I recently bought some old Lap Steels to go through for my shop inventory. I cannot positively identify 2 of them, although I have seen Lap Steels with the same shape (as the 2nd example below), pickup, V/T controls and bridge, with National logos on their headstock, ...so I surmise these to be either National jobbers or other manufacturers who used National electronics.

I have become quite interested in these 2 guitars because they sound very good and I want to learn more about these pickups. They have a sound very similar to 1950's Fender Steels, notably throaty in the mid range like Fenders although slightly thinner sounding, and with less bottom end meat than Fenders but very similar tone. They have a razor sharp treble end and easily-saturated character like low impedence DeArmond pickups, which I had surmised they were because they look very much like DeArmond pickups that have been used on a number of off-brand and low-end lap steels and guitars over the years; But since I've seen these pickups on a few National branded Steels, it makes me wonder who made the pickups because I've never seen other style Nationals with any other style DeArmonds, ...so maybe the pickups are made by National:

The first example steel has an "Aloha Hawaii" decal on it's headstock. The decal is the Hawaii Coat of Arms with "Aloha Hawaii" printed at the bottom of the design; ...although "Aloha Hawaii" and the Hawaii Coat of Arms have both been quite common on any number of tourist trinkets and gifts for a long time, and might not have been applied by the manufacturer although it looks like it could have been.

Here is a picture of the pickup and controls plate of the "Aloha Hawaii" Steel. Notice the thin DeArmond-style chrome pickup with 2 rivets toward the outside ends of the pickup. This pickup is rather common on a few different models of old lap steels I've seen, as are the same control plate on every one I remember seeing. The fingerboard and pickguards are plexiglas on this one. Original translucent red plastic parallelagram end-shaped tuning machine knobs. Pineapple shaped body.

Here is a picture of the other Lap Steel. I have seen National branded steels that look very much like if not identical to this Steel, except for some owner modifications on this Steel. There are some indicators that this steel might have been hand-made by someone who was quite good at guitar data and carpentry tricks, who copied an original and put it's hardware on this guitar. Even the wood joints are placed the same as other "identical" Steels I've seen. Someone replaced it's original bridge assembly with a Music Man string through body bridge block; Notice that 2 holes about 5/8" diameter have been filled with plastic wood putty just behind the "new" bridge block.

Any help identifying these guitars' manufacturer, their models and/or their pickups will be much appreciated.

Thank You,
Aloha,
Denny T~

[This message was edited by Denny Turner on 02 October 2003 at 05:48 AM.]

Mine had a horrid pickup that wrapped around the strings top and bottom and a giant coil thats donut-like, there was a cast pot-metal pickguard with a wrinke-finish, with control knobs on either side late 30"s style. Guldan made violins is all i've been able to find. Mine has bound head and body-top, real frets a 23 or 22 7/8 scale.

I replaced pickguard and put new stuff on it, of course keeping original stuff intact.

btw, a great little axe now, i'm getting ready to put good tuners on it, i figure its no-name so lets make it a real player.

CF

[This message was edited by Chuck Fisher on 02 October 2003 at 03:15 PM.]

There are some "holliday" saw marks that lead me to believe the guitar-shaped one is a dead-ringer copy of the hardware's doner, ...plus not a sign of a previous finish in any of the tiny nooks and cranies that residue from stripping an original finish usually leaves. There's also a band-saw holliday while cutting along one side of the neck, going slightly into the body where the upper bout piece meets the neck (without a sign of finish residue in the holliday), rather than a smoothe finished transition that is expected of a commercial craftsmanship especially in that era. And also a slight "holliday" in a curve on the tail end of the body that I think commercial craftsmanship of that era would likely have smoothed out. The fret marker dots are also not counter-sunk but glued directly on top of the fretboard as though they were an aftermarket product for that purpose. The string spacing at the well-carved bone nut is also only 1/4" (!) indicating to me that the builder didn't quite understand Steel Guitars. But still I cannot fully convince myself that it is not an original body made with more than 1 holliday and discrepency I've just not seen before in commercial craftsmanship of that era.

The mystery continues.

this ones a mystery, and yours is a copy of one like is

Jason, ....does my ear tell me correctly that those pickups have a wide winding to a rather low impedence? Do you recall or have a record of their guts' data? Are they similar to the thin grilled DeArmonds used allot by Harmony? Weren't those grilled pickups wound to very low resistance? ----- And while I've "got you here": Just for curiosity and no intent in mind: What would be the effect of taking a 6 string pickup with level single string posts, and making a ferrous bridge across their tops to serve an 8 string Steel? Would the flux field be carried evenly to the extreme ends of the bridge and average out the single posts? And would the signal communicate back thru the posts and coil evenly?

THANKS Guys; I appreciate it.

