Author
|
Topic: Bakelite Tuning Machine ?
|
Rick Aiello Member From: Berryville, VA USA
|
posted 26 May 2002 05:25 PM
profile send email edit
I need a tuning machine for a pre-war bakelite. I have read the archieved info (and it was very helpful) ... Seems like using a Martin Butterbean Vintage .... is the closest fit. I also saw someone used Grovers without the bushings?? Has anyone had success WITHOUT altering the bakelite (hole) .... I'll file the posts down by hand if I have to but I ain't gonna ream out the bakelite. I only need one and could care less if it matches the others (they are open gear with metal butterbean knobs). If worse comes to worse I'll take a tuner off my Silver Hawaiian and then modify it to take the larger post ... but that would be a last resort. Any help would be greatly appreciated !![This message was edited by Rick Aiello on 26 May 2002 at 09:17 PM.] |
C Dixon Member From: Duluth, GA USA
|
posted 26 May 2002 07:41 PM
profile send email edit
Rick,I searched the world over for two tuning keys for my pre '37 Rick 7 string. I was unable to find a suitable replacement. Finally found a man who had a Rick where the neck had broken. He sent me two keys which were sooo badly worn, they have much slack. But it is better than nothing. I hope you have better luck than I did. God bless you in your quest, carl |
Ray Montee Member From: Portland, OR, USA
|
posted 26 May 2002 11:26 PM
profile send email edit
Rick and others: A friend of mine discovered that a certain set of mandolin tuning pegs, 3 and/or 4 to a strip....work beautifully; look like the originals; and don't require any drilling out of holes on the Rickenbacher. If you need more info' on this let me know. BY the way, there is a fellow here in Oregon that has done a magnificent job of "mending" the broken necks of Bakelite Ricks. The ones I have seen, one of which I owned...., was repaired in such a way that it almost looked factory. These guitars were broken just between the first set of tuning pegs and the nut. |
Rick Aiello Member From: Berryville, VA USA
|
posted 27 May 2002 06:23 AM
profile send email edit
Ray, I was hopin' someone would come through for me ... doesn't surprise me it was you I emailed ya for details ... What brand of mandolin tuners ??? ... I'm sure either Allparts, Stewart-MacDonald, or Elderly would have them. Carl, maybe your "quest" may finally come to an end with these mandolin tuners ... [This message was edited by Rick Aiello on 27 May 2002 at 06:32 AM.] |
C Dixon Member From: Duluth, GA USA
|
posted 27 May 2002 07:16 AM
profile send email edit
Ray and Rick, I don't know if my Rick is just an oddball or not, but let me go into a little bit further detail concerning my frustrations trying to find a suitable replacement for the tuning keys. Several large music stores in the Atlanta area were kind enough to let me go thru boxes and barrels of tuning keys. I found hundreds of 4 and 3 keystrips as well as individual keys, parts and accessories. The problem was NOTHING found was satisfactory. Here are some of the problems: 1. pegs were too short (the bakelite covered part or all of the hole in the peg). 2. pegs were too long. "Jes' don't look right" as Red Skelton used to say. 3. Pegs were to fat. Would have required enlarging the holes. Since one does NOT get a second chance with bakelite, I was not about to enlarge them. 4. The spacing on the keystrips were not the same as the rick. 5. Unable to find a 3 keystrip and a 4 keystrrip that come ANY where close to matching estheticaly. 6. Unable to find a single part that would be an exact replacement for that respective part on the Rick. Upon close examination of my Rick, I discovered some real quirks. One of the most odd quirk is; the spacing between the keys on the 4 keystrip are NOT all the same. This I found to be very odd. Whether this was typical on 7 string Ricks or not, I simply do not know. But it is certainly true on mine. The peg diameter appears to have been custom designed on the Rick. NO peg I tried fit like the original. NO key strip I looked at had the mounting holes in the same place which would have required redrilling and tapping. Again, I shuttered at the thought of this. I spent months and months on this. I called everywhere. Some I spoke to, had experienced my plight. The consensus was; Rickenbacher used somebody to build a special set of 3 and 4 keystrips that NO body else in the business made. Whether Rickenbacher manaufactured them themselves or farmed it out is in question. Interesting bit of Trivia. Tom Brumley aquired his long sought after 7 stringer about the same time I found mine. On Tom's guitar somebody had tackled the problem. And went at it with a vengeance They had removed the strips entirely and replaced them with individual and modern looking enclosed keys. The job at best was second rate. And Tom tried every way to trade me. EVEN with my two broken keys. (One on each strip). After years of trying everything I knew to do. I simply gave up. I had to tune the guitar using a pair of pliers on the two broken keys. It was not until my dear friend down in Texas sent me the two keystrips from a broken neck Rick. And while these are better than I had, the slop is soo bad they are very near slipping past the gear. So, If you too wonderful people find a good replacment, PLEASE let me know. I simply struck out. May our Lord richly bless you always, carl |
Rick Aiello Member From: Berryville, VA USA
|
posted 27 May 2002 09:08 AM
profile send email edit
Carl, what an ORDEAL you have been through ... Here are the specs (as close as I can get with a tape measure): Diameter of post = 7/32" Height of post = 1" (from back of headstock) Distance between mounting screws = 15/16" Distance between adjacent posts = 1 3/8" Distance between top mounting screw on 1st and bottom mounting screw on 3rd post (for strip tuners?) = 3 5/8" [This message was edited by Rick Aiello on 27 May 2002 at 09:11 AM.]
