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Ideas on how to build non-magetnic pickups (Page 1)
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The Steel Guitar Forum
Pedal Steel Archive
Ideas on how to build non-magetnic pickups (Page 1)
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| This topic is 2 pages long: 1 2 This topic was originally posted in this forum: Pedal Steel |
| Author | Topic: Ideas on how to build non-magetnic pickups |
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jerry wallace Member Posts: 759 |
posted 06 July 2000 09:03 AM
I recently posted a topic about pickups and how their basic design had not changed since the "beginning of time"..With all of the advances in electronics now days It seems very possible to build a non-magnetic pickup.I would like very much to hear more from everyone on this subject.I think non-magnetic pickups could have the biggest impact on all amplified instruments,since tubes were invented.. ------------------ |
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Jim Smith Member Posts: 6399 |
posted 06 July 2000 09:12 AM
The GuitOrchestra uses photocells for its MIDI pickup and works great! The cells have to protrude above the strings slightly but I don't think that would pose a problem in production. I think they use a send and receive photocell, one on each side of the string kinda like this: |.| |.| |.| |.| [This message was edited by Jim Smith on 06 July 2000 at 09:13 AM.] |
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Michael Johnstone Member Posts: 2535 |
posted 06 July 2000 10:35 AM
The pickup you're describing is made from parts of Photon midi pickups originally built for standard 6-string guitar.In the late 80s,a friend of mine named Ray Austin brought me a box of such parts he had gotten from Al Petty.I finished the pickup,wire harnesses and all the rest and installed it on the E9 neck of Ray's MCI.I must say that it tracked as well and maybe better than a magnetic pickup for this application.The way it workes is this: There's an L.E.D. on one side of the string and a photocell on the other side.The L.E.D. shines a small beam of light on the string and the string blocks the light from reaching the photocell.When the string is picked and starts vibrating and moving in and out of the light path,the photocell reads the number of times per second that the light beam gets through-440 times per second for A,etc.This information is then processed and converted to midi info and drives a midi synth.The only problem I encountered was that changes in stage lighting would trigger random synth activity which was NOT a pretty sound.I fixed this by machining an aluminum cover which went over the strings and kept extraneous light out of the photocells.It also held the L.E.D.s and photocells in position and maintained their alignment.The over-the-strings cover didn't get in Ray's way cause it was as low and narrow as possible-plus,he tended to pick well forward of it.In the end,the whole thing worked pretty well.Now....as unique as the concept for this kind of pickup is,it's not gonna work with anything but midi or some other kind of synthetic sound generation.Why? because it's not reading the note itself-it's only generating a digital representation-an IMAGE of what the string is doing.In other words,you can't amplify the output of that kind of pickup-there's nuthin' to amplify.Whereas,w/a magnetic or piezo device,you're actually generating analog voltage thru DC induction.Conversly however,a magnetic or piezo device CAN be made to work w/a midi converter because the needed information can be extracted from an analog signal-just not the other way around.What all this means is that if you're looking for an alternative type of pickup to amplify the pure signal from a steel guitar string-keep looking. -MJ- |
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Keith Hilton Member Posts: 1649 |
posted 06 July 2000 10:56 AM
When you boil everything down, and cut away the fat, you only have two things: Voltage and current. So you could actually use about anything that would change voltage and current, due to a string vibrating. I already know how to build one using a infrared emitter and receiver. ------------------ |
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Jim Smith Member Posts: 6399 |
posted 06 July 2000 11:06 AM
quote: Maybe this isn't too far off this topic, but are there such magnetic-to-MIDI conversion devices on the market? It seems that this would be the ideal solution for MIDI'ing steel guitars and would certainly eliminate the broken IVL pickups that seem so rampant these days. |
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Dave Van Allen Member Posts: 5369 |
posted 06 July 2000 11:32 AM
