I could make up a seperate tuning chart for each tuning or you could take a few minutes to figure out what I'm doin' here and make one up yourself ... and use it until you have it memorized ... Harmonic Heaven

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Harmonic tuning for Stringed Instruments

The first number indicates the "Chime/Scale note Position". Their positions on the fretboard are as follows:

The 3rd is found just a bit off of the 4th fret (toward the nut) or at the 9th fret ...

The 5th is found at the 7th fret.

The tonic 1st is found at the 5th or 12th fret ... depending on the octave desired.

The second number is the "Initial" reference note. The note that the "chime" is "applied to".

The third number is the "Resultant" note that is produced by this action.

Example:
Tuning the E(3)string to the C(1) string in C6 tunin'.

The 3rd of the 1 is the 3 ..

1) Ring the "chime" at the 4th fret of the tonic C string ... you get a JI "E" (3) note

2) Then ring the chime at the 5th fret of the E string ... you get an E note in the same octave as the JI E produced by chiming the C string

3) Tune the E string until you no longer hear the beats (wah-wah sound ... the closer you get to pitch ... the slower it gets ... when you no longer hear it ... bingo).

Now the overtones produced by your C string will not clash with the fundamental or overtones of the E string.

Here goes

The Thirds

The 3rd of the 1 is the 3
The 3rd of the 3b is the 5
The 3rd of the 4 is the 6
The 3rd of the 5 is the 7
The 3rd of the 5# is the 1
The 3rd of the 6 is the 2b
The 3rd of the 7b is the 2

The Fifths

The 5th of the 1 is the 5
The 5th of the 3b is the 7b
The 5th of the 3 is the 7
The 5th of the 4 is the 1
The 5th of the 5 is the 2
The 5th of the 5# is the 3b
The 5th of the 6 is the 3

Now the cool one .... it is useful when the "Initial" reference note is not present in the open tuning.

Thirds & Fifths

The 3rd of the 5 is the 5th of the 3 ....... 7
The 3rd of the 5# is the 5th of the 4 ........1
The 3rd of the 7b is the 5th of the 5 ........2 **Extremely handy**
The 3rd of the 1 is the 5th of the 6 ........3
The 3rd of the 3b is the 5th of the 1 ........5

It is not always convenient to tune via harmonics ... so here are the JI deviations from ET for using an electronic tuner.

Scale Note     Deviations from ET(cents)
1                 0
2b		+12
2 		 +4
3b		+16
3		-14
4		 -2
5b		-10
5		 +2
5#		+14
6		-16
7b		+18
7		-12
1(8)		  0
* These are the 5-Limit JI deviations

Now there are a couple of things to be careful of ... the main one involves having a tuning with the 2,5,6 all present ... can't get it beatless ..

Nothin's perfect !!!

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[This message was edited by Rick Aiello on 27 November 2003 at 07:44 AM.]

I did this about 15 yrs ago ... and I remembered that some of the combinations don't work ...

I'm self correcting

quote:

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Besides, all your exact tuning only counts on an open string- as soon as you go for a barred note, you're at the mercy of your ears.

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As I stated in the other thread ... setting your open strings to JI is like using the "starting blocks" in track (sprints)...

It gets you in the best position to start your job ... to play beautiful music.

quote:

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The steel guitar is a folk instrument- whacky intonation is part of the sound.

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I think some folks will disagree ... I do.

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[This message was edited by Rick Aiello on 15 February 2003 at 08:31 PM.]

The first tape I sent to JB, years ago, was 1 song ... I had worked on all my "skills" ... had all my strings tuned "perfect" (ET, straight up) with a Korg tuner ... I was excited and proud.

Less than a week later, I got a letter back ... and he said to the effect "Rick, I listened to a couple of measures ... and had to turn it off ... throw away that &$#@ electronic tuner and learn to tune using Just Intonation".

At that time I had NO IDEA what JI was ... so in my usual fashion .. I started readin', studyin' and practicing ...

