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?? for non-C6 players (Page 1)
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?? for non-C6 players (Page 1)
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| This topic is 2 pages long: 1 2 This topic was originally posted in this forum: Pedal Steel |
| Author | Topic: ?? for non-C6 players |
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John Steele Member Posts: 2469 |
posted 27 October 2000 08:31 AM
I guess the basic question is: Why ? Now, I didn't intend this to be a thread to argue the pro's and con's... but I'd really like to know. Neither is this intended to be a thread to bash the opinions of others. If you just plain hate the sound, then that's cool with me. But, for those of you who don't play C6th, I wonder if it's because: A) You just don't like it - no interest. (again, that's fine!) B) You have a passing interest in it, but the thought of learning another tuning is intimidating... and you've already got your hands full. C) You'd dearly love to play it, but the different approach seems an impossible stretch. D) Theory makes you break out in a sweat... E) Some other reason.... So, which one are you ? -John |
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Bobby Lee Sysop Posts: 14849 |
posted 27 October 2000 08:59 AM
I play at it a little, but I find it discouraging because I can't get the basic triads in octaves as easily as on the E9th. To me, it's easier to find jazz chords on the E9th, by extending the triads that I already know. It's easier for me to get extended chords from the E9th than it is to get the "basic" chords from the C6th. The C6th has a good low range, but in most music I want 1-5-1 in the low octave, and there isn't a lot of that in the C6th. I also don't think that a tuning should define the kind of music you will play on it. To me, the E9th is more versatile, except for it's limited range on a 10 string. Having 5 strings per octave instead of 4 gives you a lot more possibilities. ------------------ |
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Ricky Littleton Member Posts: 588 |
posted 27 October 2000 10:21 AM
I like to listen to some C6th stuff, but my taste in sound is the E9th. I played around with the C6th, but never really got into playing it, not because I was shy at learning it, but again just not for me and the type of music I play. Love to hear Big E and Herbie Wallace break loose on the C6th though. I sometimes can't see or understand some of the chord structures used in some folks playing ( and this following comment has gotten me a dirty look or 2 over time), and especially Curly Chalker's stuff. I know he was an innovator and a really great player ( and I really did enjoy his E9th picking) and made his mark with rapid cascading chords on the C6th, but I never really cared that much for that style. Now that I've pulled the pin, guess I should throw the grenade and run like a scalded dog! ------------------ |
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Moon in Alaska Member Posts: 1155 |
posted 27 October 2000 12:28 PM
I thought I would wait until I had "MASTERED" the E-9th ! 50 years and still not there !!  ------------------ [This message was edited by Moon in Alaska on 27 October 2000 at 12:29 PM.] |
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PLAYSTEEL9 Member Posts: 689 |
posted 27 October 2000 02:31 PM
I ASKED A few people when i started to play, about learning both necks, mr. emmons told me,"there's enough c6th sound on the e9th neck so learn it first" jd and jeff newman told me to learn the "money" neck, that will take the rest of your life, when i went to newmans cabin, he even cut the strings off my c6th neck. said they are in the way and i will use them for a arm rest. (bad habit i still find myself doing at times,) i guess as soon as i am really good at the e9th neck i will start on the c6th neck, i sure hope st. peter lets me take my steel with me. btw i do love the sound of the bottom neck, even play a few sound once n a while on rock sounding songs, by 99.9999 i play on the top side. just my opion wayne ------------------ |
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Steve Feldman Member Posts: 2983 |
posted 27 October 2000 03:06 PM
I'm not intimidated by it, but I DO have my hands full otherwise right now. I plunk around a bit with C6 on lap steel. I'll migrate over thataway when the time is right. |
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slick Member Posts: 560 |
posted 27 October 2000 04:39 PM
B) Wayne |
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Al Marcus Member Posts: 7471 |
posted 27 October 2000 08:08 PM
E) I have played Reece's Bb6-maj7, Herb Remington's A6, Alvino Rey's E6 , Jeff Newman's E9, and standard C6. I like them all. But back to the post, "why I don't like C6 as a open tonic tuning. It is not relevant to anything, music wise. It is no wonder most E9 players won't touch C6. Another good relevant tuning is A6, just like your pedals down on E9. You are already used to that. So why not put either A6 or B6 on your bottom neck? I'll bet, you will start playing it. You can play the same tab,etc. use the same pedal pulls as on C6, same chords , only in different location, but for A6 ,same location as pedals down on E9. Very familiar. Players using E9/B6 on S12 guitars have the right idea.(It is also A6 with Pedals down) If I were a D10 man, I would have either a A6----B6----or E6 on the bottom neck. And I have done that with A6 and E6. I prefer E6, as it is the same bar positions as E9 and my 2 (A & B)pedals down on E6 are the same as pedals down on E9. Anyone that know his 6th type chord structures can play A6-B6-Bb6-D6-E6-and C6, but if you are a E9 player, you have to concentrate, transpose, and just think too hard with them all eXCEPT E6. That will seem easier and more familiar. With E6, I don't have to think, and I like that.......al [This message was edited by Al Marcus on 29 October 2000 at 08:46 AM.] |