one can't take the outputs of mutiple strings over a pair of wires and create discrete MIDI output for each note in a chord. you still need an individual pickup/output for each string which is basically your IVL style pickup. The main problem with IVL pickups is they don't make 'em anymore, and apparently nobody either knows how or doesn't see a $$ in repairing/replacement. damn shame. I got a couple hundred bucks waiting for the person who can/will allow me use my IVL again. |
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Michael Johnstone Member Posts: 2535 |
posted 06 July 2000 11:42 AM
Yeah-the IVL pickups are magnetic as are Roland,Ibanez and other 6-string systems.The Photon system is the exception-not the rule. Anybody that is set up to wind pickups could, albeit w/some effort and expenditure,build midi pickups for steel guitar.I'd like to see someone like George L or Bill Lawrence or anybody for that matter,make a regular PSG pickup which also had a midi tap built into it.It would not only make for a cleaner installation but it would also make available the main stumbling block for guys wanting to get into midi steel-availability of pickups.In lieu of a 12 channel IVL brain,you could always use two readily available Roland GI-10 6-string converters summed w/a midi blender - if you just had a PICKUP! A few high-end standard guitar manufacturers like Godin,Parker Fly,Brian Moore,and even Fender are offering "midi-ready" guitars.Wouldn't it be nice if Zum or Sierra followed suit? I know it'll never happen cause only about 100 people would be interested,only about 10 of them could afford one,and only 5 would actually buy one. -MJ- |
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Ricky Davis Moderator Posts: 6522 |
posted 06 July 2000 11:47 AM
Oh-no is Keith Hilton gunna start building Pick-ups for Steel guitar?>I'll have to have one if you do pal>put me on the top of the list.   Ricky ------------------ |
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Jon Light Member Posts: 6528 |
posted 06 July 2000 01:21 PM
Out of curiosity, what were Lace sensor pickups? Was there anything radical there or just some arcane tweaks to a magnetic pickup? |
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Bill Stafford Member Posts: 1347 |
posted 06 July 2000 02:51 PM
Talk to Ed Packard. BS |
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Donny Hinson Member Posts: 9192 |
posted 06 July 2000 03:43 PM
Pickups are trouble-free, easy to replace, and relatively inexpensive. Unless the replacement technology was cheap, reliable, and small, I don't think it would pay to change. Soon, focused laser beams will be practical to use in place of transducers. The string will modulate the beam, and an A-D converter will do the rest. But we're not quite there yet! P.S. DVA...you CAN send multiple signals over a pair of wires, and then "unscramble" them. It just takes computing power. But so far, Peaveys and Fenders don't have Pentium IV processors in them! Anyway, in the not-to-distant future, all small-signal wires (guitar cords, and the like) will be replaced with fibre-optics. (That will take care of hum and line-losses for good!) [This message was edited by Donny Hinson on 06 July 2000 at 03:53 PM.] |
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ed packard Member Posts: 1355 |
posted 06 July 2000 05:36 PM
OK BS, quit tryin to sic the dogs on me! We both know that there are lots of things that could be done to upgrade the existing PSG; Pickups, changers, string terminating areas, programmable fret boards, electronic pitch shifters per string, and mucho other stuff. The technology for it already exists; The ideas are easy. The execution is not that difficult, ..but if one does it, they should do it for themselves (same reason Joe Wright generates his books on computer, ..if someone wants to buy them that is nice too). As someone above pointed out, The market is too small to support the project(s; and even then one chap would want it black with racing stripes, another pink with yellow polka dots, another wood with one and a half necks etc. The Roland individual string pickups work for both analog and midi signal interface purposes, just slant them to compensate for string spacing issues. Semiconductor lasers such as are used in CD players could be used with or without fiber optics (but watch your eyes or cover the radiating area). Ambient changes in light, heat, electric fields will mess up Photo, laser, IR, magnetic types if they are based on "absolute value" approaches. Piezo's are messy because of the mechanics of the changer. And if it was all done, some folks would say something like "that does not sound/feel/play like/look like the old 1960 Sho Bud, or something like that. Agreeing on the number of necks, the number of strings, what they are tuned to, what they get changed to causes discussion enough as it is. That said, we did the Zirc bar for kicks (it proved out the marketing point; you did the 14 string E9/B6 with Lok, ..I did the 13 series tunings structure, and the computer program for analyzing/designing tunings, ..and one of these days I just might build the next generation pickup/changer/string termination/fret board edition, ..but just for myself! [This message was edited by ed packard on 06 July 2000 at 07:44 PM.] |
