posted 18 March 2001 01:46 PM         

It's fault tolerent. If something drifts a few cents one way or the other, it won't make a whole lot of difference. Maybe it's not a good idea for people who want to be perfectly in tune, but it works for me.

Here's the chart.

posted 19 March 2001 10:22 AM         

Tempered 3rds and 6ths are the most out of tune with their just counterparts, around 15 cents sharp. So I tune my Es, Bs and hi F# to 0, my G#s to around -15, hi D# to -10 or -14, lo F# to either 0 or -10 depending on the cycle of the moon, C#s to -15 or -18, As to -7, Ebs to -10 and Fs to anywhere between -20 and -30.

This is pretty close to the chart above if you subtract 5 from everything.

posted 19 March 2001 03:39 PM         

In fact I do NOT vibrato until after the picked note(s) have sustained for a moment of time. I used to, but after watching many of the greats, I began and have succeded in vibratoing only after the note has been picked. And so no way could vibrato cover being out of tune.

In fact even with vibrato it seems the ear would still hear the relative "Out" at any given instance of time.

Also, JI has NEVER been proven to be "IN tune"!! The fact that a person's ears loves to hear "NO beats", does not in itself mean that it is correct.

I still lean to the belief that ET is more correct. But our ears don't like it. It does seem that as musicians become more and more cultured to music and tuning, the more they tend to lean towards ET. As bad as it sounds initially.

Here is on of the things that leads me in that belief. JI is about as far from A-440 reference as most musicians EVER get. Yet many are somewhere in between JI and ET. Some more some less. So I have a problem with this. IF, one player tunes his C#'s to -10, another to -9, another to -8 and so on, somethin's gotta be wrong.

My point being, if all players, EITHER tuned JI or ET then the argument takes on real meaning, but that is NOT what happens. It could easily be said that among all players, they lie ANY where between JI and ET (assuming whole numbers) on all strings.

So again, as bad as ET has always sounded to me, I believe with all my heart that it is ultimately correct.

Oh well

posted 19 March 2001 07:18 PM         

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posted 19 March 2001 09:06 PM         

I noticed that most of your notes have the same tempering regardless of the string, pedal or knee lever where they occur. The exception seems to be the F# which varies widely from -5 to 0 to plus 5. Why is that?

posted 19 March 2001 10:39 PM         

We're playing a non-fixed-pitch instrument with paralax. My experience in playing with other people is, not everyone is always in tune, so a little vibrato helps out. Listen to the string section in an orchestra for example.

quote:

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Also, JI has NEVER been proven to be "IN tune"!! The fact that a person's ears loves to hear "NO beats", does not in itself mean
that it is correct.

I still lean to the belief that ET is more correct. But our ears don't like it. It does seem that as musicians become more and more
cultured to music and tuning, the more they tend to lean towards ET. As bad as it sounds initially.

Here is on of the things that leads me in that belief. JI is about as far from A-440 reference as most musicians EVER get. Yet
many are somewhere in between JI and ET. Some more some less. So I have a problem with this. IF, one player tunes his C#'s
to -10, another to -9, another to -8 and so on, somethin's gotta be wrong.

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I couldn't disagree more, Just intonation and equal temperment are tuning systems, that is, the relationship between notes. Just intonation is based on the relationships of the first 16 harmonics of the harmonic series, with the exception of the traditional tritone, which is the distance between the 32nd and the 45th harmonics. All of these ratios are consistent regardless of the fundamental, which could be A-440. The fact that they occur in nature, are harmonious to the ear and can be represented as small number ratios, at one time was used as proof of the harmony of the universe and these ratios were at times used by architects, giving rise to the phrase that architecture is frozen music.

Equal temperment, 12 equally spaced tones/octave, is a tuning system used primarily on fixed pitch instruments like pianos, that came into vogue in western music around the 17th century. The main reason being, so that a piece of music could be played in different keys and still sound the same.

Each of these systems is equally valid in context. Choirs will sing and non-fixed-pitch instruments will naturally play in Just, but add a piano, and everyone has to adjust to tempered tuning.

[This message was edited by chas smith on 19 March 2001 at 10:40 PM.]

posted 20 March 2001 07:00 AM         

quote:

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Choirs will sing and non-fixed-pitch instruments will naturally play in Just, but add a piano, and everyone has to adjust to tempered tuning.

