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Rock and roll and the pedal steel guitar (Page 2)
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The Steel Guitar Forum
Bar Chatter Archive
Rock and roll and the pedal steel guitar (Page 2)
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| This topic is 2 pages long: 1 2 This topic was originally posted in this forum: Wanted To Buy |
| Author | Topic: Rock and roll and the pedal steel guitar |
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Mark van Allen Member Posts: 2458 |
posted 08 January 2001 04:14 PM
Another Great thread! A few things come to mind... I play Guitar along with Steel and can't imagine anything I'd use a guitar for that I wouldn't tackle with the steel- some licks and lines lay out easier on the guitar, but only because I haven't figured 'em out on the steel yet. I really believe that steel fits anywhere in any kind of music- you have to be willing to listen for the things you could/should play, not just trot out some memorized licks and patterns. If you listen to Hendrix on "Little Wing", you'll hear country guitar licks as rock music. (Just don't try telling that to a diehard Hendrix fan!) I'm disturbed by the approach of learning a few licks or one scale to play "rock", especially from a disdainful "I guess I need to do this to keep my gig" perspective. Kind of like learning one classic turnaround and calling yourself a "Hawaiian" player... Playing any style involves immersing yourself in the nuance and subtleties, soaking in classic to modern recordings, and LISTENING to what fits with the other players and makes the song work. For example, I love and listen to Jazz, soak in it daily, but just because I know a few jazz standards and understand a II-V progression doesn't make me a Jazz steel player. Check out Jernigan's new CD for a stellar example of jazz mastery. For a broad spectrum of Rock or modern pop music, Overdrive or distortion is a tonal color as important as clean execution, clarity of tone and reverb are to modern country. Many players have forged a rock style without distortion, but for anyone covering a variety of rock styles some kind of overdrive (tube amp, preamp preset or stomp box) is a great tool. Most rock guitarists spend a great deal of time and $ in pursuit of the "perfect" distortion tone. Getting a good overdrive sound on steel on stage involves the same dedication. A great example here are David Lindley's classic solos and fills with Jackson Browne (notably the "Running on Empty" recording)- gorgeous, singing fat tone on smooth MAJOR SCALE based licks, that were the absolute perfect complement to the songs and lyrics. Done on a lap steel through a small OVERDRIVEN amplifier. I'm literally begging those of you who have disdain for the concept of rock on steel to listen to a copy of "Running on Empty"- Sensitive, beautiful music of the highest order. The mostly younger crowd my band plays for have a very clear awareness of what the Pedal steel is and how it works, they've been exposed to more steel playing than you might think, and they love it! And contrary to an earlier post...the girls love steel. I'm getting more and more session calls for steel as a non country flavor- and hearing it more. Sitting in a restaurant on the road last week I heard three pop/ rock songs in ten minutes with prominent steel parts. I think we're going to see more and more steel included in rock as time goes on. One of the main differences between country music and rock is how derivative and stylistically narrow most country is compared to rock... most young rock bands are encouraged and even expected to break new ground, bring new sounds and ideas to the mix, and rock club crowds appreciate and support diversity and invention in the music they go to see. Country bands, on the other hand, are most succesful if they sound much like the other bands/singers on the charts, play in just the right meter for certain dance styles, and so on. My band plays styles from traditional bluegrass to folk, rock, swing, funk and blues- and not only am I not told what style to play in but I'm encouraged to explore and innovate by both the band and the fans. The steel is often used for rhythm and signature licks and phrases- ebow, overdive, chorus, and other effects are all welcome parts of my bag of tricks, and I'm having a blast. I would encourage all of you to look at music as "Music", and not what you like, and what you don't like. There's a whole lot out there that steel can do and be. ------------------ |
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Dan Tyack Member Posts: 3552 |
posted 08 January 2001 09:21 PM
I hear you Mark, I'd bet Hendrix would have played something interesting on Wabash Cannonball. And I agree that playing rock by turning on the fuzz and learning a few scales is equivalent to rock guitar players turning up the treble to 10 and playing a couple of pseudo steel bends and calling it country. If you don't feel it, you can't play it. There is as much undiscovered territory in rock and blues on pedal steel as there was undiscovered territory in country with pedal steel in 1958. And I would add jazz to that list of undiscovered territory. As great as Buddy and Paul and Doug are, they would be the first to tell you that they aren't jazz musicians in the highest pantheon in that idiom. The jazz steel player who goes down in jazz history as one of the primary influences for all of jazz has yet to reach that place. Hopefully it will be in my lifetime. ------------------ |
