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Author
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Topic: New lap steel by Wayne/Charvel, SEXY
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Ron Whitfield
Member From: Kaaawa, Hawaii, USA
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posted 20 September 2004 12:20 PM
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www.wayneguitars.com/lapsteel.html Interesting entry to the steel community, and LOOKS like it should sound good. I'd rewire the knob for tone. And why (why not) a scale of 23.5? What's up with the bridge and nut? Any thots/owners out there?
* Check out the new/Nov. issue of 'Vintage Guitar' for a good review and pic.
[This message was edited by Ron Whitfield on 28 October 2004 at 08:55 PM.]
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John Billings
Member From: Northfield Center, Ohio, USA
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posted 20 September 2004 01:43 PM
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I like it. But I'm not sure about some of their claims. A pickup is an electro-magnetic device, ain't it? Why would vibrations in the wood transfer into a pickup? What does vibrating wood have to do with makin' electricity? Sure,wood selection and other physical characteristics such as fixed/bolt-on neck, nut and bridge materials, etc., can have an effect on how loudly or how long the strings may vibrate, and thereby create more of a magnetic field with the pickup, but does vibrating wood create more electricity? I'm quite possibly wrong, but couldn't you mount the pup in Jello? Gibson pups are frequently mounted with springs, Fenders with surgical tubing or springs.
All that said, I still like the guitar! JB |
Jeff Au Hoy
Member From: Honolulu, Hawai'i
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posted 20 September 2004 02:08 PM
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quote:
Why would vibrations in the wood transfer into a pickup?
Isn't that the whole idea behind the hollow-body electric guitar? Electric guitar material has an impact on the pickup/sound, otherwise we wouldn't fuss over it so much. (?) |
Bill Hatcher
Member From: Atlanta Ga. USA
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posted 20 September 2004 04:04 PM
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As simply as I can relate/understand this--The pickup sees the string vibration.
The body of the instrument affects the vibration of the string that the pickup is seeing. That is why the exact same pickup mounted to 10 different guitars made of different materials/body types etc. will have 10 different sounds.Also take under consideration two identical guitars made from the same species of wood. The differences in the density of the wood, grain structure, weight etc. will cause a difference in the sound even though they have the same electro magnetic pickup. Sometimes the sound difference is subtle, sometimes remarkable. |
Steinar Gregertsen
Member From: Arendal, Norway
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posted 20 September 2004 05:12 PM
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Bill is right,- personally I treat all electric guitars as acoustic instruments, and test their acoustic properties well before I plug them in.
In my opinion a good magnetic pickup should reflect the acoustic tone of the instrument. I don't quite know what to say about the Charvel,- "sexy"? Mmmmmmm, my Asher is "sexy", the Charvel is more like "cute"... I think I like it.. Steinar ------------------
www.gregertsen.com
[This message was edited by Steinar Gregertsen on 20 September 2004 at 05:46 PM.]
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John Billings
Member From: Northfield Center, Ohio, USA
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posted 20 September 2004 07:55 PM
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Jeff, Bill, and Steinar, I think you're are all pretty much agreeing with me. I talked about all those issues, and I agree that a good sounding body is of vital importance, and it certainly effects the strings. The pickups pick up what the string is doing, not actually what the wood (or whatever material the guitar is made of) is doing. On their site, they make the statement that "The pickup is direct mounted to the body for increased sustain and tone. By mounting the pickups directly to the body, the body's vibrations are transferred to the pickups, giving more sustain than conventional mounted pickups." I don't belive that can be true. Remember Les Paul's early experiments. I believe that the first ones involved a piece of railrod track! And, of course, the infamous "Log". The pickup sense the strings vibrations, not the vibrations of the body. If you string up a guitar with monofilament fishing line, will the pickup work? I don't think it will. Yet you'll be able to hear the guitar acoustcally, and the wood will vibrate, but there's no vibrating metal in the pickups magnetic field, hence, no signal. Again, I recognize the importance of a good body, that vibrates nicely, but I don't think mounting the pickup directly to the body could have any noticable effect. If it did, every builder would do it.
I DO like the looks of this guitar, and would consider buying one. But I'm perfectly happy with the Redneck I got from Loni.
Does this make sense? Or am I nutz?
Best, JB |
John Billings
Member From: Northfield Center, Ohio, USA
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posted 20 September 2004 08:16 PM
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Or,,,are all pickups microphonic? I have an ancient Broadcaster pup that's pretty microphonic, but I wouldn't consider that beneficial. |
Steinar Gregertsen
Member From: Arendal, Norway
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posted 20 September 2004 08:23 PM
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quote:
Does this make sense? Or am I nutz?