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Bingo!
also... "frozen music" - liked it!

posted 20 March 2001 07:46 AM         

My keyboard rig consists of mostly "vintage" type keys - a combo organ (either a Vox Jaguar, a Farfisa VIP600 or a Kustom L1295,) a Moog analog synthesizer, and a sampler with Mellotron flute, strings, and choir samples. These keyboards are NEVER in tune to ANYTHING else in the band. But I throw some vibrato on the Moog, and some Leslie on the organ, and it sounds great! I was in a band once where we tuned down a half-step, and I had to learn how to play with all them little black keys! Imagine doing all your songs in Ab or Db...

Anyway, I agree that bar vibrato will go a long way towards evening out any minor tuning discrepancies. However you tune, if you like it, then it's right.

My 2¢
Matt Farrow

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Matt Farrow
Marlen 9-string 6+2
Kustom K150

http://surf.to/pharaohamps

posted 20 March 2001 10:27 AM         

quote:

---

I noticed that most of your notes have the same tempering regardless of the string, pedal or knee lever where they occur. The exception seems to be the F# which varies widely from -5 to 0 to plus 5. Why is that?

---

quote:

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How come you tune the G's to +10?

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quote:

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Is this near to the Non Critical Tuning (NCT) you mentioned a few months back?

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posted 21 March 2001 07:33 AM         

quote:

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Strangely enough, due to the extreme advance of technology the keyboard (which has been at the center of ET) is no longer a fixed pitch instrument. I believe that many good synths can be set up to play in JI. We just don't even think about asking the keyboard player to rig their unit this way, and go on perpetuating the useful, but limiting compromises of ET. I say pry apart the notes and let the wolf out again!

---

A couple of comments on that. My Korg T3 has the ability to change tunings on it. I've played around with it some. That's the extent of my knowledge on the subject, other than a somewhat partial knowledge of the mathematics behind it all.

First, the keyboard player would have to adjust his tuning for every song. If the song's in C, he'd have to select the just intonation tuning for C. If the song's in G, he'd have to select teh just intonation for G. Etc. If the song changed keys (typically for the last verse or chorus), he'd have to change tunings in the song. And I don't know WHAT he'd do when he played one of those songs that modulates between C and G and back to C, for example.

Second, I tried playing for a while using JI on the T3. And, yes, I was tuning it for C and playing in the key of C. To me, it just sounded awful. For some reason (and I don't know why), piano-type sounds just don't sound right in JI -- even though stringed instruments do.

I wish somebody could explain why. It seems to me that if I'm playing in C, and have the tuning set to JI for C, it should sound OK. Different, but OK. Hmmm, maybe Korg screwed up the tunings -- LOL.

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The Unofficial Photographer of The Wilkinsons

posted 21 March 2001 12:44 PM         

quote:

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It seems to me that if I'm playing in C, and have the tuning set to JI for C, it
should sound OK. Different, but OK. Hmmm, maybe Korg screwed up the tunings

---

posted 21 March 2001 02:34 PM         

quote:

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The problem with JI in C on a keyboard is that you would need two D notes. Try using meantone - it's sweeter than ET, but doesn't require more notes. I use meantone on my F Diatonic and it works really well.

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I'm not quite sure why you'd need 2 extra D notes (even after Chas' explanation). Why aren't they needed on a guitar that's tuned to JI?

I'm not really that familiar with "mean tone".

Also, I'm not positive what actual tuning the T3 was using. As I recall, you could select between ET (obviously), and a bunch of tunings simply called Cmaj, Cmin, C#maj, C#min, Dmaj, Dmin, etc. I guess I've always assumed those were JI tunings (at least the maj ones -- which may NOT have actually had the "maj" designator -- eg, it may have just been C, Cmin, C#, C#min, etc).

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The Unofficial Photographer of The Wilkinsons

posted 21 March 2001 11:40 PM         

[This message was edited by chas smith on 21 March 2001 at 11:43 PM.]

posted 22 March 2001 01:14 PM         

It's probably right under my nose somewhere, but could you explain what the ratios in the JI tuning refer to? For the life of me, I can't figure out how to tune a string to a ratio!

posted 22 March 2001 01:28 PM         

1/1, 16/15, (10/9, 9/8), 6/5, 5/4, 4/3, 45/32, 3/2, 8/5, 5/3, 16/9, 15/8, 2/1

where these numbers come from are the harmonics in the harmonic series and these ratios represent the intervals between them.