These "charts" .... posted above, Tuning in JI ... and here, Playing in JI ... Are the results of that work.

The next year, I sent him another song ... he told me about 1000 things to correct ... and ended the letter with ..."Rick, at least you figured out how to tune your guitar".

Page, as far as blues goes ... do you think Robert Johnson or Muddy Waters tuned ET ???

Put an open ET E tunin' on your steel ... and hit a big ol' A chord with a nice saturated amp .... record it. Do the same now with your E tuning tune via JI ... Ah !!

As I stated in the other thread ... Get your steel in tune with itself first and foremost ...

Let the tension you like and enjoy be built between you and your bands ET tuned instruments ... Not between your guitar's strings ....

Kinda like havin' your cake and eatin' it to ... you get the JI sound that is heard on all your hero's steel guitar records and you get the "chorus effect" tension by playin' with ET backup ....

Just my opinions of course

This JI vs ET war ... it never ends

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[This message was edited by Rick Aiello on 16 February 2003 at 07:18 AM.]

Seriuosly, it is a pretty safe assumption that any of these greats from the past (and present) who used open tunings and "tune by ear" are using JI ... they just might not know the term.

Alot of steelers don't use the harmonic method to tune JI ... they just tune the strings till the "beats" are gone ... its still JI....

But by using harmonics ... the fundamental (which can be overpowering ) is eliminated and the crisper/clearer overtones (partials) are easier to hear and manipulate ... For me anyway.

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www.horseshoemagnets.com

[This message was edited by Rick Aiello on 16 February 2003 at 11:39 AM.]

quote:

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But I would think for the rest of us mortals playing blues in a bar band, JI would be opening a can of worms in an ET setting

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Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (C6add9), Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6), Roland Handsonic

[This message was edited by Bobby Lee on 16 February 2003 at 01:27 PM.]

Jesse, you can get ET Harmonicas ... but most are JI ... check this site out .. it gives a side-by-side audio comparison of JI vs ET harmonicas ...

http://www.patmissin.com/tunings/tunings.html

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www.horseshoemagnets.com

[This message was edited by Rick Aiello on 16 February 2003 at 08:59 PM.]

Hi Rick, I'll give it a listen. You haven't done any damage, just the opposite in fact.

[This message was edited by Jesse Pearson on 16 February 2003 at 09:27 PM.]

I play primarily the C6 or C13 tuning, hi-to-low:
E C A G E C (Bb) (low C)

I sorta go at it like this...

First I tune the high E (1st string) to the guitar player's E. Usually I'll detune the string below pitch and then slowly raise it up until it matches.

Once I've got that, I go to the A string (3rd string) and pluck it in unison with the E that I just tuned. That's a perfect 5th, right? So it has a certain ring to it. Just like I did alongside the guitar player, I usually detune below pitch and raise it up till it grooves with other string.

Once those are in tune with each other I go to the C string (2nd string) and pluck that in unison with the E 1st string. That's a major 3rd so it has a certain pleasing ring to it too. But just to make sure, I strum the top three strings and make sure that minor chord comes out sounding okay.

Now I've got the C tuned up... to get the G (4th string) sounding right, I pluck it in tune with the C. That's a perfect fourth so it's got a nice ring to it too.

The 5th string E is easy because it's an octave below the 1st string E... I just match 'em up. And just to make sure, that 5th string E plucked with the 3rd string A is also a perfect fourth...so those two have to ring nicely as well.

Same with the 6th string C...it's an octave below the 2nd string C...I match 'em up too. And that 6th string C played with the 4th string G is also a perfect fifth...so I gotta make sure those two groove right as well.

Finally, I strum all six of those strings together to make sure one string is not out of whack and making the C6 chord sound funky.

So...all of this...is "just" intonation, right?

[This message was edited by Jeff Au Hoy on 17 February 2003 at 10:37 AM.]

I can't believe that somebody didn't hip Johnny W. to this, if they had we guitarist who play bottle neck would know about it by now. I have been record copying for along time, I have good relative pitch but have seen much better. When I play bass on blues, I walk it alot like the guy with Albert Collins. Isn't it true that players with perfect picth are at odds alot of times with other instruments being alittle out, to the point it drives em nuts?

