Having had over 100 prs come thru my basement in the last year ... one thing is CERTAIN ... not all prewars (or postwars) are created equal.

Most charge to 200-220 gauss (mid-gap). Some in the 180 range ... had one in yesterday ... 160 gauss ... the lowest yet ... 130 gauss.

No its not my equipment ... I always run a "reverse polarity check" on my own set ... who's saturation point is known.

When a 200 gauss set is rigged with a standard, functioning 1.8 K ohm bobbin ... there ARE HARMONICS added that just arn't there when that same bobbin is sitting on a Humbucker type ferrite (ceramic) magnet.

Yes I ran sonograms on a many, many combinations.

When you put that same bobbin in a 130 gauss pair ... those harmonics appear ... but are weak.

The moral of the story ... its the interplay of the strings with the 3-D magnetic field produced ... the fact that a pulling vector exists above AND below ALTERS the way the string vibrates. This changes its overall wave function ... producing different harmonics.

Everyone knows the simple harmonic series as "individual" wave functions ...

1st harmonic = fundamental = 1/2 a wavelength.

2nd hamonic = 1st overtone ... 1 full wave length ... 1 octave higher

3rd harmonic = 2nd overtone .... 1 1/2 wave lengths ... a fith highe.

But in reality ... these waves are traveling in ONE unique, very complex wave function ... (lots of calculus needed here).

Put in the top 13-20 harmonics and you get a string that is vibrating .... that can be described by an incredibly complex wave equation.

Add a magnetic influence above and below this vibrating string ... time to RECALCULATE !!!

Same with Fender Traps and Supros ... to a lesser degree because of the "second hand" flux ... i.e. magnets yolked to steel plates ... which in turn interact with the strings.

So ALL Rickys have what you guys call the "moan" ... its just most apparent in the extremely brittle, earliest bakelite formula ... with no plasticizers ... just crushed walnut powder for filler.

I'm talkin ... '35-'36 B6 ...

They are the most resonant ... therefore you hear the "altered" wave function easier than with a hollow body stamped steel Ricky ... but they are still there.

You asked

Thats my take on it anyway ...

I made a sonogram of an A note on the Mav. ... then mounted a pair of fully charged 1.5"ers ... just in front of the stock pickup ...

Not over the single coil ... just toward the nut abit ...

Yep, harmonic bands that were not present ... appeared with the horseshoes in place.

I sent Jason Lollar those sonograms ... he got a kick out of it ... said thats what he hears in a horseshoe pickup.

But I will try. And this may lend credence to what Rick suggests. It is NOT the initial attack that I am hearing. Rather it is in the sustain where to my ears it is most prevalent. Like a generated overtone that rises and falls above and below the decaying picked note. And very pleasant to hear musically.

Words like "wheeeelm" or "mhwahh" or "Swiung" is about the best way I know to put into print. But they do not do it justice. It simply is something you have to hear. I am not sure anyone can truly discribed it adaquately.

There is one caveat. And this IS important. Even Jerry Byrd using the same guitar and same amp plays it in different levels of moan. I find this to be quite true between different players of the same instrument. Let me give you a prime example.

Tom Brumley has called Wayne to Branson with the cry, "I have lost my wow" (tom calls what we refer to as moan, a "wow").

Wayne can go up there and play it, and Tom will say that's it. Whereupon Tom gets plays it and he gets it back again. I find this also true when Wayne plays my steel. To my ears he brings it out more than I do.

So whatever is causing it, the player can bring it out more or less. All I know for really sure is, I Love that moan and have for 60 yrs. It is one of the reasons I love to dig out those old HW and ET records amongst others where Jerry made it moan like no other guitar ever in the history of the steel guitar.

Sorry I could not describe it correctly. As Lori Morgan sang, "you had to be there, you really had to be there!"

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Gerald Ross
'Northwest Ann Arbor, Michigan's King Of The Hawaiian Steel Guitar'

Gerald's Fingerstyle Guitar Website

I'm sayin' it's the physical effect on the vibration patterns on the strings ... nothing to do with the electronics.

Like I said, the best bakelight formulas will resonate better, regardless of the electronics ... but the resulting wave function will also be altered by the presesnce of a 3D magnetic field produced by horseshoe magnets, regardless of electronics.

The stronger the field ... the greater the deviance from the wave function from it's purely acoustic counterpart (no magnetic fields present at all).

These changes in the wave function are apparently well recieved

PS ... I have strung up a prewar B6 without the pickup present, it didn't sound as good ... didn't sustain as long.

Rick, I am aware the magnetic fields around a vibrating string can cause a variation of sound but I don't believe that is what gives the Ricks the "moan" or "wow" we are hearing when Jerry Playes. If such were the case, you would hear it on all steel guitars regardles of material they are made of. I refer to the recordings that Jerry made in his early years on WSM with Foley, Tubb, Williams and the everlasting list of artists he recorded with on King records. All of the stuff I am referring to was done on a 6 and 7 string Rick. Both guitars were the 1938 models since they both had a volume and tone control standard from the factory and as I understand it, these guitars were not available prior to 1938.

I am not trying to start a flaming contest but this just my personal observation. I qualify my opinion with approx 55 years of listening and playing (?) steel and a good many years trying to "play like Jerry Byrd."

