I would appreciate names of any Steels with a parallel 7/16 string spacing, and any opinions about that spacing that anyone who played one might have.

I am also VERY interested in Steel Players' opinions of string spacings, both parallel and converging, between 5/16 and 7/16", particularly what string spacing configuration they wound up favoring and why.

And while I'm asking, I'm also interested in any info and data about how the differences between Just Intonation and Equal Temperament might be effected / offset in the scale length fret divisor geometry of Steel fretboards, for bar slants. It's obvious that unequal fret distances interrupt a straight-line slant bar tangent across the transit points of strings and frets. With some notes on a fret being off as much as 36 cents or so from Just Intonation, ...does the unequal adjacent fret distances close the gap between Equal and Just for bar slants, or does it agravate it? Having some info on that subject from the good folks here might very well save me ALLOT of time manually plotting Just vs Equal cents margins for every string/fret transit in bar slants across 3 or 4 frets.

I think it would be interesting to have a wider spacing at the nut to compensate for the greater distances between the frets ... for slantin' ...

As far as the JI fretboard ... I heard of folks using "interchangable" fretboards on guitars ... one for each key

In my opinion, havin' a JI fretboard would be counterproductive ... it is one thing to tune open strings to a particular chord ... micro-adjustments can be applied quickly enough using your ear (like tunin' up without a electronic tuner) to compensate for the ET fretboard ...

But "lockin' yourself" in with a fretboard based on a particular key would be very confusing/difficult ... for slanting and modulating.

Just my thoughts ...

I wasn't referring to a JI fretboard, but only wondering if the (ET) scale divisor geometry in unequal fret distances might somehow close the gap between ET and JI, or agravate it, in bar slants; After all, it is JI most people trim the bar to by ear (sorta ...with habitual ET influence).

Another thing that stumps me is that common mental geometry says that a bar slant is a straight line while the slant tangents between the string-fret transits is NOT; But I'll be darn, ....a straight edge lines up straigher than an arrow across the tangents on my old Blue MOTS Magnatone. (?) I would think that a 36 cent (36% of a half step) margin between ET and JI at a 3rd note should create allot more pointed steel-bar management suggestions than I've seen / found in the forums here (or anywhere), ...which makes me wonder if there might be something ET/JI compensating in bar slants across the unequal fret distance geometry.

THANKS AGAIN Professor!
Aloha,
DT~

[This message was edited by Denny Turner on 06 July 2003 at 08:23 AM.]

In regards to my old post above ...I remember being "shocked" at the number of straight bar positions that were in tune ... albeit not exactly over the fret ...

This chart shows the "micro-adjustments" needed to compensate for open strings that are tuned JI ...

Ex: String 1 is tuned open to the "third of C" .... E = (-) 14 cents.

To get the "correct" JI fourth (F=(-)2 cents) at fret 1 ... the bar must be placed (+)12 cents sharp .

Here are the top 5 strings in C6 (C6/A7)tunin':

5       4       3       2       1
3(0)    5(0)    6(0)    1(0)    3(0)

4(+12)  5#(+12) 7b(+34) 2b(-30) 4(+12)

5b(+45) 6(-18)  7(+4)   2(+4)   5b(+45)

5(+16)  7b(+16) 1(+16)  3b(+16) 5(+16)

5#(+28) 7(-14)  2b(-14) 3(-14)  5#(+28)

6(-2)   1(-2)   2(+20)  4(-2)   6(-2)

7b(+32) 2b(-32) 3b(+32) 5b(+31) 7b(+32)

7(+2)   2(+2)   3(+2)   5(+2)   7(+2)

1(+14)  3b(+14) 4(+14)  5#(+14) 1(+14)

2b(-16) 3(-16)  5b(+47) 6(-16)  2b(-16)

2(+18)  4(-4)   5(+18)  7b(+18) 2(+18)

3b(+30) 5b(+29) 5#(+30) 7(-12)  3b(+30)

3(0)    5(0)    6(0)    1(0)    3(0)

Frets 3,7,8 and 12 (of course), are "right on"

Frets 4,5,6,9,10 and 11 are close...

Frets 1 & 2 are just "party poopers"

[This message was edited by Rick Aiello on 06 July 2003 at 12:36 PM.]

Before I get confused, these three units are the same:

3/8 = 6/16 = 12/32

Since most guitar nuts seem to favor a 5/16 spacing, the 11/32 is right between 5/16 and 3/8. This would put a little more room at the lower frets for slants without going all the way to 3/8...

But, are there certain types of slants at the lower frets (or anywhere on the fretboard), which would favor a tighter string spacing??

bOb's Laptop is similar to the Excel JB frypan, which is also 5/16 and 13/32. My Harmony is 5/16 at the nut, but 7/16 at the bridge. But the scale length is 23" which is another darned variable in the stew. And...isn't the Laptop a 24-1/4 scale?

The 13/32 at the bridge would widen it a bit for the fingers (from 3/8), but not go too wide, at 7/16. IMHO, the fingers need space down there....I don't know how the pedal players do it!