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Michael Johnstone Member Posts: 2535 |
posted 06 July 2000 06:28 PM
Quote: "Soon, focused laser beams will be practical to use in place of transducers.The string will modulate the beam,and an A-D converter will do the rest. But we're not quite there yet!" Actually,that's exactly how the Photon system works-only just simple light instead of a laser.And then it goes to an A-D converter...it's called midi.And the Photon system has been around for more than a decade.Even if you used a laser and some other system instead of midi,it would still have to accomplish all the things midi already does-hopefully it would have a somewhat faster response.But even then,if you wanted it to sound like a steel,you'd have to re-create the sound of a steel at the other end with samples.It reminds me of guys I know who put Roland pickups on their Strats and then midi them into $3000 samplers to trigger samples.........of Strats - samples,BTW that were made using magnetic pickups. Kind of like goin' up a hog's ass for a ham sandwich.Now I'm a midi kind of guy,and if somebody's got a better way to play sounds other than a steel guitar-but trigger them FROM a steel guitar,then I'll buy it.But if and when some radically new pickup technology comes along to amplify the strings themselves,you're gonna get a radically different sound out of your steel-and it'll probably be a good one(and if it is,I'll buy IT too)But when it comes to the sound of a steel guitar as we now know it,THAT sound is produced by stainless/nickle steel strings stretched across a magnetic pickup wound somewhere between 16k and 22k. -MJ- |
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Al Marcus Member Posts: 7471 |
posted 06 July 2000 07:40 PM
Michael, Yes, if they made a midi for steel that was reliable and inexpensive, sort of, I would buy one too. I think there would be more than 100 interested in one and more than that would buy one, if available at a reasonable price. I hear all the time about steel being dropped in the band and the keyboard stays in! Well, guys lets get a midi and play keyboard on our steels! And then still play steel, which keyboard guys can't do. How about that?....al [This message was edited by Al Marcus on 06 July 2000 at 07:43 PM.] |
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Keith Hilton Member Posts: 1649 |
posted 06 July 2000 09:47 PM
I doubt that any form of new pickup will be a passive device. It will have to be powered. Michael, from your account of the light and the photocell, I would like to ask some questions. Was the light a simple LED, and was the photocell a CdS Photo Resistor? I can't understand how the light and photocell was arranged where the string blocked the light? Did it reflect off the string? Please describe how the light and the photocell was positioned in relation to the strings? ------------------ |
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Michael Johnstone Member Posts: 2535 |
posted 06 July 2000 11:57 PM
The elements were positioned pretty much like the diagram in Jim Smith's post early in this thread.Both elements looked almost identical - flat,rectangular,they stood upright on edge and they were both about 3/16" wide and 1/4" tall and mounted in sockets that were in turn soldered to a home made circuit board which was about 1/2" wide and 4" long.They were arranged in pairs opposing each other with just enough space between them for a string to vibrate at maximum excursion without hitting the elements.They extended about 1/8" above the playing surface of the strings-right between the changer and the pickup.Perhaps the string did not block the light completely and only modulated it at a given frequency.I'm not sure about the exact nature of the receptor device-it could well have been a CdS photo resistor but the light source seemed to be a simple L.E.D. You see,these parts were about half assembled and all I did was finish up and redesign a couple bad ideas in the circuit board,housing and mounting bracket,wire up the pigtails and create a place to mount the onboard preamps and a bracket for the multi-pin connectors,etc.So basically,I didn't get too deep into or question the circuit design at a component level.I was more involved with adapting it to and installing it in that steel with as much elegance as possible.I knew it would work because I made it out of parts from 6-string pickups that worked.You know,I just remembered-I've got some pretty detailed photos of that rig somewhere around here and if you want,I'll try to find them and e-mail them to you. -MJ- |