That way their E and A are not too far from the E & A of the rhythm guitar.

I understand JB does as Jeff does ... tunes his E to standard pitch (ET) ... therefore their C is 14 cents sharp to ET ... their G is 16 cents sharp to ET... and the A is 2 cents flat to ET.

Personally, I seem to be more successful playin' with ET instruments ... if I use my tuner to put my C at around +8 cents sharp of ET ... which makes all my open strings (+/-) 5-10 cents to the rhythm guitars notes ... A nice compromise.

It's the "distance" between notes that makes it JI ... not the "reference note".

As I have been sayin ... as long as your steel is in tune with itself ... no matter where your "reference note" is originally tuned .... you have a head start on playin' in tune.

Sorry to "Rock your world" (or would that be "Blues your world" ) with this ... but I would be very suprised to learn that J. Winter, Ry Cooder, D. Allman, etc. ... uses/used an electronic tuner to tune each string on their slide guitars or tuned each one of their open strings to a piano ...

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[This message was edited by Rick Aiello on 17 February 2003 at 09:44 AM.]

I don't usually use JI in live performance, because if the third drifts any further flat it really shows. Likewise, I don't use ET, because if a third drifts any further sharp it really shows.

Instead, I tune the roots and fifths to +5 cents and the thirds and sixths to -5 cents. This seems to work out really well. I only sound out of tune when I'm playing poorly or have real old strings.

In the controlled environment of the studio or practice room, I'm more inclined to use the harmonic method and get real JI.

A E9th pedal steel player by the name of Bill North calls JI "tuning the the beats out". He says when you play by your self it sounds beutiful, how ever, it might not sound so good playing with a band.

I remember an old black blues guitarist once talking about the real blues notes kinda being lost. I think this is what he was talking about. I still have a ways to go on understanding where this all affects my blues guitar playing and why my ET tuner worked so well? Man, what a history lesson this is tuning into, ha ha! Justonic Tuning Inc. has a program that gives you precise pure harmonic intonation and free modulation, the future and the past become one, the elusive Holy Grail of instrument makers...

[This message was edited by Jesse Pearson on 18 August 2003 at 07:22 AM.]

quote:

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I don't usually use JI in live performance, because if the third drifts any further flat it really shows. Likewise, I don't use ET, because if a third drifts any further sharp it really shows.

Instead, I tune the roots and fifths to +5 cents and the thirds and sixths to -5 cents. This seems to work out really well.

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What if we named this set? "________ intonation"? "Ideal Intonation"?

With the band ready to go I need something I can do quickly and reasonably accurrately. I have a tuner that doesn't even show cents. I've always tuned each note to the tuner or used unisons. Nevermore after this thread!

So if I'm getting this, the "real world" practical method is to tune the root to ET then tune by ear tuning the roots and fifths slightly sharp and the thirds and sixths slightly flat. If I was interested in true JI I would tune the root to ET on the tuner then tune JI using harmonics. Have I got it?

[This message was edited by Andy Volk on 17 February 2003 at 03:09 PM.]

Please don't under estimate the value of practicing this .... bringing two notes into tune ...

It may take a while to "get the hang" of it ... comin' up to the note ... hearing the beats slow .. going to far ... hearing the beats speed up again ... bringin' it back down "way" flat ... bringin' it back up again ... stoppin' at just the right time ...

5ths are alot easier to do than 3rds ... so practice those till you get used to it ...

Once that "skill" is developed ... you can tune up and "touch up" real fast ... and hittin' those slants in tune will come alot easier ... 'cause you know what to listen for ...

Best Ear Trainin' I ever had ...

Just tryin' to help ...

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[This message was edited by Rick Aiello on 17 February 2003 at 08:31 PM.]

quote:

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When did the old way disappear and what was the advantage of the NEW WAY? Frankly I just don't see what the confusing, mind boggling details being discussed here,are all about

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Ray ... its all about tuning via Just Intonation ... exactly the way you, JB, Sol Hoopii,.... tuned your steels.