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kd...and the beat goes on...

I will dig out some HW recordings tomorrow and try to pick some with and without the moan. And spot where it is. I do not know how to post music on this forum or I would do that also. But I don't know how. I have tried to make it work, but it doesn't. And my DSL provider personal website does not permit music.

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Gerald Ross
'Northwest Ann Arbor, Michigan's King Of The Hawaiian Steel Guitar'

Gerald's Fingerstyle Guitar Website

what is that length?

quote:

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If such were the case, you would hear it on all steel guitars regardles of material they are made of.

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Kenny ... no "flaming contest' from me ...

I simply contend that all Rickys do have "that special something" ...

Bakelite and a player that accentuates the decay of a sustained note using volume/vibrato ... simply make "that special something" more prominantly audible ...

As I have stated often here ... JBs recordings ... which y'all keep referring to ... were made when that B6 and B7 were fairly new ... and fresh off the electromagnet.

60+ yrs takes its toll on the steel magnets retention of field ... therefore TODAY ... most Rickys are well below their "saturated point" ...

I bettcha that if you take the steels you and your friends say "have it" and ones you say "don't" ... and I take the magnets out and check their flux density ... the ones that are moanin' are gonna be the stronger ones.

Now-a-days, there is tremendous variation in field strength of Ricky Magnets ...

Ian M. (forums) 1.5"ers were almost full strength ... while the majority that come to me are 30-60% down.

As far as materials ... do Ricky frypans ... have "the moan" you are referring too ???

The First recording I ever heard "with" that "moan" was, "My Sweet Love Ain't Around". Now if you are listening to it, once Jerry takes his break, go past his "Boowahs" and wait til the last few notes just before the end of the break. You may not hear it at first. But if you listen real careful, your ears will begin to hear an overtone that NO other brand steel guitar has ever gotten, IMO.

In "Rootie Tootie" listen about midways of the recording where Hank sings "no siree", then listen carefully to Jerry playing an octave note lick. The moan is there. But the best is when he takes his break. Wait til after the first dozen notes or so, and then listen to that overtone (moan) ring out. Those overtones fill just about all of the rest of his break. Again, it may take a while for your ears to tune in on what we are talking about.

"Honky Tonkin". listen to that kick off. That moan that sends chills down my spine is as clear as a bell. Then when Jerry takes his break, wait until he starts his long turn around mimicking the kickoff. Almost every note has it. NOTE: at the beginning of the break there is little if any moan!

But one of my all time favorites is "I'll Be a Batchelor 'til I Die". The kick off again is permeated with it. Listen just a millisecond AFTER the picked note to that overtone that rises above and below the sustained note. Again when he takes the break, parts of it have little if any moan. But when it comes in, there is no question if you have once recognized it.

If you can hear that, then you now know what Wayne Tanner, Ray Montee, countless others and I have loved for soooo very long.

Sadly, some still do not recognize it. I trust you will be able to. Also sadder IMO, is many later recordings of Jerry including all his recent ones do not have that moan. Obviously any guitar other than a Rick will not have it, but even some of his Rick recordings don't have it.

He is still the greatest lap steel player who ever lived IMO, But oh how I wish he would still play that bakelite Rick. Because I believe that the thousands of us who grew up listening to that moan on thousands of recordings by sooo many is what we learned to love soooo much.

"I'm a Long Gone Daddy" has it. But what I really love is one can hear it EVEN right after a boowah lick. Listen carefully and I believe it will stand out in this recording.

Now that I have bragged about it so much, let me give you an example of a little too much moan. Yes, IMO the following recording has a just a tad too much. Remember I said JUST a tad. See if you hear what I am hearing in Jerry's break on, "There'll be No Teardrops Tonight".

On a side note, when is the last time you had a rythym section that backed you up like on this recording? I could play forever If I had rythym like that.

The interesting thing is many of us including Tom (as stated) lose it from time to time. The best I have ever heard and the most consistent is Wayne Tanner. He has a touch that drives me nuts.

One other really great Jerry Byrd protege' (Garland Nash) of Atlanta; and he plays so close to Jerry it is awesome, and Garland said, "Listen to Wayne! he does it JUST like Jerry".

And he does. I can get it (moan) bout half the time if I concentrate on it. But I will lapse often and lose it.

Hope this helps.

Jesus bless Jerry Byrd and you dear friend,

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kd...and the beat goes on...

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Gerald Ross
'Northwest Ann Arbor, Michigan's King Of The Hawaiian Steel Guitar'

Gerald's Fingerstyle Guitar Website

I believe some of that "moan" is most evident in Jerry's early album "NANI HAWAII".
I feel it's presence on virtually every song played. Being a non-technical person (I'm lazy!)I can't begin to comment on the words of Rick but I'm confident he is 100% correct.

Hank Williams' (Sr.) "I'm So Lonesome I Could Cry".....is an excellent example of it.
Most of the tunes I've thus far featured on the JBFC site have also displayed this fabulous one-of-a-kind sound that only JB has ever produced on record (IMHO).

Currently "Twilight Blues" and Foley's "A Smile Will CHas Away a Tear" on the JBFC site, once I get the glitch corrected, will also demonstrate what we're all searching for.