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Author
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Topic: Dick McIntire sustain
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Bill Leff
Member From: Santa Cruz, CA, USA
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posted 15 September 2003 07:34 AM
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As I was listening to the Trade Winds album yesterday and marvelling at the incredible sustain of Dick McIntire's guitar, I got to thinking about something I'd read about him using a longscale Frypan with a modified pickup (bigger magnets?) and what effect that had on his sustain. My question, what are the factors that contributed to his unique sound (besides
the obvious "his hands") and a question for
Rick Aiello and Jason Lollar - have you or are you considering cooking up a pickup that would attempt to emulate his sound? |
Jesse Pearson
Member From: San Diego , CA
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posted 15 September 2003 07:54 AM
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Bill, I talked with Rick about this before and he said that the thickness of a 1.5 Ricky pu doesn't really change anything when it comes to the flux lines of the magnetic field. Dewitt Scott also has the greatest sustain and tone and Dewitt told me his fry pan had extra thick mags also? Rick has a modification he can do to the inside ends of the Ricky 1.5 shoes that help's the flux lines go further out to the ends which should give you not only a great sound on 6 string steel but also allow you to use the same pickup on an 8 string, which I am slowly trying to build myself as we speak. The modification is also used on Rick's 10 string pedal steel shoes. I love Dick McIntires's sustain and tone, it has alot of garlic to it.[This message was edited by Jesse Pearson on 15 September 2003 at 07:58 AM.] |
Rick Aiello
Member From: Berryville, VA USA
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posted 15 September 2003 09:10 AM
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Jesse is right on the money ...For those of y'all who don't know what Bill L. is referring to ... Early Magnets ... scroll down. Without boring you out of your skull ... the magnetization of Hardened Steel is a surface phenomenon ... unlike alnico, ceramic, rare earth magnets ... where the magnetism is "thru and thru". Basically, there are small regions of the material ... called domains .. that, when exposed to a magnetic field ... align. This really means that the unpaired electrons' spin (clockwise or counterclockwise) in these sections is the same ... In steel magnets ... it is only the domains close to the surface that align. Several factors influence the strength of the magnetic field in steel mags. The % carbon, the particular alloy composition, ... but most importantly ... the amount of Martensite (the really hard, brittle form of steel) present. The old cobalt steel used in Rickys was great for magging ... and they got it super hard (and very brittle .. right Bill C. .. ha,ha). It is not commercially available anymore ... so we (Creller and me) use an alloy that is real close to the cobalt steel used then. Bill C. had a chunk of original analyzed. Through a bunch of experiments .. I found the most effective way to "bump" up the strength of the mags is to .. #1 Get the steel as hard as possible ... Cryogenics after heat treating was the answer. #2 Increasing the surface area .... thats why 1.5" are more desirable. I have taken this to another level by "laminating" thinner steel magnets together ... more surface area ... So to get back to Bill L.'s question ... Those beefy looking mags found on the earliest frypans may look impressive ... but they have little bearing on output and tone (there is a small increase in surface area associated with the greater thickness)... The whole unit is much different than a standard Ricky though ... gap size of the mags, bobbin size, mounting holes, etc. ... they are not interchangable with Rickys say 1933 and up ... You asked ...  PS: Jason's "recipe" for his bobbins would have Andy I., Dick M. and Sol H. lining up at his doorstep  ------------------
www.horseshoemagnets.com [This message was edited by Rick Aiello on 25 December 2003 at 02:28 PM.] |
Karl Oberlander
Member From: Austin, Texas, USA
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posted 15 September 2003 10:06 AM
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I'm not sure when Trade Winds was produced but I have a picture of Dick McIntire with endorsing the Dickenson guitar dated June 231, 1939. Again I'm not sure if he played the Dickerson exclusively but I would suppose he had several kinds of guitars.This is from The Hawaiian Steel Guitar and it's Great Hawaiian Musicians. Kobe
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Gibson D-8 Console Grande - Stringmaster T-8 - Alkire EHarp D-10
Fender Super Reverb
kobe@austin.rr.com
http://home.austin.rr.com/kobeco
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Rick Aiello
Member From: Berryville, VA USA
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posted 15 September 2003 10:17 AM
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Trade winds is a compilation/restoration of 78's and radio transcriptions done by Bruce Clarke and Cumquat records.Trade Winds Although Dick M. and Sol H. endorsed Dickersons (for students) they performed and recorded with Rickys. |
Karl Oberlander
Member From: Austin, Texas, USA
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posted 15 September 2003 10:20 AM
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Ok, I found the exact quote:"On a guest appearance in Detroit he was presented with a new black and white Rickenbacher by the sponsor of the concert, but no matter which guitar he played it was difficult to detect any significant change in the tone he produced. On the long scale frypan he played, the horseshoe magnets were much thicker than on regular production models, so itmight have been custon made for him. There is speculation that he might have filled the hollow necks of some of his guitars with plaster of Paris to get greater sustain. His tunings were E7, C#m7 and F#9." Hope that helps, Kobe ------------------
Gibson D-8 Console Grande - Stringmaster T-8 - Alkire EHarp D-10
Fender Super Reverb
kobe@austin.rr.com
http://home.austin.rr.com/kobeco
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Bill Leff