It *sort of* makes sense, I see your point.
However, this is not the first time I've seen people claim that a pickup mounted directly to the body will sound better (guitarist Eddie Van Halen swears by mounting the pickups this way).
The only reason I can think of is that by making the pickup vibrate more it will make it slightly more microphonic, something that does contribute to the sustain and tone. The downside is of course that once a pickup gets too microphonic it will start to act like a regular microphone and feed back. But I've always found that a slightly microphonic pickup sounds a bit more airy and open than one that has been drowned in wax so the windings are dead tight. I guess it's one of those things that there will always be different opinions about, just like the eternal question "How much better is a string through body design compared to top mounted strings". It's all quite marginal I guess....... Guitarist Eric Johnnson claims that he can hear a difference between various brands of batteries in his effect pedals, and also in which way the guitar cable is plugged in. Go figure....... Sometimes it's best to just play the thing and stop worrying so much.  Doesn't pickup wizard Jason Lollar stop by here from time to time? I'm sure he has an opinion on this. Steinar ------------------
www.gregertsen.com
[This message was edited by Steinar Gregertsen on 20 September 2004 at 08:32 PM.]
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John Billings
Member From: Northfield Center, Ohio, USA
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posted 20 September 2004 08:57 PM
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Jason has rewound pickups for me, and I wish he would chime in, cuz I really don't know the answer. I may be using faulty logic. I'm really curious about this. Would the vibrations in the wood actually be "in tune" with the electro-magnetic fields generated by the string/pickup interaction. I think I'll email jason and see if I can get him to chime in, cuz he'll be able to sort this out. I hope that my thoughts have been expressed clearly, as I know virtually nothing about this subject. And maybe it shows!
JB
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Chuck Fisher
Member From: Santa Cruz, California, USA
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posted 21 September 2004 12:56 AM
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I know strats with metal pickguards sound different than when they are fitted with plastic pickguards. I think the claim is on the level, and thick lacquer especially fresh surely mutes acoustic guitars.I also think all pickups are at least bit microphonic, although potting in wax or similar dampens this a lot. One things for sure, Charvelle made some real nice guitars, flowerey description or not, this is likly real good. I like lacquer anyway, BTW. |
Rick Aiello
Member From: Berryville, VA USA
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posted 21 September 2004 04:45 AM
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If you hold the strings perfectly still ... and oscillate a magnet over them at 220 Hz ... you will get an "A" note produced in the coil ...So its not just the strings ... its the movement of the magnets (body) ... in concert with the strings .. that gives you the signal. And since the sting and the body will not have the same wave functions (due to size, shape, material) ... there will be a summation occuring. This may not be much ... but its all part of the "package".
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HorseshoeMagnets
[This message was edited by Rick Aiello on 21 September 2004 at 04:52 AM.]
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Dan Sawyer
Member From: Studio City, California, USA
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posted 21 September 2004 01:31 PM
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I just bought one of these guitars and i'll post a review when it arrives. I'm guessing the 23.5 inch scale is intentionally exactly in between the traditional 22.5 and 24.5. Anyone here had experience with the Seymour Duncan P-90s on a steel?------------------
Dan Sawyer
Fender Deluxe 8® (stringmaster), Fender Deluxe 8 (trap), Gibson EH-150, Wayne Lap Steel |
Jason Lollar
Member From: Seattle area
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posted 21 September 2004 05:08 PM
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As asked by John B I came and took a look.
I used to have more time to hang out, take a day off here and there, those days are long gone.
There is a combination of alot of things going on that everyone mentioned. The factor people overlook or underestimate is pickup microphonics. Of course too much microphonics can make a pickup unusable so there is a balance there but I can usually tell after listening to a pickup for half a minute if it has any microphonics. Once you clue into the sound it produces its unmistakeable- there is a presence to the sound that is lacking in a heavily potted pickup.
even a waxed pickup will have some level of microphonics- the way the pickup is mounted can have an effect which could be more or less depending on the level of microphonics, the method of mounting and the materials used.
thats my story and i am sticking with it.