|
John Hanusch Member From: Tucson, AZ
|
posted 27 May 2002 03:57 PM
profile send email edit
Good to see this exchange here. I've a '35, 6-string Baklite without original tuners. I found some at the Dallas show back in March & hope they might be the right ones. They're nickel, 3-on-1 strips, open gear Grovers, with "mustachioed" ends. There are six groups of 4 very light-coined grooves running the length of each strip. One end of strips is stamped "Top", and a curved "Grover" is stamped near the middle gear. They have ordinary oval-shaped metal buttons. Some of the gears & pegs/posts have been changed, but I've been able to get them back to pretty much matched & all working fine. I'd like to know if anyone might know if these are like the originals. They must be close, because, I, similar to what Mr. Dixon has been doing, have gone thru bushels of old tuners and these are the ONLY ones that match the original mount-screw hole pattern. A lot have matched 3 out of 4 of the holes. Anyway, I'd like to post a picture here, but don't know how, but willing to if someone can tell me how (without going thru Bob or Lori & having to pay for it). Also I could email a file to some if they know how to readily post it here. Finally, I'd like to see or have someone send a picture of what you guys are talking about. Are you'll talking about individual units for each string/peg/post or the 3 or 4-on 1 strips or both?? Again, I'm interested mostly in the correct, original ones for a '35, 6-string Bakelite. Thanks for any input here.[This message was edited by John Hanusch on 27 May 2002 at 04:05 PM.] |
Rick Aiello Member From: Berryville, VA USA
|
posted 27 May 2002 05:17 PM
profile send email edit
John, the ones I have (and need) are the individual tuners ... Although I would gladely take off the good ones if I had the strips that fit. Do you have any more info on your strips ... did they FIT WITHOUT DRILLING???From what I have read (a whole lot lately) there were NO ORIGINAL Ricky tuners. Seems like they used whatever was available at the time. My '37 Silver has different style individual tuners than my bakelites, although the specs (listed above) are the same. It is open geared with butterbean knobs. One bakelite is open geared with metal butterbean knobs (but is a different design than the Silver). The other 2 bakelites are open geared with white plastic knobs (I have successfully preplaced those crumblin' jobs). I have another Ricky from that era (Academy) that has closed back, 3 on a strip. I'll leave the notion of "original" to the collectors ... I just want function !!! Trust me, I WILL come up with a safe solution ... I'm like my english bulldog ... stubborn with a one track mind. I have sent emails to all the big suppliers with the above specs ... I will post any favorable outcomes ... and my files are ready to trim down anything that comes close. |
chris ivey Member From: sacramento, ca. usa
|
posted 27 May 2002 06:52 PM
profile send email edit
i've got an old rick and i replaced the tuners with some individual open geared 'waiverly style' martin & co. tuners. all chrome. they work great, look good and the holes just about line up. i reamed out the holes on the tuners sightly...not on the bakelite. |
Rick Aiello Member From: Berryville, VA USA
|
posted 27 May 2002 07:01 PM
profile send email edit
Thanks Chris, that is 2 votes for the Martin Butterbeans. The guy in the archieves said he had to ream out his headstock holes by about 1/64" for them to fit....but that was a Silver Hawaiian..... He also mentioned having to "elongate' the mounting holes some..but that the screw heads covered this up.Things are lookin up [This message was edited by Rick Aiello on 27 May 2002 at 07:04 PM.] |
Ray Montee Member From: Portland, OR, USA
|
posted 27 May 2002 10:30 PM
profile send email edit
Hey fellows! Way out here in Oregon, Portland the city of...there is a small guitar shop that overhauled an early Rick Bakelite. They not only had the broken neck glued back in place, but they did ream out the tuner holes and replaced the mismatched and worn/broken tuning pegs with a near identical to original type tuners. I bought that guitar which was later stolen...but it was a nice job; professionally completed and at a nominal price for all the work that was performed. It sounded great. A year or so later I chanced to meet another fellow who had had his Rick's neck reglued following a breakage just beyond the nut......and he too, was quite satisfied. The shoppe is: The TWELFTH FRET, 2402 S.E. Belmont St., Portland, OR 97214; phone (503) 231-1912. They specialize in REPAIRS/Restorations and I consider them to be highly skilled craftsmen, IMHO. |