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Tony Palmer Member Posts: 1022 |
posted 28 October 2000 05:38 AM
Here are my reasons up till now: 1)Wait until I've "mastered" the E9 before learning the C6 2)None of the bands I've played with could use a C6 sound 3)Why carry something 10-15 lbs heavier? 4)Heard pro players get FANTASTIC C6 sounds from an E9 neck 5)Every local player I've seen with one NEVER uses the C6 live 6)I've managed to get all the C6 sounds I need by using the E lower lever (B6) HOWEVER, having said all that, I have now got to a point in my playing where I am ready for a new challenge and have decided to buy a double neck!!!! But I doubt if I'll gig with it because....see all the reasons above! |
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Jeff Lampert Member Posts: 2636 |
posted 28 October 2000 06:32 AM
John, This question has given non-C6 players an opportunity to criticize the tuning and question it's usefulness! I could refute just about any point but I'd rather post positively since there is nothing that needs to be defended in this tuning. If some of these, IMO, unjust points continue like this, I might jump in. Remember, a lot of new players, or players on the fence who are considering playing a double-neck, will look at this and might draw some guidance from these answers so we should at least present the opposite side. Perhaps you'll open up a similar thread called "?? for C6 players - Why do you play the C6?". |
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Donny Hinson Member Posts: 9192 |
posted 28 October 2000 06:51 AM
I think the only reason we don't use the C6th more is that we very seldom hear it on the radio. Modern recording producers have "determined" that the currently played C6th stuff (that leans toward the Western Swing style) just doesn't sell. But, you can bet your asterior that if you heard a lot of it on the radio, players everywhere would be taking the plunge! While it's true that you can get some of the same sounds on E9th (extended or otherwise) you can't get them all. If there had been a few more players like Curley (who preferred the C6th) we would see much more C6th today. But then...players like Curly don't come around very often! |
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George Mc Lellan Member Posts: 1282 |
posted 28 October 2000 08:20 AM
John, I like the C6th neck, pick at it a little, but doubt I'll ever get very good at it. Just isn't enough time in the day. I thought when I retired I'd have all kinds of time to learn it.....wrong!!!!!!! I have less time now than I had before.
------------------ |
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Chas Holman Member Posts: 188 |
posted 28 October 2000 09:01 AM
Isn't it really all in what you learn and what you feel comfortable playing with (or on)..? I was SO lucky to have started playing in the mid 70's around the Austin, TX area. I'll just name a few of the great players who were around at the time: Herb Steiner, Jim Loessberg, Josh Dubin, Tommy Detamore and of course, the "Sage of Steel", Mr. Bert Rivera. They all made great impressions on me, and influenced my playing. And THEY ALL PLAYED THE C-6th TUNING..! Many a night, I'd find myself at the Oasis Club where I could stand three feet from Bert and watched him "go crazy" on that back neck... and he was a genuine mentor to anyone who wanted to learn the steel guitar. God Bless You, Bert...! I'll most likely never be as good as the greats I've mentioned here, but I'd feel half dressed trying to do a gig without my "back neck". If I can't drop that low 'C' string down to an 'A' at least once a night, I feel cheated..! And I wouldn't even attempt playing "Nightlife" on my E-9 neck... (I think that might be blasphemy). Now, before you all start 'flaming' me, I'll end with the way I started: "Isn't it really all in what you learn and what you feel comfortable playing with (or on)..?" Bars & Picks Forever, -Chas |
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Rick Schmidt Member Posts: 1596 |
posted 28 October 2000 12:07 PM
Ditto's on what Jeff L. said! |
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Bobby Lee Sysop Posts: 14849 |
posted 28 October 2000 06:53 PM
I love hearing great C6th players do their thing. Herbie Wallace, Bert Rivera, Doug Jernigan, Herb Steiner and Jim Cohen are my favorites - they really knock me out! One of the great things about pedal steel is that, once you get the physical part of it down (hands, feet, knees), you can apply the same skills to a variety of systems. The difference is all in your mind. I think that part of what keeps me from playing C6th is intimidation. The guys who do it well are so amazing. I don't feel like I have the time in this life to reach that point, or to even reach the point where I could play swing as well on C6th as I do on E9th. It's interesting that much of the "rock slide" you hear on hit records today is in fact C6th pedal steel. Also, it seems that the occassional "western swing" steel part on hit records is more often than not played on E9th. I think the reason for both of these things lies in the tone - producers want fat, beefy rock parts and thin, twangy country parts. It has more to do with string gauges and range than with the tunings themselves. That's my theory, anyway. |