Nothing new, confusing or mind boggling about it ....

I was just explaining what it was, how it works and how to do it ....

[This message was edited by Rick Aiello on 17 February 2003 at 07:53 PM.]

quote:

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So if I'm getting this, the "real world" practical method is to tune the root to ET then tune by ear tuning the roots and fifths slightly sharp and the thirds and sixths slightly flat. If I was interested in true JI I would tune the root to ET on the tuner then tune JI using harmonics. Have I got it?

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Lets tune C6 using Just Intonation

(low to hi)
C6 Tunin' 
C  E  G  A  C  E     
1  3  5  6  1  3     
C Maj Scale 
C  D  E  F  G  A  B  C
1  2  3  4  5  6  7  1
 

Now .... tune the C about +8 cents sharp (or just tweak it alittle sharp if you don't have "cents" available on your tuner)

Once this is done ... DON"T fool around with this string ... it is your reference point.....

1) Tune the G string

The 5th of the 1 is the 5 .... this means ... the 5th (scale degree) of an C note (1st in the C scale) is a G note (5th in the C scale).

Chime the C string at the 7th fret (5th of the 1) ... giving you a G note .... same octave as the G that you will produce on the G string ..... The 5th of the 1 is the 5 (5th of C is G)

Chime the G string at the 5th fret ... this produces a G note (5) ...

Now, bring that G string down (flat) ... and bring it back up to match your ringing C string (G note)... Bring it up slowly ... listening ... if you went way down ... you won't hear beats ... to many, too fast .... But as you get closer ... they slow down ... when you FIRST detect they have disappeared ... STOP .. (the most common mistake is to keep goin too far).

Chime them both again ... see if you detect any wah-wah sound ... if not ... your C and G are PERFECTLY in tune

2) Tune the E string (This is the hardest one to do !!!!)

The 3rd of the 1 is the 3 .... this means ... the 3rd (scale degree) of an C note (1st in the C scale) is an E note (3rd in the C scale)

Chime the C string at the 4th fret ... just a hair toward the nut (3rd of the 1) ... this produces a E note (3) .. get it ... The 3rd of the 1 is the 3 (3rd of C is E)

Chime the E string at the 5th fret ... giving you an E note .... same octave as your E that you produced on the C string.

Now, bring your E string down (flat) ... and bring it up to match your ringing C string (E note)... bring it up slowly ... listening ... . when you FIRST detect they have disappeared ... STOP.

Chime them both again ... see if you detect any wah-wah sound ... if not ... your C and E are PERFECTLY in tune

3) Tune the A string

The 5th of the 6 is the 3 .... this means ... the 5th (scale degree) of an A note (6th in the C scale)is an E note (3rd in the C scale).

Chime the E string at the 12th fret ... giving you an E note .... same octave as your E that you will produce on the A string... this is your reference note .

Chime the A string at the 7th fret (5th of the 6) ... this produces a E note (3) .. get it ... The 5th of the 6 is the 3 (5th of the A is the E)

Now, bring your A string down (flat ) ... and then bring it up slowly ... listening ... when you FIRST detect they have disappeared ... STOP.

Chime them both again ... see if you detect any wah-wah sound ... if not ... your A and E are PERFECTLY in tune.

4) Tune your low E

Chime hi E string at 12th fret ...chime low E at 5th fret .... bring it to tune

5) Tune your low C

Chime hi C string at 12th fret ...chime low C at 5th fret .... bring it to tune


Done ...

You may want to go back and re-check ... adjustments on the bass strings screw up the tension across the bridge.

The main reason to use harmonics over just tuning the beats out of open notes ... is that by chiming the strings you produce the SAME NOTE IN THE SAME OCTAVE ...

It is much easier to tune unisons ..
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[This message was edited by Rick Aiello on 18 February 2003 at 11:01 AM.]