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Steve England Member Posts: 542 |
posted 09 January 2001 08:12 AM
Great thread, and I have to say I agree 100% with Mike Johnstone about re-arranging stuff that doesn't have a steel part on it. I play blues/rock type stuff on a weekly basis. On a lot of the Muddy Waters type stuff we do I pretty much just go for the standard slide guitar sound. But we play a lot of songs that I had never heard before playing them with the band. As a result I make up my own parts and the song, while keeping the same basic melody and chord sequence comes across as completly different from the original. The other guys in the band seem to like it fine, so I don't see a problem. Listen to Dylan's original Watchtower and then to Hendrix's version, chalk and cheese but both great versions in their own right. Personally I don't like to use a fuzz box cause they remind me of when I was 16 and used them to cover my mistakes in my guitar playing. I do use a tube amp rather than my Peavey though and that gives a better boost and bite. I have used the A&B pedals together on some songs, but 90% of the time I was sorry I did. The strange thing is, I don't particularly like rock music (especially stuff recorded in the last 30 years) but it sure is fun to play. |
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Bobby Lee Sysop Posts: 14849 |
posted 09 January 2001 11:53 AM
quote:Sort of like Junior Brown on "Sugarfoot Rag".  |
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Dan Tyack Member Posts: 3552 |
posted 09 January 2001 03:00 PM
I once talked to a high school classmate of Junior Brown. Apparently he was a Hendrix freak in those days, and pretty much only played rock and roll. I can certainly hear the Hendrix influence in his playing. There's no doubt in my mind that Hendrix would have done some pretty amazing things musically, had he lived. Who knows, maybe he would have picked up the steel! ------------------ |
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Birney Bull Member Posts: 105 |
posted 11 January 2001 04:08 PM
Mark said:
quote: Uhhhh, it may be a subjective perspective (since I already like many styles of music), but I've always thought that "Do you like it or not?" was a question that cut through musical labels and reminded one not to let conventions determine what one likes. (Mark: Wish I'd found out you were playing in Savannah last week in time to see the show! Sorry!) But I'm fascinated with this thread's subject. Some here may recognize me as a recent Carter Starter purchaser. A big part of my justification in taking the plunge is that while I love the PSG sound, I don't hear quite the approach to it that I love in most bands and players. They're too cutesy, or pat, or ... well, if I could say it, I wouldn't need to spend a pile on getting and learning to play one myself, would I?! Funny Bobby should bring up Junior Brown! I just love him! Especially his CD Guit With It. Elvis Costello-quality cleverness in his lyrics, great bari singing voice, and a great picker. Not a pedaller, but I wish he'd take it up! ('Course he's identified with his beloved "Git-Steel," so that ain't gonna happen.) Here's some stuff I like -- maybe someone can look at this and explain >to me< what it is I'm chasing! Star Room Boys Two Dollar Pistols Grievous Angels Robbie Fulks Bobby Black's work with Commander Cody Gary Morse's stuff on Dwight Yoakam's latest, Tomorrow's Sounds Today Vidalias: Stayin' in the Doghouse. And Elvis Costello's country album, Almost Blue, on which John McFee (later in the Doobie Brothers) did some yummy PSG. I think I've gone on long enough now, but if anyone is familiar with these folks, please pass along other recommendations! Birney |
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Jim Smith Member Posts: 6399 |
posted 11 January 2001 05:25 PM
Of Junior Brown: quote:Junior most certainly play pedal steel, an old Sho-Bud that he plays on most if not all of his recordings. ------------------ |
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Jeff Lampert Member Posts: 2636 |
posted 11 January 2001 05:45 PM
Birney, I can comment about the fact that you like Bobby Black's playing with Cody and Gary Morse's playing with Yoakam. Black's playing with Cody dates into the 70's and Morse's playing style with Yoakam is very 60's-70's retro. I consider these to be what was considered in the 1970's to be the country rock sound. Very twangy, bouncy, and hot playing. Others to check out might be POCO's earliest work with Rusty Young. Also, the earliest New Rider Of The Purple Sage albums featuring Buddy Cage. Also, Emmylou's early albums with Hank DeVito and the Hot Band. I can't really think of a group or player from that era with a C6 sound like what Bobby Black did. Basically, I feel that on C6 at that time, Black played country licks with C6 chord stylings, and I don't know who else to suggest. IMHO, this is all great, great, great stuff, and I remember the days when I used to play that stuff. Unless you are playing with Dwight Yoakam, I'm not sure how many opportunities there is to do this stuff on a regular basis, and not just 1 or 2 songs a night. Oh well... |
