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Do or Can you tune your STEEL without a "Tuner"???? (Page 1)
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The Steel Guitar Forum
Pedal Steel Archive
Do or Can you tune your STEEL without a "Tuner"???? (Page 1)
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| This topic is 2 pages long: 1 2 This topic was originally posted in this forum: Pedal Steel |
| Author | Topic: Do or Can you tune your STEEL without a "Tuner"???? |
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Ed Naylor Member Posts: 1827 |
posted 15 September 2001 08:21 AM
There are so many topics about"Tuners" "Cents" " Cabinet Drop" etc. I am wondering how many steelers take the old fashioned approach and rely on the Human "EARS" to tune a Steel. I understand the importance of tuning the open "E" in pitch but beyond that -------- ?? Ed Naylor Steel Guitar Works |
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Al Udeen Member Posts: 1164 |
posted 15 September 2001 08:35 AM
Tune to an open E? Ricky Davis, Where are you? |
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Michael Holland Member Posts: 743 |
posted 15 September 2001 08:52 AM
Hi Ed, Long time no see! Good to have you back on the Forum, ol' buddy. I always tune my E's to straight up on the tuner and everything else is tuned by ear. There are valid reasons for tuning JI, especially your pulls, but experience (and ears) have taught me to tune the beats out, then maybe just nudge 'em a little more.. Just play on top of the fret and trust it. ------------------ |
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Gene Jones Member Posts: 5796 |
posted 15 September 2001 08:54 AM
Yes Ed, the open "E" may be the most important benchmark, but beyond that it is important that the steel be in tune with the rest of the band (especially with the guitar player since we share so many of the same notes) The electronic tuner is only a "guide", not the final authority. |
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Bob Mainwaring Member Posts: 918 |
posted 15 September 2001 10:09 AM
Like a lot of the guys out there; I tune the Es then let my ears do the walking. I found that during the first set of any given night - the steel is still settling down from the rumbling about in the car,set-up,room temp,finger/hand temp etc.. I have always felt that what got me interested in the steel first place, was the records out there with all that beautiful music not having been tuned with an electronic tuner. When I have concerted some effort into tuning, (on rare occasions) i.e. going through all the open strings and pulls, it dosent take long before my ears take over and I`m back to square one again. Like most steelers I know, we have developed a thing I call "tunyitus" which maintains tuning sanctity in the band. Even though the guitar players have tuned their instruments,with pushing/pulling their particular strings; they need to tune. They all dont have a tuner plugged straight through their equipement either. Bob Mainwaring. Z.Bs.and other weird things. ------------------ |
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Jerry Horner Member Posts: 286 |
posted 15 September 2001 10:11 AM
I have always tuned by ear. Sometimes with an E other times an A. Here again I believe a lot of steel players are depending on to many electronic gadgets to do a lot of their playing for them. Don't get me wrong, I am not downing any electronics. I'm just saying that I think we depend on them to much sometimes. Jerry |
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Jack Stoner Sysop Posts: 8119 |
posted 15 September 2001 10:43 AM
Like all the other threads on this same subject, yes I can tune by ear but I usually don't. Too noisy on stage to do it, I can plug my tuner in and be in my own little world while I tune. |
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ajm Member Posts: 556 |
posted 15 September 2001 12:27 PM
Just a few thoughts on the subject from a certified non-professional. I have a guitar with 4 pedals and 5 knees. Let's assume that the guitar was tuned up properly at one point in time (including all of the pedals and levers). Then someone comes along and messes with all of the tuning keys. If I could get even one string in tune, with all of the changes that give notes in unison (the 4th string lower to Eb for example) I think I could probably get the rest of the guitar in tune given enough time. The same is probably true for tuning the changes as well, but it may take a little longer. After all, how many times have you been playing along and notiiced that something just sounded a little bit off, you whipped out the tuner, and found that the tuning of several strings has drifted out? Your ears can usually tell you when it's right or not. I think that this just leads back to the fact that using a tuner is just quicker, and as Jack Stoner eluded to, on stage you can never get the other instruments or the drummer (uh-oh, that's a joke guys) to shut up long enough to tune by ear. Not to mention the advantage that if everyone uses the tuner, then you all get started off from the same reference point. Also, the tuning/tuner thing is probably most valid when you're doing open strings. After that, bar placement and unintentional slanting probably take over in terms of significance. As a final thought, how many of us actually practice tuning? If you strum all of the strings from low to high, can you tell if one is out? Many, many, many years ago there was a cartoon series of the Beatles. As an intro to the individual segments/episodes, the theme music started off with an electric guitar with each of the six strings played slowly from low to high. Somehow this got burned into my mind, and to this day I still start off tuning my "regular" guitars that way. Anybody else remember this show? |