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Ingo Mamczak Member Posts: 595 |
posted 28 October 2000 07:46 PM
Hi John , I own a beautiful D10 , but I can really only play the E9 neck  I thought I would have made a better hand of the C6 by now , but part of the problem for me is that I can find the stuff much easier on E9 compared to the C6 neck . I think the problem for me was that I'm so used to playing the " regular " six string guitar and I can relate that EADGBE tuning to E9 a lot quicker when I'm under pressure . Similar problem for me on the six string was getting out of the habit of using always the E bass string to locate root notes in barre chords .Also for a long time I didn't have the theory to understand chords fully and so understand how I could use the C6 neck to get these chords . Once I started studying a little bit of theory it all started making more sense to me , so I'm at the stage now of playing stuff on the C6 neck but not fully playing the C6 tuning ... yet Ingo .  [This message was edited by Ingo Mamczak on 28 October 2000 at 07:47 PM.] |
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John Steele Member Posts: 2469 |
posted 29 October 2000 12:12 AM
Thank you, one and all, for your input...I think it's all very interesting. Jeff, that's a great idea. Lead on, MacDuff ! -John |
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Graham Member Posts: 1270 |
posted 29 October 2000 05:18 AM
John: Guess I'd have to say because my guitar is only an S-10! , but all kidding aside, I think I would be very intimidated by it based on the problems I still have with E9th. Can't see the point of trying another tuning until I can master the one I've got now.------------------ |
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BDBassett Member Posts: 503 |
posted 29 October 2000 08:25 AM
When I made the decission put away the D-10 and to order a single 12, extended E-9 way back in 1975, it was based on the style I played at the time. Commercial country pop. All very much oriented toward E-9. There have been times I regretted that but it worked out OK anyway. It is a challange to figure out how to get jazzy sounding music out of an E-9 but somehow I manage, kinda-sorta. I do miss out on serious discussions about theory and how it pertains to C-6. For one thing, theory does make me break out in a cold sweat but I also feel a little left out by not understanding it better. BD |
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Jack Stoner Sysop Posts: 8119 |
posted 29 October 2000 08:26 AM
After reading all the posts, I don't see one real good legitimate reason (except for those with just an S-10) for not playing or attempt to play the C6th. It's not the monster many think it is, and why not have the option of an alternate tuning? You may not "need" it in your current band but musician's are not known for staying with one band very long and the next band you work with knowing a little C6th may come in handy, or even get you a job with a new band. Or you get a call to fill in or a one time gig and it may pose an opportunity to use the C6th. Someone mentioned that Jeff Newman cut their C6th strings off and told them they didn't need the C6th. If that's the case, why isn't Jeff just playing a straight E9th tuning? Or why is he selling C6th courses... |
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Al Marcus Member Posts: 7471 |
posted 29 October 2000 08:35 AM
INgo- Here is a good tip for you on your D10. As you mention, You relate to the E root for chords on your guitar. Right! Tune that bottom neck to E6 with E root on the 10th string. You will suddenly find yourself very familiar with the setup. It can be EXACTLY the same note structure and pedal pulls , etc as C6. So you can still use the same Tab if you wish. HOWEVER- Another good plus, is that you are now in E on both necks. All the pedal and knee lever pulls now on your C6 WILL work on this E6 with NO CHANGES needed! You will note a lot of the same notes as on E9. And the chord postions are the same as E9. There is nothing wrong with the C6 tuning or type of music played on it. But I guarantee that if a Player , such as yourself, puts E6 on that neck, THEN he will start to play a lot more C6 type music, and not be intimidated by it. It will work!.........al [This message was edited by Al Marcus on 29 October 2000 at 08:38 AM.] |
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Steve Feldman Member Posts: 2983 |
posted 29 October 2000 09:00 AM
quote: You have got to be kidding, Jack. Aside from the fact that MY reason IS legitimate (at least to me), there are beaucoup musicians, teachers, and others who would suggest that the further you spread yourself thin, the more shallow is the learning. If I had kept playing the fiddle and banjo, for example, these last 3 years, I can guarantee you that I wouldn't have made NEAR the progress (or spent NEAR the money, come to think of it) as I did on steel. I guess I just think that there ARE 'legitimate' reasons should someone decide to go that route, and that that decision is an individual thing. Regards, [This message was edited by Steve Feldman on 29 October 2000 at 09:01 AM.] |