Aloha,
DT~

[This message was edited by Denny Turner on 05 October 2003 at 06:20 PM.]

The Aloha steel is a Ray Meany guitar. They were labled "Ray Meany's Aloha" (you might be able to see that at the bottom of the coat of arms) and I'm pretty sure they were made by Magnatone. I bought one on eBay about four years ago, when laps were still cheap on there, for a measley $120. Same red tuners, although mine might be a slightly older model. The tone and volume controls are both on top and are deco-styled, white knobs. My red pickup guards are shaped a little different, too. I don't believe your guitar was stripped and refinished. It appears to have the same finish as mine. I can't tell the color of the markings on your fret board, but mine are red like the tuning knobs and pickguard. It's one of my favorites, and yours is only the second one I've seen "like" it.

My guitar says "Ray Meany's Aloha." Yours could have been manufactured under a different name. Seems to be the case with many of these laps. By the way, the pickup in mine is unmatched by any of my guitars past and present, including a Fender Deluxe and Gibson Console Grande. It's just got a very rich, "vibrating" tone.

This forum never ceases to amaze me. It hardly fails that someone will recognize really obscure stuff. A real treasure trove of great people and info.

I'll get back to you here just as soon as I get some time to touch on a couple of things you said. (I tried to write a few things offline but just don't have enough time to cover it well enough right now).

I totally agree with you about the tone of these pickups. Both of the guitars are quite dissimilar in mass, wood type and nut material, yet they both have the same remarkably pleasant sound (the meatier Aloha having a slightly deeper resonant timbre). I have been experimenting with low impedence pickups for Steels (my favorite impedence range for pickups that saturate and produce highly dynamic signal), and I think these Steels' pickups will help support my "theories" (mostly SWAGs) and substantiate the effort to continue "researching". Maybe Jason will come back by and answer the couple of questions I posted earlier here and thereby help the project along (I hate to chance bothering him via email in the busy schedule he must have). And by the way, Danelectro and Fender Squire 600,000 serial number series pickups are the closest I've found to the happy medium between low impedence dynamics and higher impedence signal strength, "roundness" and bottom end. The best of both "worlds" seems to reside in impedences between 4K and 5K, although they will require a notch or two more amp master volume and softer hands to tame their dynamics; And their distance from the strings for a desired average dynamic range is critical. I think there are ways to get the benefits of both low and high impedence in compound pickups; And I'm sure gonna try my best to find out what it is in the "DeArmonds" of the 2 Steels subject here, that produce that very pleasant and unique sound, ...especially now seeing others in the chain here of similar opinion about their sound.

Obviously you and I have Steels made by whoever made those "Aloha's". By your description I think yours is a nicer model, and newer due to knobs being on the far side ...the usual configuration when right-hand blocking and manual volume swells and wah-wah became popular. (The knobs on this one are not original; They don't match and appear to be off of different vintage Telecasters).

I'm still not sure if the guitar shaped one is a stripped original or a clone of it's parts' donor. Some things about it lend to both theories, leaning slightly to being a rather well-done clone, albeit with a couple of noticeable holidays.

There are also some similarities in the manner both Steels were made that make me still want to determine if they might have been made as jobbers by the same parent manufacturer.

THANKS AGAIN,
Aloha,
Denny T~

[This message was edited by Denny Turner on 07 October 2003 at 04:23 AM.]

quote:

---

What would be the effect of taking a 6 string pickup with level single string posts, and making a ferrous bridge across their tops to serve an 8 string Steel? Would the flux field be carried evenly to the extreme ends of the bridge and average out the single posts? And would the signal communicate back thru the posts and coil evenly?

---

I goofed around with this while waitin' for Jason to send me an 8 string bobbin for my Sierra.

The results varied depending on the layout of the "pseudo blade" ...

If this is the original set of magnetic pole pieces with the ferrous bar in place ...

     o-----o-----o-----o-----o-----o

... and you configure your 8 strings between poles 1 & 6 ...

     o-----o-----o-----o-----o-----o
      x   x   x   x   x   x   x   x   

... you will have more success than if you maintain the same string space and put the two new strings "outside" poles 1 and 6.

------o-----o-----o-----o-----o-----o------
x     x     x     x     x     x     x     x

It is "handy" to think of Magnetic Lines of Force as Closed Loops ... the shape of the loop is a function of the magnet's geometry, the materials that the lines "run through" (outside the magnet itself) and the presence of other magnetic fields in the area.

The cylindrical magnetic pole pieces will generate "loops" that are basically ellipses .

Placing a ferrous bar, which has a much higher magnetic permeability than air, across the poles will "re-shape" some of the loops ... flattening them out on top. This will lower the flux density above the pole piece by spreading the lines along the bar .... inducing new "mini loops" associated with the ferrous bar.

