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Lloyd Green Tempered Chart? (Page 2)
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The Steel Guitar Forum
Pedal Steel Archive
Lloyd Green Tempered Chart? (Page 2)
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| This topic is 2 pages long: 1 2 This topic was originally posted in this forum: Pedal Steel |
| Author | Topic: Lloyd Green Tempered Chart? |
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Dennis Detweiler Member Posts: 1700 |
posted 06 February 2002 05:47 PM
Dave...that was my point earlier. If you tune open E sharp. It will sound sharp if the guitar player, etc, tune straight up to E. However, your open A will sound in tune. If you tune open E straight up, then you will be in tune with the guitar player, etc, in E, but will be flat in A. So...you have to choose E or A open? All other frets can be covered sharp or flat with the bar and a little vibrato if desired? I very seldom play open E or A chords. In a studio situation, I suppose you could tune A or E open, depending on the key of the song. On a gig of many songs it's a toss up? Yes? No? As far as the .022w on the 6th string. I used to use the wound until I added the G# to F# change. Now .020p. The .022w is easier to tune. Not sure if this thread has a "correct method" of tuning? It may be in the ear of the beholder? Dennis |
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Carson Leighton Member Posts: 254 |
posted 06 February 2002 07:10 PM
The answer to the question is "yes". I think Bruce, Paul and the others are tuning closer to JI. In this case, even with the E's tuned sharp, the thirds will be dropped close to -0-, the same as they are on a 6 string. The amount of sharpness on the E-s will be compensated by amount of flatness on the G#'s, and when they both play the E chord, that amount of sharpness won't be that noticeable. Now, to get the open -A- chord sounding right, they bring up their C#'s closer to -0-, and they can do this because they have sharped the E's, which in turn will make them sharp the -A-s using harmonics. The reason they tune this way is because they don't like the sound of sharped thirds. This amount is only fractional, the E's only being approx. 8 cents sharp or 2 beats per second. This type of tuning is close to "just intonation", in that the intervals are very close to "pure" or "beatless" and it will work. I don't tune this way myself, but lots of people do, and they are good enough with the bar that they sound great with other equal tempered instruments........Carson [This message was edited by Carson Leighton on 06 February 2002 at 07:14 PM.] |
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Dennis Detweiler Member Posts: 1700 |
posted 06 February 2002 10:32 PM
Carson...that makes sense. I can see where the open E and A chord would be closer that way. I tried tuning slightly sharp one weekend and I just sounded out of tune all night. I dropped back with E's straight up the next weekend and it sounded better. Maybe I'll give it another shot and see what happens. Or maybe split the difference? My cabinet drop is only .5hz, so maybe that should be factored in? I wonder if a piano has cabinet drop when you push one of the 3 pedals?  Or how about when a babe sits on the piano?I suppose there's a babe weight to Hz factor? Ahh!..so much theory here! Dennis |
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Ricky Davis Moderator Posts: 6522 |
posted 07 February 2002 01:59 AM
Just push your A and B pedals down and hold them down while you tune your E note to 440. Now let off your A and B pedals and play that E note now......and look at it on the tuner...Ok got it.??? ok now that is what you tune your E note to.....and your good to go... "It is ok to be a little sharpe....." " It is NEVER ok to be flat....".....this is a statement from the worlds best Orchestra......"Sharp adds an excitment; Flat adds DEATH to the song". BTW...that orchestra tunes sharp to 440.....ah........ha  .Ricky |
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Carson Leighton Member Posts: 254 |
posted 07 February 2002 04:04 AM
Dennis, it really doesn't matter a whole lot where you put that E or A as long as it isn't any more that 8-10 cents sharp. Lower would be better, and would be more consistent with the open tuning on a 5 string, sorry, I mean a 6 string. If you flatten these notes a little, you will be automatically sharping the 3rds. It all boils down to this: If you drop your reference points, such and A and E (we are dealing with two different tunings on one neck), then you will have to drop your thirds which isn't good (just intonation). Now your thirds are so flat, that when they become the root note of another chord, you must drop the next third also. Got it? Try to keep your thirds (c#'s and G#'s as close to -0- as possible, with your E's to within 8 cents sharp. I guarantee you will be in tune with the band. When the babe sits on the piano, it generates heat, thus causing the pitch of piano and other things to rise....Have a good day.....Carson |
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Bill Hankey Member Posts: 1680 |
posted 07 February 2002 04:16 AM
Lloyd Green with his powerful insight, was the originator of the E to F change, which has become a one of the most important changes associated with the E9th tuning. It was heard when he backed Tammy's "D-i-v-o-r-c-e",the well known hit in a time when steel guitars were largely responsible in bringing an artist to the attention of country music aficionados. After delving into the uses of the E to F change, I would be lost musically, without its availability. The downside of the change, I discovered, is when a player steps on the "A" pedal, and applies the knee to the E to F lever, two mechanical influences throw the steel out of tune. But........., not to be thwarted by this change that made its way to the music circles without specifics in terms of detuning, a player is obliged to install a compensator. I believe this notion of twisting the bar is nothing more than visual frustration. The accurate glissing, and note bending is attainable by the proper use of mechanical means. Namely, pedal, and knee levers. Focusing on the 6th string, to find inconsistencies that are rampant, could very well expel a host of ongoing tuning problems. Bill H. |
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Paul Graupp Member Posts: 3199 |
posted 07 February 2002 07:21 AM
Well Bill; you've got my undivided attention on this post because it has been a thorn in my side for a long long time. However your solution has completely evaded me. More discussion please......... Regards, Paul |
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Carson Leighton Member Posts: 254 |
posted 07 February 2002 07:26 AM