Member From: Santa Cruz, CA, USA
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posted 15 September 2003 10:24 AM
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Is there any hope for us out there with post-war 1.25 pickups or will we forever suffer the humiliating shame of "pickup envy"?  Rick - have you tried any experiments with 1.25 pickups to increase the sustain? |
Bill Leff
Member From: Santa Cruz, CA, USA
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posted 15 September 2003 10:26 AM
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BTW, I keep getting email about a "patch" that will increase my sustain, but I'm dubious.... |
Rick Aiello
Member From: Berryville, VA USA
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posted 15 September 2003 12:08 PM
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Bill, the big "ta-do" over 1.5" mags being far superior to 1.25" is over-rated ... in my opinion.A freshly saturated set of 1.25"s will out perform a tired set of 1.5"s anyday. To get the most out of your Ricky ... First ... make sure the bobbin is not compromised (short in the coil) ... even though you still get a usable signal ... a compromised coil will rob you of valuable output and tone. (I remember you said Jason has already done your bobbin). Second ... make sure your mags are saturated ... i.e. holding as much "juice" as is allowed by the steel. 5 seconds on a DC electromagnet capable of producing 15,000 ampere-turns or more is sufficient for steel magnets. Both Jason and I have nice DC electromags and I have a 40,000 ampere capacitor discharge electromagnet that will suck the iron out of your blood  As for "beefing" up the 1.25" that are already at the top of their game ... a set of my cryo-inserts would definitly make your Ricky stand out in the crowd. I am fixin' to put in another order to my steel place ... right now I have nothing that is 1.25" ... but I am going to order stock 1.25" mag and insert steel along with my standard 1.5" stuff and Charlie Christian stock. For the record ... My stock thickness is 3/16" ... My inserts (laminants) are 1/16" ... Rickys can vary ... usually between 5/32" and 3/16" (they are famous for their inconsistency in all facets of pickup related stuff)... Those beefy early mags are 3/8" ... Any interesting note ... my "Wartime" bakelite's mags are 1.5" but only 1/8" thick ... they were conserving metal for the war I guess. Fully saturated ... they are stronger than any other Ricky set I have ... Less girth ... but harder 
[This message was edited by Rick Aiello on 15 September 2003 at 01:24 PM.] |
Ron Whitfield
Member From: Kaaawa, Hawaii, USA
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posted 15 September 2003 05:31 PM
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Dick had the opportunities to have his pick of all the fry pans at the Rick factory. Just like the stars of today can go in and try em all out and take the best ones, so did he. And he did indeed fill the cavitiy with plaster or whatever the stuff is that has been having a chemical reaction and eating away the cast aluminum. How much it helped in the sustain dept. is debatable, as they usually don't even need more. I think he did that to rein in the overtone 'problem'(I know Prof. Rick!) that most pans have. |
George Keoki Lake
Member From: Edmonton, AB., Canada
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posted 15 September 2003 11:30 PM
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Fellas, I honestly feel that, as with the human voice, tone is a very personal thing. Dick McIntire's beautiful tone has never been duplicated by anyone to my knowledge, (Correct me if I am wrong), and I doubt it ever will be. Just as the voices of Frank Sinatra or Bing Crosby will never be duplicated, or for that matter, the lovely tenor voice of Dick McIntire himself. Both Dirk Vogel in Minneapolis and Hal Smith in British Columbia own two of Dick's old frypans. While both of these gentlemen are excellent steel guitarists in their own right, neither has been able to capture the identical tone Dick produced when he owned and played those actual guitars. Tone and touch are so personal, I guess it is much like fingerprints in that sense....(?)[This message was edited by George Keoki Lake on 15 September 2003 at 11:31 PM.] |
Rick Aiello
Member From: Berryville, VA USA
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posted 16 September 2003 05:28 AM
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Keoki, thats for sure I do believe that certain instruments and amps contribute to the "signature sounds" of some artists (as well as certain eras). Santo's Sleepwalk sounds great on a Ricky ... but it "ain't no" Fender. And how 'bout that Tricone and Hawaiian music from the late '20s. I just have gotten ALOT of emails about those oversized Ricky mags over the last year and thought I'd take this opportunity to elaborate on them . I have been hooked ... actually more like Gafted ... by those first generation electric steelers and I wanted to make the "tools" that were available to them ... available once again. And thanks to Jason Lollar and Bill Creller ... they are.  ------------------
www.horseshoemagnets.com [This message was edited by Rick Aiello on 16 September 2003 at 06:22 AM.] |
Denny Turner
Member From: Northshore Oahu, Hawaii USA
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posted 19 September 2003 02:32 AM
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Not to detract from the wonderful tones of Rickenbachers; But IMHO.... ALLOT of Dick's sound came from saturated tubes, learned from playing allot of outdoor venues with 10-25 watt amps. Here is about the best collection of articles on the subject of amp tone I have ever found. My website also has a page of links to other amplifier subjects. Aloha,
DT~[This message was edited by Denny Turner on 19 September 2003 at 02:36 AM.] |
Ron Whitfield
Member From: Kaaawa, Hawaii, USA
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posted 19 September 2003 04:29 PM
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Denny, thanx for the link to your shop and amptone. On your homepage you have a pic of a wood body Rick in the shape and overall design of a bakelite. Is it at your N.Shore store? Is it the same one that was on ebay a couple of years ago? Have you had the opportunity to play it, if so, what can you say about it(history, sound, const.)? |
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