to go ahead and get a D-10 Emmons as I don't think "that sound" transfered to their single bodied guitars too well. My advice to all beginners would be to find a good all pull S-10 3+4 or 5 if you can find one at a good price and then you will be in a position to decide on your ultimate axe a few years down the road with some steel miles under your belt. By the way maybe we can give Tyler some advice on what that price is. I would think 750 to 1000 would by a great used guitar but I have never bought one so what do you guys think? |
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Jim Cohen Member Posts: 8715 |
posted 13 February 2000 06:46 AM
Oh, Jay, I'd have to disagree. I've owned two S-10 E9 p/p's and they both had "that sound" from the very moment you struck the first chord. It was amazing. The sustain and ring was just astonishing to me. I'd have to say... "even more" than my D-10 Tommy White guitar! Go figure... By the way, I wonder if any of you guys can relate to this observation. I think that, on a pushpull, the classic "that sound" is more evident on the E9 than on the C6 neck. Does that sound familiar to anyone else? My guess is, like someone noted above, it has a lot to do with how you squeeze and milk the A&B pedals, which of course only applies to E9 neck. What do you think? Does the C6 carry "that sound" as well as the E9? |
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Bill Stafford Member Posts: 1347 |
posted 13 February 2000 07:30 AM
For what ever it is worth, and this is my un-biased opinion, the very best "TONE" I have ever heard at the various steel guitar shows has come from Bobby Bowman's guitar. And please do not forget about Bobby's heart and hands, not to mention his guitar. Thanks. |
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Ann Fabian Member Posts: 1730 |
posted 13 February 2000 07:43 AM
Here are the hot links to:
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cocheese unregistered Posts: 1730 |
posted 13 February 2000 09:36 AM
I was wondering just how much it costs to have Mike Cass refurbish and older Emmons P/P? I know that there is one for sale in Buy and Sell that needs work. Also, I've found these psg's so far from which I can choose: Sho-Bud D-10 SuperPro, Sho-Bud S-10 Pro I, or an Emmons D-10 Legrande II. Any input would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, Tyler |
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Mark Tomeo Member Posts: 400 |
posted 13 February 2000 11:19 AM
Since you've opened this can o' worms... I own both a LeGrande II and a '69 D10 Emmons original. I played all-pulls for nearly 25 years until I found this forum and read through this same PP vs. AP thread nearly 100 times. Came into a little windfall and bought a beauty '69 PP in incredibly clean, original condition mostly to see what was behind all the emotion that's been expressed about them here. Figured to keep it at home and play the LeGrande out at smokey clubs and outdoor shows. Took the PP to a couple of shows, just to test what it could do out live. Have not touched the LeGrande since. The damn push pull is changing my life and my playing. Played it last night at the Milton, PA Moose and gave everybody chicken skin on a couple of tunes. Even gave myself chicken skin (that goosebump, hair standing up feeling that happens when the tone gets right to ya) at one point. I'm not bragging on my playing, but that guitar delivers something special, and the unsolicited compliments I received last night bear this out. It's like what connoisseurs describe in incredibly fine wines: complexity, body and bouquet. The LeGrande is a decent steel but the PP has overtones, bite, ring, sustain and a complexity of sound that goes beyond any guitar I've ever owned. I'm not a mechanic and I don't pretend to understand how or why there is such a difference between these two guitars, but there definitely is. I don't know if the PP I bought is optimally set up or not. It was apparently barely used by its previous owner and closeted for nearly 30 years. It feels OK to me. It requires more tuning and tweaking than the LeGrande and I, my unmechanical self, wouldn't try messing with its setup or adding changes at this point, whereas the LeGrande is easy to work on and I have modified it in my garage. But I am now seriously thinking about trading the LeGrande in on a second PP. Like I said, I thought I'd keep the PP at home and not subject it to the wear and tear of gigging, but using it has led me to the belief that life's too short not to play it out, given the sound it's capable of. This must sound crazy, but there you go...owning a PP has not only changed my playing, it's changed my thinking. FYI, Mike Cass' webpage: http://members.aol.com/Pushpulguy/page/MikeCass.htm |
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Steve Feldman Member Posts: 2983 |
posted 13 February 2000 11:38 AM
quote: Well - I just did the same thing as you, Mark(without the windfall, unfortunately...). I just bought a '66 PP recently, mostly to see what all this commotion is about (I'm still waiting on it to come). I figure it'll retain it's value very well if I choose to bail, but I have a feeling that that won't be the case. The funny thing is that my existing all-pull has never sounded so good as it has lately. Should be interesting... |
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Herb Steiner Member Posts: 6119 |
posted 13 February 2000 12:02 PM