You've got my attention too. Bill, where would one put a compensator, on the knee or the A pedal?......Carson [This message was edited by Carson Leighton on 07 February 2002 at 07:29 AM.] |
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Ray Jenkins Member Posts: 1986 |
posted 07 February 2002 07:48 AM
Me too Bill,my 6th string drives me nuts,I raise it and lower it.Emmons P/P (lay finger horizontal to lips,move it up and down making that I'm nuts sound) RayP.S I'n not really bald,I've just pulled all my hair out!! ------------------ Steeling is still legal in Arizona [This message was edited by Ray Jenkins on 07 February 2002 at 07:49 AM.] |
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Bobby Lee Sysop Posts: 14849 |
posted 07 February 2002 08:46 AM
If the pedaled C# is tuned beatless to the G# string, the F lever should be tuned beatless a third above the C#. (It's actually an E#, not an F.) No compensator should be required for the major chord, unless your guitar has cabinet problems that detune the G#-C# interval when you engage the F lever. I compensate my 9th string on my F lever, lowering it so that the D-F interval is in tune for diminished chords. I doubt that Lloyd does, though... ------------------ |
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Bill Hankey Member Posts: 1680 |
posted 07 February 2002 10:12 AM
Paul G, Carson L, and Ray J., Thank you gentlemen for your inquiries. A number of years ago, I noticed that when I glissed down Bill H. |
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Larry Bell Member Posts: 4116 |
posted 07 February 2002 10:39 AM
Tuning is simple. Either you sound in tune (to yourself and listeners) or you don't. If you can fool all the people all the time, you are in tune better than most of us. However, if you put it under an electron microscope (an electronic tuner), you will see things that will keep you up at night. My approach is to tune pedals down so that the E's are at 0. Pedals up this is 5-10 cents sharp (or A=441 or 442) depending on detuning characteristics of the guitar. I tune the pedal changes by ear and then sharp the 3rds and 6ths until they offend me -- then bring them back down slightly. My 3rd and 6th end up about 5 cents flat and the F's about 10-15 cents flat. It is right on the verge of sounding out of tune when playing alone, but That's what works for me. ------------------ [This message was edited by Larry Bell on 07 February 2002 at 10:44 AM.] |
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Jim Phelps Member Posts: 2936 |
posted 07 February 2002 10:59 AM
I'm with Larry. I want to be as in-tune and accurate as I can but keep "the electron microscope" reasonable. I'd be interested in knowing if anyone has been able to measure and verify the pitch of any of the great violinists such as Jascha Heifetz or Iztak Perlman...I'd bet according to a strobe every single note isn't absolutely exact, but their playing still sounds perfect even when playing 2 or 3 notes at a time. I'd be happy to sound as good. [This message was edited by Jim Phelps on 07 February 2002 at 11:00 AM.] |
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Jim Smith Member Posts: 6399 |
posted 07 February 2002 11:11 AM
Music isn't mathematically perfect, that's why God invented vibrato. |
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Doug Childress Member Posts: 223 |
posted 07 February 2002 01:08 PM
quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- you wouldn't push both A and B pedals at once to tune the "pedals down" notes individually. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- That's exactly how I do it! I tune the A's, C#'s, F#'s, and E's with both pedals down. I tune the G#'s with the A pedal down and the C#'s with the B pedal down. I do go back and forth a little, especially when the open pitch changes from the last tuning, but this method seems to compensate for most of the cabinet drop.
Jim, I tune a lot of notes with both pedals , or a pedal and a lever engaged also. But, I just start with me E's at 442 and then tune by ear. My explanation above about using just one lever at a time was intended for the question that was asked about the Newman Chart. I've never seen it specified that both pedals should be pushed at the same time for tuning those notes. I'm still just guessing, though. I doubt Jeff N. would assume beginners would automatically push down both pedals to tune without that being specified in his instructions. In one of Newman's Tab books (I believe it's "Just Jammin") he specifically shows to tune with multiple pedals down. He tunes the A pedal with A&B down and the B pedal with A&B down and the C pedal with B&C down. He always tunes his E's to 442.5 hz. |
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Doug Childress Member Posts: 223 |
posted 07 February 2002 01:10 PM
quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- you wouldn't push both A and B pedals at once to tune the "pedals down" notes individually. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- That's exactly how I do it! I tune the A's, C#'s, F#'s, and E's with both pedals down. I tune the G#'s with the A pedal down and the C#'s with the B pedal down. I do go back and forth a little, especially when the open pitch changes from the last tuning, but this method seems to compensate for most of the cabinet drop.
Jim, I tune a lot of notes with both pedals , or a pedal and a lever engaged also. But, I just start with me E's at 442 and then tune by ear. My explanation above about using just one lever at a time was intended for the question that was asked about the Newman Chart. I've never seen it specified that both pedals should be pushed at the same time for tuning those notes. I'm still just guessing, though. I doubt Jeff N. would assume beginners would automatically push down both pedals to tune without that being specified in his instructions. |
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Jeff A. Smith Member Posts: 807 |
posted 07 February 2002 03:05 PM
quote: That's informative, Thanks. I don't have any of Jeff N.'s material, but I did try his E9 charts for awhile, as they are shown on his web site, or in the Dewitt Scott instruction book. Those sources, along with discussions on here, didn't mention any specific pedal usage. Jeff N. being such a thorough and consummate instructor, I just assumed....But maybe sometimes the feeling is that the chart is enough to get people started, without having to get too in-depth about pedal usage and stuff. Well then, another possible explanation for Dave Birkett's question is what Jack Stoner told me when I was asking him about the chart. Jeff N. went to A442.5 because open (no bar) chords otherwise sounded flat with other instruments, since many (but not all) the notes are tuned so flat if the E's are at WHAT CORRESPONDS to A440. [This message was edited by Jeff A. Smith on 07 February 2002 at 03:13 PM.] |
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