I need to talk to wayne! |
Rick Aiello
Member From: Berryville, VA USA
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posted 21 September 2004 06:13 PM
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Here's a very  site ... related to this discussion ...Modal Analysis of Guitar Bodies ------------------
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John Billings
Member From: Northfield Center, Ohio, USA
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posted 21 September 2004 06:50 PM
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Thanks Jason and Rick. Does that mean I'm nutz? Guess so! |
John Billings
Member From: Northfield Center, Ohio, USA
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posted 21 September 2004 08:59 PM
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Rick, interesting site, but I'm not sure about what it has to do with vibrating wood causing a pickup to produce an electronic signal. Did I miss something on the site? I certainly agree that the way a guitar body vibrates has an effect on the way the strings respond, creating all sorts of obvious and subtle variations in the vibration of the strings. But what I still don't understand is how a piece of wood vibrating creates a signal from the pup????? If I mounted a pickup on a 2 foot piece of 2X6, no strings, just wood, and vibrated the 2X6, would there be a signal created from the pup? I'm thinkin' the pup would have to be mucho microphonic to get any sound, and it probably wouldn't be a good sound. If I'm correct, and I really don't know if I am, then why would Charvel's mounting a pup directly to the body have an effect on sustain and tone? It seems like it would be, at best, an invitation to feedback. And, again, if what Charvel says is true, why doesn/t every guitar manufacturer mount ther pups that way? Thanks for all your patience! JB[This message was edited by John Billings on 21 September 2004 at 09:10 PM.] |
Rick Aiello
Member From: Berryville, VA USA
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posted 22 September 2004 04:32 AM
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quote:
If I mounted a pickup on a 2 foot piece of 2X6, no strings, just wood, and vibrated the 2X6, would there be a signal created from the pup?
Alittle ... more if a magnet or piece of steel was suspended ... independantly ... over that installed pickup ... There are various ways to induce an electromagnetic current ... the ones applying to this discussion are: 1) Magnets stationary ... coil in motion. 2) Coil stationary ... magnets in motion. 3) Have both in motion ... at different rates 4) Have the magnets and coil in motion ... and have a steel string (engulfed in the magnet's field) ... stationary ... thus disturbing that moving field. 5) Have the magnets and coil in motion ... and have a steel string (engulfed in the magnet's field) ... vibrating at a different frequency ... thus disturbing that moving field. #5 is the situation in a guitar.
The point of showing that site was to show that the body of any guitar is going to vibrate ... in a very different pattern (wave function) than the strings ... albiet related. Therefore, the pickup (coil & magnets) itself is vibrating at a different (but related) frequency than the strings ... One may argue that the entire string assembly is vibrating at the same frequency as the pickup ... But if you watch the various modes ... you will see that the sites where the strings are attached ... and the position of the pup on the guitar ... exhibit very different movements at any point in time. So there is a cumulative effect ... The strings are disturbing a magnetic field that is already in motion ... As far as why others don't mount directly to the body ... I know guys who have built steels that do ... and sware by it. The more "solid" the connection between pup and guitar ... the "true-er" the pickups movement in concert with the guitar's body. If I could ... I'd mount my horseshoe magnets directly also ... but the whole "adjustable height" thing is more important to folks. So I have to live with the springs As far as microphonics ... I'm exploiting that feature to the MAX ... suspending my pickup in a hole ... surrounded by "Bell-like" solid cast aluminum.
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[This message was edited by Rick Aiello on 26 April 2006 at 05:53 AM.]
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John Billings
Member From: Northfield Center, Ohio, USA
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posted 22 September 2004 08:31 AM
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Thanks Rick! I think I'll stop chewin' on this bone now!
I do like the looks of the Charvel, and I've always liked the P-90 style pup. I like all Gibson single coils, just don't like humbuckers. I will be interested to hear Dan Sawyer's review JB |
Rick Aiello
Member From: Berryville, VA USA
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posted 22 September 2004 09:53 AM
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Well, if you do get the urge to "gnaw" alittle more ...Direct Coupling Jeff Terwilleger ... scroll down to "Pickups" ... Their "statistics" and explainations may be abit "thin" ... but apparently they are real serious about this stuff ... |
Paul Arntson
Member From: Bothell ,WA (just outside Seattle)
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posted 22 September 2004 10:54 AM
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The issue I have when reading anything off Mr. Roman's site is separating the bombast from the fact. (Like imagining Ted Nugent playing Moonlight in Vermont or Dick Dale playing a minuet.)
But I agree that Mr. Terwilliger states his case very reasonably.
It makes sense to me that anything that influences the equation of relative motion between the string and the pickup would influence the sound. It's a question of degree, mostly. Blastedly difficult to AB blind test. AB testing philosophies could be another whole thread, as could this...
[This message was edited by Paul Arntson on 22 September 2004 at 11:00 AM.] |
Rick Aiello
Member From: Berryville, VA USA
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posted 22 September 2004 11:10 AM
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I certainly didn't post the link to Ed Roman for his expertise on any subject ...In fact I said both his and JETs explaination was "thin" ... More to respond to ... quote:
I recognize the importance of a good body, that vibrates nicely, but I don't think mounting the pickup directly to the body could have any noticable effect. If it did, every builder would do it.