Okay, I'll add $.02 and really muddy the water... The last 20 years or so I've been a PP guy, with occasional forays into Fessenden and Mullen. But most guys coming to my shows have seen me play my 64-66 Emmonses. They have "that" sound, for sure. For the last month, I've wanted to add some pedal changes, move things around, and so I hauled out my Fessenden. A beautiful looking guitar and beautiful sounding guitar, to be sure. And it played like a dream! And tone to die for. And fast .. hey fast..., effortless pedal action. Ricky Davis (noted Sho-Bud afficionado) heard it on Friday and gave two thumbs up. That was Friday. Last night I took out one of my wraparounds, and the tone had never left... again the awesome mid-60's Ray Price sound. But after a month with the Fessy, the analogy could be this: you drive a 2000 Lexus as your main car, then you get an absolutely mint condition 1960 Ford Apache pickup, totally restored with 3 gears on the column shifter, no power steering, etc. A totally cool ride, and satisfies your deep desire for total hipness. But it is not effortless driving like the Lexus. Therein lies the quandary... and I don't have the answer. Other than this: if you play Ray Price style music, the PP will be right in your alleyway. If you want to do fiddle tunes and super-fast jazz, and lots of quick pedal work, the AP will be more responsive to your mechanical, rather than tonal, needs. Ultimately, they are simply different animals, and many of us commenting here own at least one of each. I would say that if you are a beginner and can only have one guitar, it should be a newer model all-pull. If you've some experience under your belt and know what sound you seek and are up to the minor physical challenge, the tone of the PP will last you a lifetime. ------------------ |
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Richard Sinkler Member Posts: 2896 |
posted 13 February 2000 12:36 PM
My personal opinons: 1. If you can afford a double neck, buy one. I've heard the opinions that you can spend a lifetime just learning the E-9th. Maybe so, but you just might want to learn some C6th. Playing C6th type stuff on an E9th just doesn't sound good to me (Universals excepted). 2. Buy a guitar you will be comfortable with. Although I love the Emmons P/P sound, I have never liked the action of them. My first trip to Nashville in 82, I had a chance to go to a steel guitar store (may have been Bobbe Seymore's), and play several different brands including Sho-Bud and Emmons. At the time, I was playing a Kline and the Emmons just did not grab me. I did like the Super-Pro and ended up buying a used one locally. 3. I'm glad all guitars don't have "that tone". I thoroughly enjoy the differences in tone. I have loved every guitar's tone that I have owned, ZB S-10, ZB D-10. Kline D-10, Sho-Bud Super Pro, and now a Carter D-10. If I was to put myself in your shoes right now, I would consider a Universal. After about 27 years of playing a D-10, I wouldn't change now, but just starting out I would consider it. You WILL want to play C6th stuff as your playing progresses. ------------------ |
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Bill Rowlett Member Posts: 664 |
posted 13 February 2000 01:03 PM
Marsha, It's good to see you here on the forum so often. We enjoyed Harold and we certainly enjoy you too. Bill |
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Bill Rowlett Member Posts: 664 |
posted 13 February 2000 01:24 PM
I'll add my opinion about the desirability of push pulls for new players. I took one of my all pull guitars completely apart recently. I lubed and greased it, and added a few new copedent changes. I had it back together in about two hours, completely tuned and playable. It's quiet and precisely set up with solid pedal/knee stops. I just looked at my Push Pulls thinking about the major mechanical effort involved in making those same few changes to the copedent. Even simple adjustments to the pedal travel/stops can involve much thought and fine-tuning, so that you don't get bellcrank/collar interference's and have enough travel at the changer. I'm not sure that as a newcomer, I would want to deal with the complexities of these guitars. Because each raise or lower can effect several others, sometimes three or more changes on multiple necks will have to be undone/replaced just to make a single copedent change. Usually the endplates have to be removed to change lowers. I feel that these guitars are not ideal for the player just starting out. Beginners need simple mechanisms that are easily copedent modifiable so that they can experiment with the guitars. Once setup, the push pulls are very stable, however, the all pulls are much easier to deal with when the occasional problem surfaces. The soft aluminum endplates also seem to equate to wobbly legs over time. The builders that use plated steel blocks for leg mounts seem to produce a stronger guitar. I love the sound of my push pulls, but I also like the tone of other steels. And like any guitar brand or model, push pulls sometimes don't always sound the same from one guitar to another. There is no doubt that a good push pull will cut through a mix well. My old Sho-Bud Pro II also does that and it is an all pull. Sometimes the push pulls sound a little tinny, but I still get chills when I romp on them. |
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Jim Cohen Member Posts: 8715 |
posted 13 February 2000 03:00 PM
quote:On the contrary, Bill, I'd say that beginners need to learn to play the standard tuning and do not need to get distracted with changing anything at all in the undercarriage. After they've become reasonably competent at the standard copedant then they can consider changing things around. I think beginners should favor all-pull guitars not because they're easier to make changes to, but because they're easier to tune! |
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Tom Quinn Member Posts: 1152 |
posted 13 February 2000 05:21 PM
There isn't much I can add to this conversation except to say that I prefer the old Emmons guitars with the single wind pickups. I bought a real nice blue one a while back, and when it arrived in Japan, I discovered that it had dual wind pickups. It sounded pretty good but it didn't have the bite of my black guitar. As far as playing fast on a push-pull, I guess if you are faster than Buddy Emmons or Tommy White, you might have to consider the action. I'm not, and I don't! -LLL- Tq |
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Frank Parish Member Posts: 2327 |
posted 13 February 2000 07:27 PM