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Ricky Davis Moderator Posts: 6522 |
posted 15 September 2001 12:35 PM
Hey Al; without getting waaaaaaaay into it like I normally do   ....E9th is a non-pedal tuning on my pedal steel. I consider my pedal steel a "Pedal Steel" and the tuning for a pedal Steel is an "A" tuning. So I tune to "A" 440 and not "E" 440. I do use a tuner on stage....but I know where every note goes on my tuner....because of sitting down and tuning by ear many many times and mapping it out on my tuner; so I can tune on stage without making tons of noise and not being able to hear myself anyways.Ricky |
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Tom Campbell Member Posts: 379 |
posted 15 September 2001 02:21 PM
I play steel now, but played lead guitar in bands for many years. We always tuned to an open E provided by the piano/keyboard player. If you weren't in tune with the keyboard, you sounded like CRAP! Consequently, we didn't concern ourselves with electronic tuners and "cents", because you were going to be out "dollars" by not being hired back, if you didn't sound good! |
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Al Udeen Member Posts: 1164 |
posted 15 September 2001 02:53 PM
Tom! You say you tuned open to an E provided by a piano! thats not an E provided by a tuner, that is a correct E that is in sync with A440! enough said! |
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ajm Member Posts: 556 |
posted 15 September 2001 03:00 PM
Tom, this brings up an interesting question. If you had a piano and it was the old fashioned acoustic kind where you couldn't vary the pitch, what then? If it was far enough out and you tuned the steel open strings to it, then would all of the pedals be out of tune? You'd probably have to retune the whole guitar, right? Of course, if the piano was close enough no one would probably notice anyway. |
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Moon in Alaska Member Posts: 1155 |
posted 15 September 2001 04:46 PM
Well, It's not surprising that all the OLD TIMERS can tune without a tuner, as most of them played many years before even hearing about a tuner !! My experience with tuners only goes back about 10 years and I have played steel more than 50 years. Now after saying that, it is handy to use one in a noisy place. ------------------ |
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Donny Hinson Member Posts: 9192 |
posted 15 September 2001 05:02 PM
Give me an "E" and I'm good to go! Seriously...every time I get out the tuner and try to make things perfect (tuning all opens and pulls with the tuner), I wind up tuning for half-an-hour, and no closer in playing tune than I was when I started. Some players use charts and such, and that's fine. But I have a hard time just remembering the string guages, let alone the "cents", plus or minus on the opens and pulls. I really don't care how anyone tunes, because that's only half the picture. You have to be able to play in tune too, That's what's important!!! You HAVE to train your ear, because the tuner only helps while you're tuning. Once you put the bar on the strings, and start playing, the damn tuner is useless! I've seen some players take a guitar that's in "reasonable tune" (I can hear them when they tune, and I know it's close), and then play so far out of tune that I had to get up and leave. |
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Bob Carlson Member Posts: 1063 |
posted 15 September 2001 05:31 PM
I'm not a long time steel player, but I've played standard for many years, and there Is one thing they both have In commmon. A standard must be tuned twice. First open with them tuning things up on the head stock. Then you must go to the 12th fret, and with your finger holding the string down, tune It again with the screws on your bridge. It's called intonation. If you don't do It, you'll be In tune up by the nut but not as you go up the neck. I think thats what makes a steel sound so out tune at the 12th fret If It's tuned In tune. That Is what made tempered tuning make sense to me. I first use the tuner to get me In the ball park. Then I also use my ears to finsh. And then sometimes I use small bar slants If I'm off a little. Bob Carlson |
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Vern Kendrick Member Posts: 442 |
posted 15 September 2001 07:13 PM
What's a tuner.....??? |
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Jerry Horner Member Posts: 286 |
posted 15 September 2001 07:14 PM
How can something so simple as tuning a guitar become so complicated? Jerry |