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Bobby Lee Sysop Posts: 14849 |
posted 07 July 2000 10:08 AM
I don't see any need for a non-magnetic pickup. Magnetic pickups work very well, require no power source, and sound great. Why mess with that? |
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jerry wallace Member Posts: 759 |
posted 07 July 2000 10:40 AM
Bob,in way your right,but if we didnt experiment with improvements,variations,and new things we would still be driving model T's and playing Non pedal steels wouldn't we? ------------------ |
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Keith Hilton Member Posts: 1649 |
posted 07 July 2000 04:43 PM
I don't agree with you on this one Bobby. I'm sure when someone invented the first magnetic pickup someone said, "Why do we need that? A guitar sounds just fine without a magnetic pickup. Besides, you would have to have electricity and a amplifier". Some people who have never been on a computer ,or the internet ,see no need for it, and really feel somewhat threatened by it. I have two teenage kids, and one thing I have learned from my teens is to have a OPEN mind. I even listen and like "SOME" things on MTV. ------------------ |
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Bobby Lee Sysop Posts: 14849 |
posted 07 July 2000 06:33 PM
Okay then, what do you hope to get from a non-magnetic pickup that a magnetic one can't give you? There was a reason for the original pickup: volume! What's the reason for a non-magnetic pickup? |
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ebb Member Posts: 1045 |
posted 07 July 2000 06:51 PM
I would think that a light field would interfere less with a string's vibration than the magnetic flux. An unimformed speculation. [This message was edited by ebb on 08 July 2000 at 08:11 AM.] |
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Keith Hilton Member Posts: 1649 |
posted 07 July 2000 08:04 PM
Bobby when you experiment anything can happen. Many of the great things that make our lives better were discovered by mistake, or while trying to invent someting else. Do you think the computer and the internet happened without people experimenting? I would love to see more people experimenting. ------------------ |
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Jim Palenscar Member Posts: 1566 |
posted 08 July 2000 07:10 AM
best thread in a while |
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Bobby Lee Sysop Posts: 14849 |
posted 08 July 2000 04:35 PM
The research and development that created computers and the internet was goal-oriented. Most engineers do not experiment. We develop products that extend existing technologies. This is why I ask "What are you trying to accomplish?" It's the engineer in me. I don't see experimentation as a very efficient way to design new products. Instead, I work backwards from the product requirements by researching technogies that may be applied to the problem. Your requirement seems to be to improve the sound of the pedal steel. My next question is "How should the improvement sound?". Do you understand where I'm going here? I want to define a problem, then find a technology that solves it. Deciding the technology first does not usually lead to the best solution. What benefit drives the development of a non-magnetic pickup? Could that same benefit be developed with an inexpensive magnetic design? If so, why go to something more complex? [This message was edited by Bobby Lee on 08 July 2000 at 04:41 PM.] |
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Keith Hilton Member Posts: 1649 |
posted 08 July 2000 05:06 PM
Bobby, I can understand where you are coming from. You say, "Most Engineers do not experiment." I agree! The company a Engineer works for gives him a problem to solve, and he works on that problem. So, I agree with you on everything. ------------------ |
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Donny Hinson Member Posts: 9192 |
posted 08 July 2000 06:42 PM
