posted 07 December 2000 06:49 PM         

I remember back in the "Let It Bleed" days Ry Cooder saying he was upset because he had played some slide on a couple of cuts from that LP but Keith later re-cut the slide tracks himself while re-playing some of Ry's ideas or riffs included in his tracks.

I really doubt that's anyone but Keith playing the open G tuned guitar on "Honky Tonk Woman". He's repeated that intro many times on later recordings through out the years.

My bet is that Brian played all the slide on "Beggar's Banquet".

posted 08 December 2000 08:00 AM         

Ted, the Mosrite Melobar thing is definately interesting.

Lefty, I question anything regarding Jagger and the whole FBBS era. Not that I think you're wrong, just that there's been so much written about that damn song (which i love), it was cut in Muscle Shoals, while the Stones were on hold getting out of their current record deal, so technically anything they cut in 1969 belonged to Decca Records, so they cut 'Wild Horses' on the side at Muscle Shoals in 1969 and held it over until the new deal.

One of the stories on Wild Horses is that Jagger/Richards gave Gram Parsons a demo cut of the song in the hope that Kleinow would add some steel, instead Gram decided to cut it with the FBBs instead. There is a little debate over whether or not the Stones ever got an overdub from Pete, but I don't know for sure.
I personally find it weird that Gram even got a copy due to the politics of the group (the Stones) at the time, and the fact that Richards and Parsons were almost inseperable at one point.
Who knows?.. I guess Mick would have somewhat of a better idea on this than me, so I should just quietly shut-up.

posted 11 December 2000 04:18 PM         

I don't think Brian ever played any slide on a Melobar. The Stones were blues purists back then. That means a bottleneck on the finger. They were into the traditional slide playing of Muddy Waters and Elmore James. It has often been said that Brian was the first English guitarist to play slide, period. In fact, before the Stones got together Brian gigged for a while as "Elmo Lewis".

Keith recorded a lot of slide parts on Stones records after Brian's leaving and subsequent death. Mick Taylor did some slide on Stones records like his smokin' part on "All Down The Line", but also recreated Brian & Keith's slide parts on gigs, as does Ron Wood, since Keith's rhythm playing was so essential to the Stones groove. Keith seemed to drift away from slide at that point.

But until Brian Jones was gone, nobody had the slide gig with the Stones but him.

With Brian's ability to master instruments, if he had lived long enough to get "turned on" to pedal steel like many of us by Sneaky & Rusty and Lloyd Green & Jay Dee on "Sweet Heart Of The Rodeo", I wonder if he to would have gotten the PSG bug?

Jason, also... if you notice on the "Circus" video, some of Brians guitar is erased. I can't remember which tune it was, but you can clearly see Brian strumming on a gold top Les Paul while the sound is obviously that of a hi-strung acoustic which nobody on stage is playing. And the hi-strung sounds an awful lot like Keith's playing to me.

Brian was a great player and added a lot to the Stones (he created them), but unfortunately in retrospect it appears that he just didn't have it together enough to maintain his position in the #2 gig of that era.

Regards,
HH

posted 12 December 2000 05:58 AM         

The early Stone live material really kicks, if you've heard any 1964 material, TV etc, I prefer it to any of the later material, which is okay, but never matched the early drive. Apparently in the group's real early days they were a brilliant live bad, Pete Frame who documents groups with his band history 'family trees' once swore that the early Stones were better than anything they recorded.

posted 14 December 2000 07:39 PM         

As far as Ry playing w/the Stones, the only tunes he’s on that I’m aware of are "Country Honk" from Let It Bleed, playing mandolin, and the soul-shattering "Sister Morphine" from Sticky Fingers, playing absolutely phenomenal bottleneck (check his tone & lines—yum!).