As always, I'm just tryin' to explain stuff the best i know how. |
John Billings
Member From: Northfield Center, Ohio, USA
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posted 22 September 2004 11:22 AM
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Ah, Rick, Ed Roman,,,,,,,,Be careful of this guy! Most do not consider him credible on any matters. If you go over to the FDP, and do a search, you'll find amazing amounts of material proving what an incredible jerk he is. Some of the stories are dumbfounding. Some of what he says may actually be right, but you'd need other sources before accepting Roman's word. He's a shameless self-promoter, and, according to other postings about him, he will say anything to boost his products and discredit other's. I've never had any dealings with him, but this is what the vast majority say about him.
Best, JB |
Jeff Au Hoy
Member From: Honolulu, Hawai'i
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posted 22 September 2004 11:33 AM
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Well, no offense to original poster Ron (who might have used the description "sexy" tongue in cheek anyway)... but I think the guitar is hardly sexy.In fact, I'd describe it as "butt-ugly". |
Rick Aiello
Member From: Berryville, VA USA
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posted 22 September 2004 11:42 AM
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quote:
but you'd need other sources before accepting Roman's word.
Again ... I wasn't posting this link for Ed Rowans advice, statistics, views, etc ... Merely to show its not only Charvel that is using this "Direct" approach to pickup mounting. John, the only source I used to try and describe/explain to you the benefits of mounting a pickup as tightly to the body of a guitar as possible ... Was Faraday's Law of Induction. |
Dan Sawyer
Member From: Studio City, California, USA
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posted 22 September 2004 12:22 PM
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Some more thoughts. I actually agree with Jeff and think it's kind of ugly. Especially the peghead. I figured i could always cut some of that excess wood off the headstock if it really bothers me. So why did i buy this? I want to experiment with mounting palm pedals or a hipshot on a lap steel and that requires at least 6.5 inches behind the bridge. The Wayne lap steel has plently of room there, looks to be well built and has the cool aircraft aluminum bridge and nut. BTW, it is not a "Charvel" brand guitar. It is a Wayne. Charvel was his old company.Update: the guitar still hasn't arrived, but it looks like there might NOT be 6.5 inches behing the bridge. Oh well, i'll still post a review when it arrives. ------------------
Dan Sawyer
Fender Deluxe 8® (stringmaster), Fender Deluxe 8 (trap), Gibson EH-150, Wayne Lap Steel[This message was edited by Dan Sawyer on 26 September 2004 at 02:03 PM.] |
Dwayne Martineau
Member From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
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posted 22 September 2004 01:30 PM
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quote:
(Like imagining Ted Nugent playing Moonlight in Vermont or Dick Dale playing a minuet.)
I'm sure, if challenged, Ted Nugent would happily record a version of "Bow-Hunting by Moonlight in Vermont" I'm sure he's done it, if not written about it. I like the body of these steels, but the head is a little too pointy for me. You know what happens with sharp points on guitars-- they go right for the eyes. Will this design appeal to a lot of lap steel players?
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John Billings
Member From: Northfield Center, Ohio, USA
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posted 22 September 2004 01:31 PM
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Ah, This Farady's Law of Induction? http://spiff.rit.edu/classes/phys213/lectures/faraday/faraday_long.html
Now I'm really lost!!!! Rick, thanks for trying to help me understand this interesting subject. JB |
Rick Aiello
Member From: Berryville, VA USA
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posted 22 September 2004 01:43 PM
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Yep ... that be the one.Those notes are pretty cool ... When I used to write physics tests ... my favorite "subjects" were Tarzan and Super Dave Osborne |
Paul Arntson
Member From: Bothell ,WA (just outside Seattle)
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posted 22 September 2004 09:32 PM
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Rick - I wish I'd had you for a physics teacher. I'd have been much more receptive to the ideas if they had involved guitar pickups or Super Dave's trajectories.I really appreciate the info everytime I read one of your posts. |
Dan Sawyer
Member From: Studio City, California, USA
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posted 28 September 2004 12:40 PM
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I received the Wayne lap steel guitar yesterday. I'll try to write another review after i've owned it for a while, but here are some first impressions. Surprisingly, the whole thing is made out of one piece of wood! In other words, the neck is not glued onto the body. It is part of the body. It's pretty light weight, too. The wood feels really nice, being oil finished. The whole thing is very well made without being flashy. And i take back the comments about it being ugly. In person, this thing looks really good in an understated way. The tuners are locking, and have very smooth action. The Seymour P-90 sounds pretty good, but i'm not sure it's ideal for this guitar. I had to adjust the pole pieces higher on the first two strings to get them in balance. Since P-90s do hum, it might be better to have a humbucking p.u. for recording. The volume control is pretty easy to adjust while playing. Fretboard markers are attractive and easy to read. I wish it extended past the 24th fret. The sustain is very good, especially on the bass strings. Tone-wise, it still doesn't beat my EH-150 but it's a good sounding steel. and that scale length is a good compomise. Special mention must be made for the case. It's made like a 1960s Fender lap steel case, out of real wood and has nice pockets inside for picks, bars, etc. Very cool. [This message was edited by Dan Sawyer on 28 September 2004 at 12:45 PM.] [This message was edited by Dan Sawyer on 28 September 2004 at 01:34 PM.] [This message was edited by Dan Sawyer on 28 September 2004 at 01:40 PM.]