Bobby. You say "why experiment?"...here's why! The tonal and timbre characteristics of ANY instrument are based on "overtones". The only thing that makes a trumpet sound different than an oboe, playing the same notes, is OVERTONES! I have seen demonstrations of a trumpet player playing while they "electronically" eliminated the overtones, and guess whaT? The had an oboe sound like a trumpet, a saxaphone, and a trombone...all through the control of overtones! The demonstration was nothing short of unbelieveable! With the same technology, an amp could make an MSA sound like a Sho-Bud, a P/P Emmons, or a ZB!. I'm not talking "sampled" or "synthesized" sounds here...I talking THE REAL THING! Just a few modifications to the overtones of the signal, and you can reproduce almost ANY sound! Why aren't the amp manufacturers "jumping on this idea?" Your guess is as good as mine! One thing for sure, the one that DOES will be the next top seller! And you can take that to the bank! We don't need sophisticated programs...we need a couple of knobs that will do what WE want! |
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Keith Hilton Member Posts: 1649 |
posted 08 July 2000 08:09 PM
Donny, I read in a Electronics Engineering magazine I get where FENDER is building a amp that can sound like any amp ever made. I know for a fact that PEAVEY will also introduce a similar amp. This is on the same idea you have. If a Peavey Nashville 400 could sound exactly like a Marshall, or a 1959 Fender Bassman, wouldn't that be interesting. Well, that same concept could be applied to pedal steel guitar. What if you could make a MSA sound like a old push and pull Emmons? Or make a Zumsteel sound like a Sho-Bud Mavrick-----Just kidding! The problem with me is that I am not a Engineer, my university degree is in Mathematics. So, I have to experiment to solve problems. ------------------ |
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Keith Hilton Member Posts: 1649 |
posted 08 July 2000 10:16 PM
Bobby is really correct about setting a goal to accomplish, then working toward that goal. Most companies must do this or they would never have a product or turn a profit. They can not afford to have high paid Engineers going in every direction playing with pet projects. Goal--engineering produces results. Although I am not a engineer, I have a University Degree in Mathematics. Back in 1964 I worked in the engineering department with thousands of engineers at North American Aviation in Long Beach, California. We were working on a thing called the Lunar Landing module. The Engineering goal was to put men on the moon. In 1969 the machine I worked on went to the moon. There is something to be said for the sheer joy of experimenting like a kid. What if the Government made it a law that everyone who experiments must have a goal???? A goal being forced on the experimenter is too much like a boss at a company or being in the military. In other words, you will work toward this goal, and you will like it!!! I suppose I should have a goal, but it is a lot more fun just experimenting and seeing what happens. I have found that I learn just as much from my failures as I do my success. ------------------ [This message was edited by Keith Hilton on 08 July 2000 at 10:17 PM.] |
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Earnest Bovine Member Posts: 4687 |
posted 08 July 2000 10:28 PM
Keith, is your degree in New Math? |
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Donny Hinson Member Posts: 9192 |
posted 09 July 2000 08:42 AM
Keith... I want my guitar to sound like ANY guitar. I don't care about my amp sounding like ANY amp. These two aren't the same thing!!! BUT! With the right controls in the amp, you could make my MSA sound like an EMMONS, or a Sho-Bud. |
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Keith Hilton Member Posts: 1649 |
posted 09 July 2000 01:14 PM
Earnest, I am still laughing when I think back when you said you use Elephant dung on your strings. Then the fellow came on and ask you if it was Asian or Africian! I like that! To answer your question: New math came into public schools back when I was in high school. Donny, the changes in overtones you talk about could be done with electronics at the guitar. It could also be done at the amplifier. ------------------ |
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Anders Brundell Member Posts: 493 |
posted 09 July 2000 03:20 PM
Maybe I´m a bit aside of this very topic, but anyway: I´ve noticed that moving a magnet close to the pick-up changes the sound quite a bit. Have anyone tried what an electro magnet with adjustable power could do? Or is this idea obsoleted by ProFex? Anders Brundell, Falun, Sweden new e-mail: steel_picker@hotmail.com (don´t forget the underline mark _ between steel and picker.) |
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ed packard Member Posts: 1355 |
posted 10 July 2000 12:48 PM