THANKS for the great data and info.

Please note that I am equally interested in a person's perceptions of WHY they might favor a certain spacing configuration. It helps me get insight into the many reasons people have such as feel, accuracy perceptions, technical reasons, historical hype etc; ....towards finding as many factors as I can that are practical for playing and functional ...and better ensure I don't miss any important factors.

THANK YOU,
Aloha,
DT~

[This message was edited by Denny Turner on 06 July 2003 at 04:07 PM.]

The math suggests to me that a wider spacing at the nut would slightly improve a few things including bar slant angle, ...BUT... I think it wise before I try to "reinvent the wheel", to try to determine why so many Steels have been made the opposite and likely the result of good Research and Devlopment.

The only reason I can suppose so far for string spacings narrower at the nut, is to provide a shorter bar slant span between the outer reaches of notes under the "original" rather standard steel bar dimensions that fit the average hand well for getting the thumb behind the bar with the index finger near the tip (otherwise the answer for span would have been to extend the bar length). On a working fretboard graph, using one string-fret transit point as a reference point in measuring bar-slant at different string spacings, the bar tangent is an arc from the reference point as the spacing opens and closes, which amplifies the effect of opening / closing the string spacing for bar reach. So closing the spacing allows the bar to reach further than the simple math of the fret/strings alone, as the bar arc also opens / closes the span.

That's the only reason I can suppose for narrower spacing at the nut. But narrower spacing at the nut also slightly "agravates" accurate bar alignment across unequally spaced frets (but is that compensated for by some other scale/intonation offset effect?); And of course requires a steeper bar slant, although Rick showed in a different older message chain that the difference in bar slant angle between a 24 and 22" scale was only about 1 degree; But on the other hand slight differences can be noticed by more than a few people, ...and the angle an airliner approaches the runway is only 3 degrees, so estimating the effect of only 1 degree can be deceiving IMHO.

Here are some plot charts I'm working with. Any ideas / corrections / comments appreciated.

This stuff sure is a chore for my birth-challenged brain! THANKS A MIL for all the info and input.

Aloha,
DT~

[This message was edited by Denny Turner on 06 July 2003 at 05:43 PM.]

NOTE: I don't recall JB ever mentioning nut spacing. But I believe 5/16" is about standard in this case. Which is so close to 3/8" over a two foot span that for all practical purposes it is parallel in essence.

As to positioning the frets according to JI, I would have to give that one some thought. My first impression is, since those who tune JI usually tune the open strings to JI, so it would be best to leave the frets at ET. Since the very art of slanting the bar is more ear driven than scientific driven. So I don't see any need to compensate the frets to accomadate JI.

For clarification, THE JI/MT FRETBORD WAS A JOKE at another message chain (neck for Polish polkas) . Everything else is very real R&D.

Aloha,
DT~

[This message was edited by Denny Turner on 06 July 2003 at 06:14 PM.]

I had a trashed Ricky S100 that had no nut or bridge. I made a set ...went 7/16" straight up ... it was fun for awhile ... but it was just a "tad" too much.

My Superior Weissy copy originally had super wide spacing ... I built a bridge that closed it up some. Still takes me a few minutes to get used to it.

I did find that the exaggerated spacings on the S100 and Superior "hampered" my strums (of all things) ... to much time between adjacent notes and the pick seemed to drop lower between the strings ... hittin' them harder than I was use to.

[This message was edited by Rick Aiello on 06 July 2003 at 06:22 PM.]

On string spacing:
I like 11/32. Maybe splittin' hairs, but on a 8,10,12 string guitar it adds up. This is the spacing on Benoit's 8 string reso, and on MSA and Sierra U12's. Sierra has a 12 string non psg under development with the 11/32 spacing.(on their website)

Picking accuracy and ease of reach across strings seems to make this an ideal spacing.
My T8 Stringmaster is wider, and my old Tricone is even wider. I notice the difference and gravitate to the 11/32.

I have never understood the need for taper. The frets are parallel but the strings are not. So I try to keep the bar parallel with the fret markers, but I notice the strings look "off". Hey, I am used to it now, but if I were to start from scratch...?

FWIW. The classical spanish guitars (nylon string) I have played have no taper.(I think string thickness may be a factor)

Ron
one man's opinion.

------------------
Stringmaster T8, Benoit 8, National Tricone, MSA U12

Increasing the spacing at the nut requires more bar lenth to cover a given slant--something I experience when switching back and forth between my two 22.5" scale electric steels: a Bakelite 6 (wider spacing) and a double 8 Stringmaster (narrower spacing). And keeping the bar length short facilitates the manual dexterity required for bar slants, especially when moving quickly from forward to reverse slants. Bar slants of more severe angles played on the lower frets are more easily played and sound better on the Ric. Playing severe slants (say string 3 fret 1, string 1 fret 3) on my Dobro is even more challenging. I can get the angle okay, but the tone resulting from the more nearly parallel bar-to-string angle (exacerbated by the more forceful picking required for an acoustic instrument) is unsatisfactory to my ears. So I avoid those moves in my playing, finding other places to get the needed notes. The same slant played an octave higher, where the string spacing is much wider relative to the distance between frets, and the bar angle less severe, sound fine.