The Jamming With Edward stuff is, IMHO, just OK. It seems all of the guys were just feeling each other out, and the results are, I think, unremarkable but historically important. Related to this, however, is the issue of Keef ripping off Ry wholesale for the "Honky Tonk Women" riff. It is my firm belief that he did just that: listen to his playing before Let It Bleed, especially rhythmically: it’s not anywhere near as funky as the stuff he started playing after hanging out with Ry, and while it’s easy to envision Ry knocking out a riff like the "HTW" intro at that point in time, I’m not so sure about Keith. Same goes for KR’s tone, ESPECIALLY on "HTW".

All that said, I still think that Keef’s playing from that time is fantastic, and only got better as the years (& tears) went by. But he sure did owe a lot to Ry, IMO the funkiest guitarist on the planet (next to Nile Rogers, I guess). I’m not really that big on Brian Jones, talented as he might have been.

Pharaoh, I’m in total agreement with you: I think that the "heroin years" were their best, and they have Mick Taylor to thank for a lot of it. His playing was just incredible! Taste, tone, you name it, he’s got it. Very underrated palyer, in my book.

On the subject of "R&R Circus", it’s been a couple of years since I last saw it, but I remember reading that the Sones didn’t want it released because The Who smoked ‘em, and truth be told, I’m of this opinion: The ‘Oo’s performance is nothing short of spectacular, the energy just oozing out of them in a way that the Stones’ was simply not. I guess the Glimmer Twins just couldn’t stand the thought of being upstaged by anyone. And Harry, was the tune you were thinking of that BJ was "erased" on "Salt of the Earth?" if so, you’re only partially mistaken, I believe: they were lip/gtr synching to the studio version, if my memory serves.

Let’s do lunch sometime!

how

[This message was edited by HOWaiian on 14 December 2000 at 07:44 PM.]

posted 16 December 2000 09:35 PM         

I'll dig that video out and get back to you. I don't see how you could not hear HTW as pure Kieth Richards. He was aware of open slide tunings the entire time he played with Brian Jones, from day one of the Stones. He started working with open tunings when Brian Jones got too messed up to be of any use. He saw them as a way to get a fuller sound and eliminate his need for another guitarist, since Brian had ended up being hospitalized during their previous American tour and was essentially a "no show". Every open tuning Stones song since then has been quite similar to what he played on HTW.

While I don't doubt that he picked up a few things from Ry Cooder, I don't think he got it all from him. Kieth's talent does not need my defence. After all, which one of them wrote all the hits and sold the multi-millions of records?

Regards,
HH

[This message was edited by Harry Hess on 16 December 2000 at 09:40 PM.]

posted 02 January 2001 10:48 PM         

A buddy of mine in Texas made me a cassette copy of some early Stones live (bootleg?) material referred to as "The Stones On The Beeb". "Beeb" being a slang name for the 1(?) radio station in England back then (BBC). I think it is now available on CD.

In any event, it was mostly all material from their first couple of albums. Really cool for the diehard "early" Stones fan (me too !!!) to listen to them play it live... just like the record but with that night's little twist to it. It was recorded on an English radio show back in '63 or '64... I think called "Live on the Beeb".

See if you can find the CD and please let me know if you do, so I can get it to.

Boomer, you may be right. But maybe Gram Parsons influence is actually heard more in "Country Honk" from the "Let It Bleed" record.

posted 02 January 2001 11:02 PM         

On the Stones 5x25 documentry film there's some great footage of the Stones doing 'I Just Want To Make Love To You' (Willie Dixon number I believe), and it totally cooked, it left the studio version for dead.
They were a total rave-up band live.

posted 04 January 2001 09:04 PM         

Yeah, I actually think the "Stones on the Beeb" recordings that I have on cassette are really compiled from several shows they did on the Beeb.

I think that cookin' version of "I Just Wanna Make Love to You" that you're referring to (where Keith had that Epiphone Casino, or was it his old Harmony Rocket(?), on a short strap riding right up under his chin), was from their famous appearance on the Dean Martin show. It took quite awhile before a lot of us serious early Stones Fans could watch old Dino without throwing spit balls at the tube after his less than cordial treatment of the band.