I made my living in the engineering/physics world, and I cannot recall any project that was done without experiment. The reasons for the experiments were usually to solve some nuance not clear in the engineering/math analysis as applied to the defined problem. More often than not the experiment opened the door to some new insight that inspired something else to be invented. We are not so smart yet that all we have to do is write a program and push buttons to solve complicated problems, particularly those that have to do with subjective things like "what sounds good". |
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Keith Hilton Member Posts: 1649 |
posted 10 July 2000 04:58 PM
I wish that we would not of got off the subject. This is a real interesting subject. The only different way anyone has suggested building a non magnetic pickup is with some type of light. If you go back to my original post, I said you need something that changes voltage and current. Many things besides light can do this. What other ideas do we have? Don't like arguing about which came first the chicken or the egg. ------------------ |
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Jon Light Member Posts: 6528 |
posted 10 July 2000 05:38 PM
Back to my question--does anyone know what the deal was with the Lace Sensor pickup? Fender was putting it in Strats and claiming that it reduced or eliminated magnetic dampening of the strings. I have heard that they were pretty good but not quite vintage sounding. So what were they? Magnetic or what? |
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jerry wallace Member Posts: 759 |
posted 10 July 2000 06:51 PM
Keith,I have heard several mentions of the "Hall Effect" sensor.Are these a type of photo/light device.From what little I know about these it sounds like they could be used for a pickup..?? |
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Keith Hilton Member Posts: 1649 |
posted 10 July 2000 09:04 PM
Actually Jerry, a Hall Effect sensor is a type of magnetic sensor. They are mostly used as a off and on switch. You can buy them at Radio Shack. At one time I actually thought about building a steel guitar pedal using a Hall Effect sensor. I think it would work about as good as the infrared system I am now using. To be honest, I have never "tinkered" or played with them. I have always wanted to, but have not had the time this last year. Radio Shack sells a good little book about using magnetic devices. Several examples of using the Hall Effect sensor is shown in the book. The book is written where anyone can understand what is going on. ------------------ [This message was edited by Keith Hilton on 10 July 2000 at 09:05 PM.] [This message was edited by Keith Hilton on 10 July 2000 at 09:39 PM.] |
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Jack Stoner Sysop Posts: 8119 |
posted 11 July 2000 03:47 AM
I suspect some type of "electronic" pickup will come about at some point. However, since the light source and the receiver have to be out of the way of the strings and out in the open, how do you take care of the stray and ambient light that is always there? However, as the magnetic pickup is moved to a "solid state" device, there comes the argument that HI-FI enthusiasts have - the older Analog 33 1/3 LP Records have a more natural and dynamic tone than the digitized CD music. If that is true what happens to the sound of a steel. |
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Michael Johnstone Member Posts: 2535 |
posted 11 July 2000 12:25 PM
If you'll read one of my earlier posts in this thread,I described how,when I installed a pickup based on light modulation on a PSG,I had trouble w/ambient light and especially stage lighting.The thing would actually yodel random synth notes when the stage lights would come up after a ballad,etc.I solved this by putting a small aluminum shroud around the unit. As far as vinyl records-as a recording engineer,I used to hear that argument - but not so much anymore.Digital is good - especially 24 bit.Truth is,the physics involved in cutting vinyl records,forces you to reduce the dynamic range to almost nothing and it also forces you to employ a very unrealistic EQ curve.If you were to attempt put a modern mix on vinyl,the needle would literally jump out of the groove.And that's one of the reasons CD re-issues of records originally issued on vinyl are apt to suck so hard-the record company is too cheap to re-master so they just make CDs off their old RIAA curve tapes and sometimes they use an actual vinyl record as the source! -MJ- |
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Terry Sutton Member Posts: 18 |
posted 12 July 2000 04:00 AM
I had a friend here about 35 years ago with an "Electrostatic" (Capacitor Mic Type) pickup on his six string Lap Steel - it was a very clean sound, although the occasional "Pop" was to be expected while playing outside. The wheel goes round and round and .... Terry |
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