There will be a conservation of energy involved ... lowering the "pull" directly over the pole pieces but adding "pull" between them.

The extent of this "detouring" will be a function of the composition of the bar and it's dimensions.

These loops will only extend so far before leaving the ferrous bar and running back to the magnets other pole.

Therefore the second configuration (same spacing - new strings added outward) will not have the "un-detoured" loops from the magnetic pole piece and will only be influenced by some weak induction loops in the ferrous bar.

I have a program that Jason gave me. You draw your magnet(s), put in all the variables and it "spits out" a color coded array showing flux densities and magnetic lines of force. It has been most helpful in designing my staggered PSG magnets and inserts.

You're talkin' way above my head when you guys start talkin' about the mechanics of pickups, although I'm genuinely interested and wish I could wind my own...

Dana -- I could be way off base on thinking the Meany was made by Magnatone. I'm just trying to remember where I heard/read/saw that. I can tell you this: The lead nut is identical to the lead nut in an 8-string Troubador I have (albiet the 8-string has 8 slices in it...), but lead nuts could've been purchased/produced by many manufacturers. It was mentioned that the plastic tuning keys were like Magnatone, and although they're shaped like the ones on my Troubador, the Aloha's are slightly bigger. The red plastic is interesting. I don't remember seeing anyone use red plastic except Magnatone. A few years ago on ebay, I saw an 8-string Magnatone with red tuning keys and a red pickguard like the one on the Aloha, and I still kick myself every day for not bidding on it. And I don't know if you saw the one-of-a-kind beauty Magnatone that was up about a month ago, but it was totally made out of red plexiglass...several layers. The entire body. One of the most incredible examples of a deco guitar I've ever seen. I think it went for over $600, which was still a steal, considering it might have literally been one-of-a-kind.

Isn't talking about laps fun? You've got a Fender up on ebay now, don't you?

I have seen a myriad of lap steels made as jobbers by National / Valco that didn't fit within their marketing / designs game-plan, and so apparantly didn't care to put their (or anyones') name on. I've also seen a number of parts and assemblies common to different manufacturers; So I don't think it unreasonable to entertain that Magnatone might have been jobbing during the period of the lap steels subject in this message chain, ...although for the life of me there is nothing I can find similar to other known Magnatones except some of the hardware mentions that could have been made by DeArmond or someone else, and that more than one steel manufacturer could have drawn from for jobbing, ...the Kluson tuners a good example; Kluson could have done a limited run of those diamond shaped red-button tuners and taken orders from different manufacturers for them, I guess.

*(theme from The Outer Limits plays in background)*

---------------------

RICK: Thanks for the great magnetic info. You answered exactly what I didn't know and wondered; ...about the charge that could/would be conducted in the extension-bar and it's reformation of flux lines. It was looking closely at previous pictures you posted of the computer program results you mentioned, that made me wonder if such an extension bar piece just might spread the peanut butter reasonably even. *(WRONG)* . This forum and it's resources of fine folks is so much better than lengthy / unneccessary time on the bench! ......

THANK YOU,
Aloha,
Denny T~

[This message was edited by Denny Turner on 09 October 2003 at 06:56 PM.]

Thank You for the data and info. I understand the choking (but saturated) fine wire, and had not considered that, and therefore the resistance you mentioned is much higher than I had anticipated in listening to these pickups. Now I can go back and see how that data can be translated by ear/brain. I am very interested in dynamics in a pickup for a particular purpose (saturation and oversaturation during attack) ...which I find exhibited in ultra low impedence pickups ...and a happy medium around 4-5K (Dano, Korean Squire, etc); But again, the choking of fine wire never occured to me relative to number of windings; Something new to ponder in refining the mental ear picture.

Might you expound a little on your "not good for steel" thinking next time you're through here?

I just saw another lap steel on eBay of the same shape silhoutette and the same pickup assembly as the guitar shaped one in my original message above. The seller's description said it was labeled "Epitome Electric, Federated Teachers Service Corp." It had an original deliberate "shrunk / cracked" main paint job with a gold antique-ing rubbed into the paint "cracks"; And now I remember seeing a post on the SGF a couple months back by someone who had a lap steel and no-frills matching amp painted the same way.

I also just saw a differently shaped old Silvertone lap steel without it's pickup assembly ... and the routed pocket for it looked the same as both of the guitars in question in this message chain.

I've also seen several more old lap steels with the same pickup assembly, ...some made during a period it looks like covering the pickup, bridge and strings' tailpiece with wood was popular. I've also noticed that there are a number of different bridges and strings' tailpieces even though the pickup assemble is the same.

So it appears to me that whoever made the pickup assembly was jobbing them out to different manufacturers, and whoever was making the guitar shaped steel in question in this message chain, were also jobbing those steels out.

*(Sound-bite of "The Outer Limits" in the background continues)*