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Dan Sawyer
Member From: Studio City, California, USA
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posted 28 September 2004 11:46 PM
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Just found a website with a nice collection of lap steels. Funny enough, one of them looks like the inspiration for the Wayne lap steel. A National model 1133. http://www.harleyguitars.com/guitars.html |
Loni Specter
Member From: West Hills, CA, USA
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posted 29 September 2004 10:00 AM
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Yes it does grab a bit of style from that National. Familiarity is a good thing in guitars. The only steel out there that's completely original is the Harmos. |
Ron Whitfield
Member From: Kaaawa, Hawaii, USA
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posted 29 September 2004 12:07 PM
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Congrat's on getting such a cool steel and I'm glad to hear your initial thots on it.As for the PU possibly being a/the weak link, do you think a rewiring, replacement, or a tone knob would be a key factor in it's overall sonic improvement? Exactly how does it compare with your Gibson (with CC PU?)? Most that I have heard were heavy on the low mids and pretty creamy. How does the bridge feel (if you use it for muting)? Nice to know it looks even better in person. Enjoy! [This message was edited by Ron Whitfield on 29 September 2004 at 12:07 PM.]
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Dan Sawyer
Member From: Studio City, California, USA
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posted 30 September 2004 05:17 PM
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Ron, i'm actually a new player, so take what i say with a grain of salt. I don't think a rewire would do anything to help the pu. It actually sounds pretty good but the hum bothers me. If i wanted to gig with this, a humbucking would be the ticket. It would be quiet and i like a pu that can be raised and lowered. BTW, there are humbucking pickups that look just like p-90s. Your take on the CC pickup is exactly right; lots of throaty mids. I love that pickup! This guitar has more sustain but it sounds more like a Fender. In other words it's brighter and thinner sounding, (not sure if that's the pickup or the guitar or both.) But, it also has more sustain, especially in the bass strings where the gibson seems to fade out too soon sometimes. The bridge is actually fine for muting and feels smooth and comfortable under hand. I don't actually mute there, but i don't see why you couldn't. |
Jerry Hayes
Member From: Virginia Beach, Va.
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posted 01 October 2004 05:34 AM
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I really like the looks of the Wayne. It sort of resembles that old Bigsby guitar made for Merle Travis. As far as the pickup discussion it's a fact that if you take a PAF humbucker or almost any other pickup and put it on a Gibson L5 and a Les Paul if you record both guitars with the exact same settings, they'll actually sound different....Have a good 'un..JH------------------
Livin' in the Past and the Future with a 12 string Mooney Universal tuning. |
Ron Whitfield
Member From: Kaaawa, Hawaii, USA
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posted 28 October 2004 08:54 PM
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In the new edition of 'Vintage Guitar' is a positive review of this steel, with a nice close up shot of the entire top/neck showing the interesting inlays.Yep, SEXY! |
George Piburn
Member From: San Diego, California, USA
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posted 06 November 2004 10:35 AM
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Hello from GeorgeBoards This is a Really excellent looking instrument and well thought out, Congratulations on another Awesome Lap Steel. I have read that Jerry Byrd likes the "Through the Body" idea of String attachment and it's ability to add to the sustain etc. The tuners are among the finest made.
I am also a big fan of the Direct pull from the NUT to the Tuners concept. I am noticing no discussion of the String Spacing. Fret Accuracy. And General Play- Ability. The Nut and Bridge made from the Aircraft Aluminum is really cool - harder , shinyer - works better with tools - Thanks Wayne and Son for your great contribution to the future of Steel Guitars George Boards |
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