John Hanusch Member From: Tucson, AZ
|
posted 28 May 2002 09:41 AM
profile send email edit
Rick, yes, the strips as I described above fit on my '35 Bake. with no drilling. I suspect it originally came this way or someone did a very good job positioning/drilling/tapping those unusual 3-48 threads. When I got the guitar a couple years ago, it had new style indiv. Grovers on it. (I filled the extra holes & enlarged peg holes with Devcon High Strength Epoxy (black), & this stuff cures out dense & tuff.) My '35 Frypan has similar Grover open-geared strips on it, but one of the middle mount holes is shifted about 1/16th". I haven't seen any of the closed-back (Klusons) until the late '40's models. A '40 Bake I just got, has these Martin style (Grover stamped) open-gear individuals, butterbean buttons, that I guess is what you guys are taking about. Just curious -- did these Martin style tuners originally come with phillips-headed screws?? That's what's on this '40, but I didn't think phillips-heads were used much that early. Again, if someone here could readily post pics, I'll gladly send pics of what I have. Thanks for all the info, guys. |
Rick Aiello Member From: Berryville, VA USA
|
posted 03 June 2002 11:46 AM
profile send email edit
Well ... I've got GOOD news and BAD news...The BAD news .... The Martin tuners arrived today ... http://www.elderly.com/accessories/items/GTM28.htm ... They DID NOT slid right in The GOOD NEWS ... I had talked with Wayne Tanner (Thanks Ray and Wayne) and he suggested takin' a round file and gently enlarge the bakelite post holes. He had not heard of the Martin tuners and said that if indead it only reqquired a 1/64" enlargement...it would be safer to "file out" the hole vs. DRILL and far more practical to file out the hole than to file down the posts themselves. Well, I took Mr. Tanners advice (of course)and in about 2 minutes with a total of maybe 10 light "passes" with the file .. the posts slid right in. I never felt the bakelite was in danger (and I'm as paranoid as you get) .. in fact, although I only needed 1 new tuner .. the other 5 were loose and in bad shape ... I did all 6 ... in a total of about 15 minutes. The mounting holes did need a slight adjustment ... another 5 minutes ... BINGO...New tuners ... safe ... finished. They even look great .. and I can live with the "Martin" name on the backs. Thanks to everyone ... I'm delighted ... and maybe this will help some of y'all who have been suffering with poor/missing tuners on your bakelites.
|
Ray Montee Member From: Portland, OR, USA
|
posted 03 June 2002 11:54 AM
profile send email edit
Glad it worked out so well for you. Nothing like having a WT in your corner when it comes to Bakelites. He has been kind enough to provide me with detailed instructions on how to go about restoring a Bakelite that was destroyed in shipping....... With his words, I feel confident to attack this project with real enthusiasm. Normally, I'm cowardly. I once knew a guy that was so dedicated to Rickenbacher Bakelites and their owners, that he drove all the way from southern Texas to Branson, MO, in order to provide a FREE service call under the terms of his unwritten, non-published, after sale warranty coverage. I'll not mention any names. |
C Dixon Member From: Duluth, GA USA
|
posted 03 June 2002 12:09 PM
profile send email edit
WT (Wayne Tanner) and J D Sauser are indeed "Rick" gurus. If they don't know it, ya better give up. God bless them and you, carl |
Bob Stone Member From: Gainesville, FL, USA
|
posted 03 June 2002 02:39 PM
profile send email edit
I'm the proud owner of a pre-1937 (one volume/tone control)Ric Bakelite 6. Wayne Tanner helped me out by remagnetizing the pickup magnets and getting the metal parts rechromed. He has earned his reputation as "Mr. Rickenbacher."My Ric was as a derelict when I bought it. It had half a set of raggedy old Kluson tuners. I bought a new set of Klusons (3 on a strip)from Elderly and with very few strokes of the old rat tail file on the Bakelite they dropped right in. It's a great guitar--a tone monster and a real looker. Thanks a million Wayne. Bob |