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Dave Van Allen Member Posts: 5369 |
posted 11 January 2001 06:19 PM
Birney: at the risk of blowing my own horn (but if I don't who will?), I have spent much of my PSG life playing things other than (and as well as) country music. I have played in many original rock bands some with punk-ish and Elvis Costello-ish leanings, Rock a billy, and just plain indescribable (as "W" might say") Here is a link to a forum posting which contains a link to my Live365 webcast of my old band D-V-8's Live circa 1984. It also contains some cuts from http://steelguitarforum.com/Forum4/HTML/000719.html My most rewarding creative outlet right now is with Alt-Americana-whatever you wanna call it-Roots Rockers Last Train Home out of DC/No.Virginia, with whom I record and play regularly . They either come to Philly area or I drive down for a weekend. I seldom use a Fuzztone anymore. My fave tool when I was punking out was a flanger stuck in mid sweep between tones, enhansing the metallic crunch inherent in the steel and Fender Amp combo. That and an Echoplex. or fllanger in wild Joe Meek + leslie on steroids whirling organlike madness... www.voicenet.com/~vanallen/steelrocks.html ------------------ [This message was edited by Dave Van Allen on 11 January 2001 at 06:23 PM.] |
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Bill Fulbright Member Posts: 434 |
posted 12 January 2001 02:49 AM
Mike, Although I have just started playing after recently buying a Sierra Session U12, I have already begun working with the slide stuff from guitar using the E9 tuning (for the open E tuning often used in blues and rock). It is no different, and I think it sounds better than the regular guitar.. I also have to let you know that I really appreciate your point of view so far in all the posts I have read. Although I enjoy country, and Western Swing, my love is blues and Jazz, which I really hope to be able to start playing soon (after mastering the basics). Theory wise I am "getting it" (as I was a Comp/Theory major in college). Mark Van Allen is a good example of fusing many styles into a unique personal style with his work with BlueGroundUnderGrass. I agree that being a musician first is more important because you will bring that musicianship to your approach to the steel. ------------------ |
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HOWaiian Member Posts: 77 |
posted 12 January 2001 04:41 PM
Great thread, all! I think that the advancement of lap/pedal into other genres is directly tied to the playing experiences & personal musical preferences of the player. I fell in love with the Hawaiian style, bought Stacy Phillips' wonderful coursebook on the subject, learned the basics & developed a small (well, tiny) repetoire of Hawaiian tunes. However, if I'm writing a part or just jamming, what comes out of my amplifier doesn't sound Hawaiian- or country-like in the least: it comes out sounding like my personal style of std gtr/slide playing, which is very open-sounding, spacey rock-type stuff (lots of sus 2s & sus 4s, power chords, that type of thing). Add to this the fact that I’m always running thru a volume pedal into an old Rat distortion box into a real tape delay, and the result is just clouds & clouds of harmonic joy! Anyway, I guess my point is that rock is what you make of it!
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Birney Bull Member Posts: 105 |
posted 13 January 2001 12:21 AM
Jim, Junior plays pedal? My ears haven't been able to dig *that* out of the mixes! S'Ok, though, I love his stuff in any event. I just checked all the liner notes and there's no credit for >pedal< steel on any of the albums. His "Git-Steel" is an eight-string lap style setup. But if you know it to be a Sho-Bud, you must have inside knowledge! Thanks to everyone who passed along suggestions! Gives me ammo for interesting further exploration! [This message was edited by Birney Bull on 13 January 2001 at 11:39 AM.] |
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Mike Perlowin Member Posts: 6731 |
posted 13 January 2001 12:47 AM
HOWaiian, I'd rather not talk about my stuff on this thread. Please send me your E-mail address, and I'll send you all sorts of propaganda about it. |
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Bobby Lee Sysop Posts: 14849 |
posted 13 January 2001 12:42 PM
You can hear Junior Brown play pedal steel on some songs on his CDs. He doesn't incorporate it into his live act, though. He's a real good pedal steel player, too! |
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But a good example is stuff like Christmas music on PSG that seems to say, "Sure you've heard Jingle Bells before, but have you heard it played on a pedal steel guitar?" No offense, but no thanks!