16- C                                  
15- B                                  
14- Bb
13- A
12- G
11- F#
10- E
9 - D
8 - C
7 - Bb
6 - G
5 - E
4 - C middle C
3 - G
2 - C   
1 - C

The perfect 5th, 3/2, is the interval between the 2nd and the 3rd harmonic and if you wanted to know the Just G above middle C - 261.6hz (from the tempered A-440 scale), multiply 261.6 times 3/2 = 392.4hz. You'll notice that there are other 5ths up there: 9/6, and 15/10 which reduce to 3/2, but then there's 13/9 which doesn't and this is the reason for the 10/9 major 2nd in the scale. The Just A above C-261.6 is 5/3 = A-436, the Just D, 9/8 = D-294.3, a perfect 5th below A-436 is 2/3 = D-290.6, so now we need two Ds, one for the A and one for the G.

A 5th below, such as F below C, a 4th above such as F above C. 4ths invert to 5ths invert to 4ths: 2/3 is a 5th below, an octave above that, 2/3 x 2/1 is 4/3. An octave below (1/2) G, 3/2 x 1/2 is 3/4. A 4th above is 4/3, a 4th below is 3/4. Minor 3rds invert to maj 6ths, maj 3rds invert to minor 6ths, maj 2nds invert to minor 7ths, minor 2nds invert to maj 7ths.

Both Just scales and tempered scales are symmetrical. A minor 2nd up 16/15 a minor 2nd down 15/8 (8/15); a maj 2nd up 9/8, a maj 2nd down 16/9 (9/16)....a P5 up 3/2, a P5 down 4/3 (2/3). The center point is the tritone, and on Temper scales, (12th root of 2 to the 6th power) it's dead center between the octave.

I need a break

[This message was edited by chas smith on 22 March 2001 at 01:29 PM.]

posted 22 March 2001 10:05 PM         

By the same token, when I took up the steel guitar, I wanted to know as much about it and it's history and how it evolved as I could.

Sometimes I just want to push the brake and stop the car, other times I want to know how the brakes work.

So, I'm sorry,'nuff said

[This message was edited by chas smith on 22 March 2001 at 10:06 PM.]

posted 23 March 2001 10:31 AM         

For whatever reasons:
1) My tuning changes from steel to steel.
2) Beats out open is not the same as beats out at the 9th fret.
3) If there was a perfect world and it actually was possible to perfectly tune a steel it would still sound out of tune when I played it unless my ear was happening.
4) Different strings of various ages need to be tuned differently.
5) On occasion I have found some pedalsteels impossible for me to get sounding in tune. If the overtones ring past the 5th or 6th partial while losing the first 3 it never sounds sweet to me.

It is great to study this stuff and I do think it helps me quite a bit. But, (and its a big butt ! ) ultimatly you gotta trust your ears.

posted 28 March 2001 10:37 AM         

Another dumb question: What do the red and blue colors on your chart mean?

And just to clarify my own, dim understanding, the point of your "non-critical" tuning is to hit a happy medium between JI and ET, sounding reasonably "in tune" in either context (alone or with others), that is also easy to use on a tuning meter, right?

Sorry to have been a pest about the ratios! Your answer told me just enough to: 1. understand what it was about, and 2. realize I didn't need to know any more to be a decent amateur player!

Thanks for a great thread!

[This message was edited by Birney Bull on 28 March 2001 at 10:55 AM.]

posted 28 March 2001 11:04 AM         

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The Unofficial Photographer of The Wilkinsons

posted 08 April 2001 10:39 AM         

The thing I have to keep reminding myself is that the "problem" is ours, not "the system"s; we're trying to make two different and almost but not quite incompatible ways of looking at pitch work together. One is intervals, ratios between notes, which are real physical phenomena, and the other is the instruments we build to make music on and their limitations of construction - any instrument that has more than one fixed pitch is going to have temperament problems. "Just Intonation" is really a goal, not a system.

When we try to think of music as being made up of a finite number of fixed pitches, instead of being about the relationships between pitches, we open a can of worms that we can't close. The payoff is all the wonderful possibilities of complex tonal harmony, but the headaches WON'T GO AWAY. The only reason it works at all is because our ears will tolerate intervals that are fairly out-of-tune - we'll accept a third fourteen cents sharp as if it were a "real" major third.

Equal temperament is the most flexible, the most artificial, the most sophisticated, and the most symmetrical of the limitless compromise temperaments we've come up with. In a way, it's the ultimate meantone system, because the comma is split into twelve equal parts. It only sounds best if you really need all keys to sound the same, though.

But I think Bob's really onto something when he points out that ET is about as out-of-tune as we can stand, and some lesser compromise often gives us some usable margin for error. This makes especial sense on the steel guitar, where only certain pitches and intervals are fixed. On lap steel, it's even more possible to use some purer intervals than the ET equivalents.