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Chris Schlotzhauer Member Posts: 1217 |
posted 15 September 2001 07:28 PM
I'm with Ricky. I tune only mt E's (pedals down), then chime the rest. When I get into a high stage or crowd noise, I then refer to my tuner, where I know every string pitch that is close. |
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Al Marcus Member Posts: 7471 |
posted 15 September 2001 08:12 PM
I have always tune by ear for all those years. But You have to tune with the piano or lead guitar, whatever his A or E is. Then I tune my strings to that. But again, I have used a tuner on the bandstand, it sure is handy with all that noise....al |
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Tom Campbell Member Posts: 379 |
posted 15 September 2001 08:15 PM
To Al Undeen Al, we use to follow Jerry Lee Lewis' act from ballroom to ballroom (sometimes a day or two to a week later. The ballrooms were notorious for not having their pianos tuned. He would beat the H--- out of a piano! It was never in sync to a true A440...an electronic tuner (if there were one available at that time) would be of no practical use. We did the best we could! |
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Al Udeen Member Posts: 1164 |
posted 15 September 2001 09:34 PM
Tom. I did the same thing for many years! We would get an E from the piano & go from there, If the piano was flat or sharp, we were all flat or sharp, but we were in tune!? or were we? Today I would get an A from the piano & tune my 6th string, pedals down to that! Now Ricky! get ready to go a bit farther! > Al Udeen |
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Dave Van Allen Member Posts: 5369 |
posted 16 September 2001 12:08 AM
quote: pedals |
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Bill C. Buntin Member Posts: 642 |
posted 16 September 2001 04:13 AM
Yes. |
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Bobby Lee Sysop Posts: 14849 |
posted 16 September 2001 09:35 AM
The harmonies on a modern pedal steel with 4 or 5 pedals and 5 knee levers are complex! I can tune 3+3 by ear pretty well, but when it gets beyond that I'll stick with the tuner. Also, the tuner is real fast on the bandstand. Your guitar can sound in tune with itself when it has drifted 5 cents sharp or flat (common on outdoor gigs). I don't trust my ears to tune on the bandstand anymore unless I'm playing without pedals and have a real good reference pitch. ------------------ |
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Double ya sea Edgar unregistered Posts: 14849 |
posted 16 September 2001 10:01 AM
I will NOT tune WITHOUT a tuner regardless of the situation. Your ears will lie to you, especially in for instance a really humid enviroment. After working at opryland USA in Nashville a couple years back in the 90's I found out real quick that from the time the note leaves the amp till it hits your ears, it can change depending on the density of the air, such as in high humidity. At opryland we had our amps in front of us and used them more or less for our personal monitors. A good example of this is in automobile racing where some drag cars will run faster or slower in lower or higher humidity or perhaps faster or slower at different altitudes. Also in some situations you have think about your estacheon tubes and having a reverse vaccum in them which causes you to hear things different. I get a lot of sinus crap and that really affects that inner ear and also for this reason I will always use my korg rack tuner. As to all the hype about the cabnet drop and stuff, on a live situation with crowd noise, you can not hear enough of the cabnet drop to justify tuning different. You could in the studio, but not live. Unless you have dog ears. Thanks WC www.steelwc.bigstep.com [This message was edited by Double ya sea Edgar on 16 September 2001 at 10:04 AM.] [This message was edited by Double ya sea Edgar on 16 September 2001 at 10:09 AM.] |
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Joe Henry Member Posts: 909 |
posted 16 September 2001 11:00 AM
quote: Having played standard guitar for 20 years before switching to steel, I think itīs safe to say that the process described above applies only if the strings are new. In fact, itīs not recommended "checking the intonation" (on the bridge saddles) if the strings are already on for a while. Of course, a hard-working guitarist who changes strings before every gig may have to do it more often. |
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Bob Farlow Member Posts: 895 |
posted 16 September 2001 11:49 AM
Vern -- as Norman would say: " I know dat's right". |
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rayman unregistered Posts: 895 |
posted 16 September 2001 04:13 PM