Buy an all-pull for your first guitar. Try the Derby or maybe an Emmons Legrande becauce you can make your own pedal set-ups and changes without sending it off if you live in Nowhere, Oklahoma and it won't cost you a dime. Tommy White use a Derby on the Opry and you hear Legrandes on just about everything that Paul Franklin isn't playing on. The Franklins are also easy to work on but are a little pricey. All of the above guitars sound great and if you want to make the change to the push-pull Emmons later you can but while you're a novice I'd play it safe with the all-pull. If you buy a used push-pull, chances are you'll need to get it set up right off the bat and that's more money on top of what you payed for the guitar. Depending on what you pay for the guitar and set-up you could get upside down in the thing before you start. |
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Johnny Cox Member Posts: 935 |
posted 13 February 2000 08:51 PM
Well here is my 2 cents worth. I personally play an all- pull. A Zumsteel. I get the sound I want and it is very dependable. There are several good choices of guitars out there. If you want a guitar fast though you may end up in trouble. The best ones take some time to get if you order it new. Push pulls are good for one particular sound but there are a couple of all pulls that will give you that sound after you have devloped a technique. There are no guitars anywhere that will have "that sound" if you first don't have it in your hands. I played Sho-Bud for 15 years till they went out of business, then an Emmons Push-pull for one year. Thats all it took for me, I did'nt sound any better on it than on my Sho-Buds or my Zumsteels and hated the mechanics.I have played Zumsteel for 20 years now. My best advice as a player who makes his living at this is as follows. Go out and play several different guitars till you find what feels good to you. There are plenty of used ones out there so don't get in a hurry, and most important get what you like because you like it not because one of us says it's the best. You can always trade later. Good luck. ------------------ |
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Marsha Fogle unregistered Posts: 935 |
posted 14 February 2000 11:59 AM
Don't you just love Johnny Cox? Hi Johnny !...it's nice to see you out and about here on the forum...Johnny is so nice and so humble...he could play a steel guitar made out of cellophane and make it sound great...I'm going to toot his horn, if any of you haven't seen Johnny in action, don't miss the opportunity, this man is AWESOME...and he didn't pay me to say that!!!! |
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John Macy Member Posts: 2290 |
posted 14 February 2000 12:25 PM
Well said, Mr. Steiner! All I am going to add is I played PP Emmons exclusively for over 25 years, and thought that was the only way. And still think they are awesome guitars, and will always be in my arsenal. However, after switching to AP guitars a couple of years ago (Fessenden's), I have never gotten so many positives on my tone from my peers and clients, not to mention my own personal satisfaction. I think the speed and smoothness of the mechanics have improved my playing also. I was playing one of the PP's at home the other night, and it sure has "that" tone and bark, but my Fessy has that and more. I was surprised that I barely touched my tone controls when I changed over. So I guess I'll be driving the Lexus now. [This message was edited by John Macy on 14 February 2000 at 12:29 PM.] |
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S Pickens Member Posts: 67 |
posted 14 February 2000 05:37 PM
Where is that Bobby Bowman these days? Bobby, I'm sure that you could offer up some "sound" advice on this topic! |
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Nick Reed Member Posts: 2713 |
posted 14 February 2000 07:28 PM
Oh Gosh, here's that topic again! I have both a New Emmons LeGrande III as well as a old 66 Emmons Push-Pull. They both sound good - BUT - there is a difference in tone. I played them both side by side over the weekend using no effects, just the amp. Even my wife could sence a distinct difference in tone and she don't play Steel. Sorry, but again I must rant n' rave over my 66' push-pull. After mostly playing the new LeGrande almost all the time lately then sitting down to that old push-pull, I couldn't get away from it, man it really cooks. It just seems to have the bite no other guitar I've played has and you can tell it more-so when playing the bass strings and the C6th neck. Just my 2 cents worth, but I couldn't resist jumpin in. NR Nick's 66' Emmons Push-Pull [This message was edited by Nick Reed on 15 February 2000 at 03:47 PM.] |
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Dan Tyack Member Posts: 3552 |
posted 14 February 2000 08:44 PM
I've got to say that anybody who is trying to make a decision on the sound of an all pull versus push/pull based on the Emmons LeGrande versus and Emmons P/P needs to be looking at other guitars. If the sound of a PP Emmons is what you are going for, there are a lot of all pull guitars that sound a lot closer than the LeGrande. This is based on my playing a dozen or so LeGrandes that the Emmons company brought to St. Louis over the last couple of years, but none of the ones I played compared to the Carters, Zums, EMCIs or Fessendens (not to mention the Franklins) in terms of that classic sound. Personally I prefer the sound of my Franklin to the 'classic' Emmons sound. But it is all YMMV, so you need to check it out yourself. ------------------ |
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Nick Reed Member Posts: 2713 |
posted 14 February 2000 10:46 PM
Dan: Point well taken. I have played most of the others except for a Franklin, and thats only because nobody seems to want to let me try one out. Many of the guitars you're talking about use a George L "E-66" pickups. Emmons uses its own pickups in the LeGrandes. Do you think this could be the reason of why other brands have the classic sound. Nick |
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