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Bobby Lee Sysop Posts: 14849 |
posted 29 October 2000 09:59 AM
Lloyd Green plays an S-10. |
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John Paul Jones Member Posts: 305 |
posted 29 October 2000 10:19 AM
Just a note of interest. Dave Menefee only plays C6 but plays E9 licks on it so well you can't tell the difference. I first heard him do this when I worked with him in 1962. Charlie Owens from Fort Worth is an excellent E9 and C6 player. I recently heard him sit in on another guys steel. I complimented his fabulous E9 picking. Charlie informed me that the pedals and knee levers on the steel were set up so different from his own that he had to play everything on the C6 tuning. I couldn't tell the difference. It's all in what you like and what you get use to, I guess. John Paul Jones |
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rayman unregistered Posts: 305 |
posted 29 October 2000 11:08 AM
I just started playing C6th about two years ago. I consider myself a low intermediate player on that neck. I found the C6th to be more interesting to play but a little more difficult because of the bar movements. I found that playing the C6th has improved my bar movement ability overall. I find more neccesity to emulate pedals with bar movement on the C6th. I find the C6th to be more of a challenge than E9th IMHO. I can definitely see how exclusive E9th players would find the C6th neck intimidating, but the sounds you can get are just so great. My band loves the swing stuff and never guessed that the steel could get such a big band sound. I'm also blessed with having a master C6th player as a teacher to answer questions. I found Jeff Newman's C6th swinging course to be a great help. Its a tough neck there's no doubt about it. It just takes alot of time. |
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Moon in Alaska Member Posts: 1155 |
posted 29 October 2000 12:11 PM
Al, you make a good point there !! Most E-9th players can only THINK in E. Transposing the C-6th to E-6th helps the E player understand the string relations. I think this will help some players understand the C/E-6th. I have allways played a lot of western swing on the E-9th and enjoy that sound a lot !! I don't think the new players should do what I do, just what works for them. I have never owned a double neck, but I do know that 90 % of the pros use a D-10. ------------------ |
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Bob Hoffnar Member Posts: 4278 |
posted 29 October 2000 01:42 PM
I used to only play a single neck E9. Then I got a U12 (sorta like a E9 with C6 training wheels  )Now that I got the nerve to get a D10 and dig into the C neck I'm never going back. The C neck is a real treat. The more I learn it the more I love it. Bob [This message was edited by Bob Hoffnar on 29 October 2000 at 01:44 PM.] |
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Joe Miraglia Member Posts: 771 |
posted 29 October 2000 02:10 PM
I think a lot of this has to do with tuning preference and what you were using when you started playing. Today most new players start by learning the E9 tuning. I started on lap steel (E-harp tuning) and then converted to A6 tuning. When pedals came along, I continued to use A6 with a A6/E change. So old habits snuck in when I went to E9 and to this day I think A6, A and B pedal down as my first approach to a song. Again with C6 I have modified by lowering my Es to Ds using a left knee lever and lowering my third string from C to B gives me the A/B pedal setup that is on the E9. Of course, tuning the first string to G. What these changes do allows me to be a little more versatile to get some of the E9 effects while on the C6. As for the different fret relationships between E tunings and C tunings I am sure this is just a coincidence, but third fret on the E9 tuning gives you G to C change which seems to be what a lot of people chose to sing country. Third fret has a visual mark which on the C6 tuning, third fret is Eb and this is where I go paranoid that a lot of jazz numbers are written in Eb. Could there be something to that? Joe |
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Jeff Lampert Member Posts: 2636 |
posted 29 October 2000 02:33 PM
You know, this point about wanting to master one tuning - well, the greatest players in the world would be the first to tell you that they haven't mastered anything. There are so many players who, if they acted on such an idea of mastering E9 before trying C6, would not have played C6 and we would have been short-changed on some real nice playing. Another thing - if you like the sounds and styles you hear on the C6, it is a shame not to try it because you think that you will compromise your E9 playing; you will be depriving yourself of the satisfaction of making some of those sounds you enjoy so much. And it would be a particular shame since, having played the E9, you can leverage so much of the technique to play the C6, AND as you play C6, you can take ideas and techniques from that and improve the E9 playing. I think if everyone took the idea that you shouldn't play two tunings, or two diferent instruments (what about the nifty dobro-playing of some steelers!!) for fear of diluting one with the other, a lot of wonderful playing would be sorely missed. And the worst thing, maybe one of the players, perhaps a decent but not spectacular E9 player, could be a potential C6 master, and neither he nor we will ever know about it. |