Seems like I do recall my 1928 Tricone had a little wider spacing at the nut. That would be logical as more Hawaiian-style music was played on those instruments than on todays resos.

As I recall, some the old Epiphone Electars have parallel string spacing--same at the nut as at the bridge saddle. The only one I have played was Willie Eason's, and that was just for a few minutes at a time. The Electar seemed to facilitate clean slants on the lower frets. But that's a hasty judgement.

Maybe Jody Carver might have a few words about Stringmaster string spacing. Wasn't he around when they were designing those classic instruments?

Thanks for entertaining and exploring these issues, Dennis. And good luck with your projects. The steel guitar is still a fairly young instrument and continues to evolve.

All the best,

Bob

[This message was edited by Bob Stone on 07 July 2003 at 08:56 AM.]

Thank You for the kind words; It is certainly my pleasure to investigate the Steel with such fine folks.

Could you please clarify your statement:

quote:

---

Playing severe slants (say string 3 fret 1, string 1 fret 3) on my Dobro is even more challenging. I can get the angle okay, but the tone resulting from the more nearly parallel bar-to-string angle (exacerbated by the more forceful picking required for an acoustic instrument) is unsatisfactory to my ears.

---

What is the Dobro scale length and spacing at the nut AND bridge? That will give us that 3rd reference to tie in your excellent account of observations.

----------

Since I am studying traditional converging string spacing as well as the opposite converging geometry ...versus parallel ...for as many factors as I can determine; It helps greatly to know which of those formats a person's particular specific experiences are relating to.

----------

About the Jerry Byrd thang: It seems apparant to me that Jerry Byrd can do the things he does rather effortlessly because he is a tonal and meticulous genius. When I took lessons from him, I would tune my "neck" at the beginning of each lesson, and he would always take it and trim out the tuning ...and he said I had a very good tonal ear! (but then again, I was tuning fully JI ... while he was probably trimming out for ET / fretboard). That told me that his ear was exacting and his not accepting anything less was meticulous. ----- I also have a grandly honest lady friend with perfect pitch and manual dexterity genious; Plays keyboard format with her right hand, "kicks" bass with her left hand, has a floor "full" of swithes ...and sings at the same time ...changing electronic and midi settings mid-song with either opportune hand and/or foot without missing a beat. Steel and slide guitar actually make her body and face cringe when the notes aren't right on, which of course is rather often in bar type venues and the number of different musicians she performs with. She tells me that the compound beat frequencies of Equal Temperament alone ...and especially out of tune / intoned notes, sounds in her head like she's in the middle of a formation of old airplanes out of sync with each other. And since she has no connection with airplanes, it means that a long time ago at a very young age she heard propeller airplanes in formation from a great distance and related to that analogy. So bottom line is that it seems to me that Jerry Byrd had a litteral Love for the Steel (as he professes) and had perfect pitch and a meticulous nature that wouldn't / couldn't accept anything less than perfect (which he humbly dismisses in converstaion). If we are to shoot for something in our playing technique, I thing that "model" is a good target.

For what it's worth, I also know that Jerry trims the top note of slants by exactly placing the 3 dimensional radius and pressure of the rounded bar tip. I have looked at that factor very closely with powerful reading glasses, ...and there IS allot of trimming effect on that bar tip radius in 3 dimensions! ....although I darn sure can't put that into an accomplished success yet.

----------

Thanks again to all the input.

Sorry, I assumed you knew the Dobro measurements. Spacing is 7/16 at the bridge and about 11/32, as best I can measure, at the nut(I don't have a good scale, using a steel tape). The scale length looks like 24-9/16 (I'm measuring with the coverplate on.

My point is: the scale on the Dobro is longer than my 22-1/2" Ric Bakelite but the string spacing is about the same. Severe slants on the lower frets of the Ric are easier and cleaner compared to the reso.

By the way, some contemporary hand-made resos have even longer scale lengths. Beard, for example advertises 25".

Best,

My challenged brain and addiction has pretty much been focused on non-pedal Steel; And I don't have a large inventory to measure our discussions' stuff from.

I really appreciate all the generous info provided by all.

Using 3/8 at the bridge and 5/16th at the nut as a Standard to meausure from : the difference is 1/16th or .0625

GeorgeBoards spread is aprox .025
or 60% wider than a typical spread at the nut , We feel that this provides more accurate angles (Slants) and additional Clarity in the Lower Frets areas especially.

I also agree with b0b on tempering the tuning some and the need to massage the bar to gain better results.

------------------
“Big John” wknsg®
Fender, T–8 Custom
Franklin, D–10 w/9 & 8
Goodrich, Match Box
Peavey, Classic 50 – 212
Enhancer, E–LG
Ibanez, AD–9 http://community.webtv.net/KeoniNui/BigJohnBechtels