I'm with Double Ya Sea on this. I just did a job last night outside. The temperature dropped fifteen degrees to fourty four degrees. We were all freezing and the instruments would not hold tune for more than a few minutes. The idea of tuning by ear on stage is totally out of the question. Your ears will lie to you. What if the bass player and guitar player's e's both go sharp and flat at the same time? Who do you believe? Tuning on stage by ear making alot of noise is not acceptable in a professional band where things have to go off like clock work. I have also seen tuners in the same band that were off calibration. We check our tuners against each other about once a month. A tuner is also useful in determining when your guitar is mechanically out of regulation or acting up. Tuning by ear in a low volume non professional setting is fine. I have seen some of the grand masters tune for almost ten minutes with a tuner before playing at the convention, and then adjust after that while playing. |
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Bob Hoffnar Member Posts: 4278 |
posted 16 September 2001 09:09 PM
I pretty much do what Ricky does. I do not use a tuner when I practice because it helps to develope my ear. If I relied on a tuner instead of my ears then I would get stuck having to explain why my intonation really is much better than it sounds Bob |
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gary darr Member Posts: 294 |
posted 17 September 2001 07:56 PM
This is slightly off the topic but for most of my life I have worn a hearing aid and every night when I take it off it leaves me with a faint ringing sound in my ears.It didnt occure to me at first that the ringing was at the same frequency each time. About three weeks ago I would get out my guitar to see if the sound was the same every time,well it was and just happend to be a "A" note. This could be handy when no tuners are around and I need a reference note. Is there any others with similar experence ? kinda strange huh... ------------------ |
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Gene Jones Member Posts: 5796 |
posted 18 September 2001 03:49 AM
For the old timers before tuners and with no piano to tune with....the "hum" from a florescent light in "B" was used to find standard pitch. |
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Carl West Member Posts: 429 |
posted 18 September 2001 07:50 AM
For years I tuned to E Flat to avoid constant string breakage on my Fender 2000. I used a tuning fork as the reference note and then by ear. In my opinion, tuners are great for the correct pitch, then your ears need to do the rest. Carl West |
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Bobby Lee Sysop Posts: 14849 |
posted 18 September 2001 09:26 AM
AC hum is flat of B. |
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Michael Johnstone Member Posts: 2535 |
posted 18 September 2001 11:45 AM
According to the late,great Danny Gatton,a telephone dial tone is close enough to F to tune your guitar to and he did it for years. I was in one band in the old days before tuners where I would tune to the singer's blues harmonica collection.Actually,since most guys just use their tuners to tune the E,A or C notes,why not just go back to holding an E,A or C tuning fork over the pickup like everybody did in the 70s? They're real easy on batteries and I was probably just as in tune then as I am now.Although these days I really don't need to tune my Sierra - it's already in tune. -MJ- |
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Gene Jones Member Posts: 5796 |
posted 18 September 2001 12:57 PM
....but it's a lot closer to "standard" than most bands would be after having tuned up five or six times without the benefit of any other reference point...... |
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Al Udeen Member Posts: 1164 |
posted 18 September 2001 03:38 PM
After so many long threads on tuning, I would think by now,that everyone has it down to a science! If not, For the few that are starting out, I would suggest going back on this wonderful forum, and see what Ricky Davis has posted time & again, Good Luck & God Bless America! |
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Bill C. Buntin Member Posts: 642 |
posted 20 September 2001 05:18 PM
Bobby, I am a Supv. at a Steam Electric Generating Plant. So AC hum is MY business. I was wondering if anyone out there had recognized the pitch of 60 cycle electricity. Wonder what the pitch is in Europe (50 Hz.) |
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Jim Smith Member Posts: 6399 |
posted 20 September 2001 06:38 PM
b0b said: quote: |
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Vern Kendrick Member Posts: 442 |
posted 21 September 2001 07:55 PM
Bob,...actually I believe in tuners,I think everybody else in the group should use one.however in the studio you get used to tuning to the piano,and tuning a steel gets easy after 20 or 30 yr.s |
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Ed Kuhns Member Posts: 20 |
posted 26 September 2001 01:09 PM
I have always tuned the high E to a tuning fork and the rest by ear. Pedals up or down doesn't seem to matter. I guess I'm one of the "everybody"'s because I was doing this in the 70's. To solve the room noise problem I velcro-ed a small practice amp to the underside of my steel and go thru headphones. I think it's a very important part of playing this instrument to be able to tune by ear and also adjust your intonation (by bar position) to keep in tune while you play. Ed |
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