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Joe Miraglia Member Posts: 771 |
posted 29 October 2000 02:48 PM
Jeff you are so right. And if I can add, maybe if you can't get what you want on one tuning, you can get what you want on the other. This will force you to learn more by having to practice more to figure out the musical structure of the different tunings. Joe |
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Steve Feldman Member Posts: 2983 |
posted 29 October 2000 04:36 PM
I really don't understand at all why anyone would want to mandate what someone should or shouldn't play. I don't think I'm hearing that anyone is making some kind of life decision to give up C6 in order to 'master' anything else. I personally am pursuing what is, for me, right now, most fun and lucrative on the steel. It's that simple. If some of you all think that that's 'too bad' or that I don't know what I'm missing, or that I could be doing something better, or having more fun, I'd have to say that you're under some mistaken impression. This is kind of like trying to respond to the post above about 'which is the best brand of steel'. Better off left alone... This is my choice for now. What's the big deal? [This message was edited by Steve Feldman on 29 October 2000 at 04:38 PM.] |
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Rick Schmidt Member Posts: 1596 |
posted 29 October 2000 05:14 PM
I feel like my E9th playing is benefited BECAUSE I play C6.....& vice versa. |
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Ingo Mamczak Member Posts: 595 |
posted 29 October 2000 06:24 PM
Hello Al , Thank you very much for posting that , I appreciate it . It sure will make things easier for me Ingo . |
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Al Marcus Member Posts: 7471 |
posted 29 October 2000 07:07 PM
Ingo- My pleasure,Hope it helped a little. Moon- I am not the one who says everyone should play one tuning. Especially me. Heavens, I have played on every tuning imaginable, and you can play good music in any of them. But, if a D10 player feels like a stranger on the C6 neck, then he should tune it to A6 or E6. Then it will be relevant to his E9 and he will no longer feel like a stranger on the bottom neck anymore....al |
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Jeff Lampert Member Posts: 2636 |
posted 29 October 2000 07:09 PM
quote: Well, I just read the posts, and several said that's the reason. Also, on previous occasions, that same comment was made by quite a few players which leads me to believe that this idea of only playing one tuning or instrument at a time has a lot to do with many players avioding the C6. Reread this thread. It's a very common concern among many players, if not yourself. And no one's mandating anything. LG doesn't play it; JayDee doesn't play it. If you dont't like it, don't do it. But for those that do like it and would like to try it, I was just trying to help remove some obstacles to their thinking. |
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Steve Feldman Member Posts: 2983 |
posted 29 October 2000 07:37 PM
Jeff - I suspect LG, JayDee, and others have made their own decisions because that's what they prefer - it's not 'a shame', it's not 'a compromise', they are not 'short-changed', and I doubt very seriously that they are 'deprived' to use your own words. quote: I guess I can appreciate your interest in helping others along the way, but I also think that one man's obstable may be another man's path. |
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Jeff Lampert Member Posts: 2636 |
posted 29 October 2000 08:52 PM
I said it was a shame if a player liked the C6 stuff and didn't get a chance for himself to enjoy it, to at least try it, because he was concerned about diluting his E9. I didn't say it was a shame that LG and JD didn't play it. (By the way, LG did try it for awhile. And I think maybe JD took a shot at it. Maybe someone knows.). And I said WE, that is, other players would be short-changed, not the person who chose not to play it, if we didn't have some of the great C6 stuff we currently have because some players didn't want to do two tunings. And I said that players were concerned that their E9 playing would be compromised by playing the C6, NOT that it was a compromise to not play C6. I hope this clears up the points I was trying to make. [This message was edited by Jeff Lampert on 29 October 2000 at 09:00 PM.] |
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Dave Brophy Member Posts: 95 |
posted 29 October 2000 09:16 PM
This is an interesting thread. quote: Joe,my guess is that the E and C tunings came about more as a result of the limitations of the first acoustic Hawaiian steel guitars and guitar string technology of the time.Basically you couldn't tune the first string any higher than E,and the E,A,and C tunings grew from that. |
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Rick Schmidt Member Posts: 1596 |
posted 30 October 2000 03:16 AM
Just to set the record straight....Jay Dee plays C6 plenty good thank you very much! |
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Steve Feldman Member Posts: 2983 |
posted 30 October 2000 06:55 AM
I know...Don't rub it in... SF |
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