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Author
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Topic: Resonators and Trillogy problem?
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basilh
Member From: United Kingdom
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posted 11 September 2005 02:43 AM
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In another thread I posed the question regarding "Trillogy" and Resonator Guitars..There were no takers, so here I go gain...I have found that there is a problem using a "Trilogy" on a resonator guitar:
Because of the varying string pressure on the cone, even if the "Trilogy" is set up correctly for pitch on each SINGLE string, when you use it to change more than one string,the other strings go out of tune to a greater or lesser degree,(Dependent on how many strings you raise or lower) Even lowering just one string a whole step as apposed to a semitone, the tuning of adjacent strings changes because of the cone flexing..
Does ANYONE know a workaround for this ?
Baz
BTW, I'm talking "Spider", I can't comment on the "Biscuit" You can try it yourself without a "Trilogy".. tune your guitar and then de-tune one of the strings a whole step and re-check the overall tuning !!
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quote:
Steel players do it without fretting
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Dave Boothroyd
Member From: The Malvern Hills
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posted 11 September 2005 02:57 AM
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I don't think that this is fixable, Basil.
The whole point of any resonator guitar, and this applies to banjos too, is that the bridge is on a flexible mounting. As well as the massive improvement in acoustic coupling between the string and the sound producing diaphragm which produces the extra volume which was the point of the design, the flex produces a variation in the string tension during the duration of the note. This you get the characteristic pitch envelope of a reso guitar note. (And that's why banjos are always out of tune at some part of each note and very loud)
Unfortunately, because all the strings share a membrane they affect each other.
You are going to need a guitar with a separate resonator for each string if you want to operate "raises and lowers" without affecting other strings.
It could be done, but I don't think anyone has ever done it. ------------------
Cheers!
Dave |
basilh
Member From: United Kingdom
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posted 11 September 2005 03:03 AM
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Yep That's what I was thinking Dave..But as you say a cone for each string..
like a tri-cone but for all six strings and call it a SEX-Cone oops !!
You may have noticed the unintentional spelling mistake "Trillogy" well is seems that I can partly justify my use of the double "L"
quote:
Main Entry: 2trill
Function: noun
Etymology: Italian trillo probably of imitative origin
1 a : the alternation of two musical tones a diatonic second apart -- called also shake
[correction[This message was edited by basilh on 11 September 2005 at 03:26 AM.] |
basilh
Member From: United Kingdom
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posted 11 September 2005 03:05 AM
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So basically ..the resonator community who use "Trilogies", don't consider tuning an issue ?It's a new steel related terminology "Cone Drop" !! so far the smallest value I've found is around 15 cents.. I know that pedal steel players would find that unacceptable, so why hasn't this issue been pointed out before now.. There are some MAJOR players using the "Trilogy
quote:
But that's only the beginning! Just imagine what new tricks your old "Hound Dog" can learn with the new Trilogy TMB5. Instantly flick between tunings for unbelievable versatility. Be sure to include our newly designed Roller Nut to virtually eliminate string/nut friction and ensure high tuning accuracy
Unbelievable versatility but unusable tunings, and the "Roller Nut" sales pitch is a real Red Herring !! it's totally negated by the "Cone Drop" [This message was edited by basilh on 11 September 2005 at 03:19 AM.] |
Chris Morrison
Member From: Massachusetts, USA
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posted 11 September 2005 06:05 AM
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Here's a thought: some bright engineer should be able to design a mechanical changer that would account for "cone dip" -- it would accomplish the retuning that us humans apply after changing a string. (would be really tricky to set up). Or how about this: a changer with microprocessor-driven compensator that would listen to each string (right after a tuning change) and apply the corrections with servomotor-driven tuning machines. In this age of electromechanical mechanization, it should be possible. Whether the market size would make it profitable is an entirely separate issue ;-)
...FWIW, Chris |
D Schubert
Member From: Columbia, MO, USA
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posted 11 September 2005 06:14 AM
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This was discussed in a thread I started, date was April 7th. |
basilh
Member From: United Kingdom
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posted 11 September 2005 06:29 AM
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Yes Dave..here..
click here [This message was edited by basilh on 11 September 2005 at 06:30 AM.] |
Rick Alexander
Member From: Florida, USA
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posted 11 September 2005 09:18 AM
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quote:
like a tri-cone but for all six strings and call it a SEX-Cone oops !!
Let me know when they go into production Baz - I'll take one.
I just want to see the look on peoples' faces when I tell them I play a SEX-Cone . . [This message was edited by Rick Alexander on 11 September 2005 at 09:18 AM.]
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AJ Azure
Member From: Massachusetts, USA
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posted 11 September 2005 09:48 AM
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I'm about to inatall one myself with roller nut. I think the nut is still worth it instead of bone. The Delrin stuff does nothing for me. As to the drastic shifts, here's my thought; even with the tuning adjustments, does it hellp in the long run? Can you still use it for other limited tunings? I know this will be a life saver as tuning by hand is a real pain with the gnarled hands that i have been belssed with. Ic na do it but, the flick fo a elvel for changing form G6 to G and afew other slight adjutments seems worth it. So if i want open D, I will plan on haivng toa djust my overall tuning. Evetually they'l,lbuil,d abettr mouse trap.Sex cone huh? Umm reso cones recycled as bra cups? Could work! OOh a new business venture! lol |
Craig Prior
Member From: National City, California, USA
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posted 11 September 2005 11:28 AM
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I have a Trilogy on a spider-bridge Dobro. I have it set up for C6 and related tunings. This means the string guages are pretty light. Each adjusters is spaced no greater than a minor third for the SUM of all three positions.Light guages + small increments in tuning seem to equal few tuning problems. Also, using the pegs for small adjustments is normal. Mis dos centavos. Craig. P.S. I mentioned my set-up and tunings in this threadand this thread. |
basilh
Member From: United Kingdom
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posted 12 September 2005 11:32 AM
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Craig.. thanks for the info especially with regard to the light strings. I have mine set up for C6 A6 E6 etc but, quote:
Also, using the pegs for small adjustments is normal.
I don't think the Idea behind the "Trilogy" was for you to have to re-tune every time you engaged it !! The principle is that the "Trilogy" does the retuning for you.They promise on their web site some 700+ tunings.. they omit to tell you how many will be unuseable..because of "Cone Drop" what they say is quote:
Imagine this:
With a simple flick of a lever, you can instantly re-tune (or transpose) accurately and easily to the tuning of your choice... Even in the middle of a song! And you have hundreds of tunings to choose from... 729 to be exact!
I think the terms ACCURATELY and "Even in the middle of a song", are stretching the truth just a little..
Δύο σεντ μου..
i miei due centesimi
見解
meus dois centavos
Basil |
AJ Azure
Member From: Massachusetts, USA
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posted 12 September 2005 11:38 AM
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Basil I forget but, isn't that the generaa schpeel for the device? Meaning that they also say this for the electric version. They probably should have changed the marketing to be more reso specific. |
Brad Bechtel
Moderator From: San Francisco, CA
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posted 12 September 2005 02:21 PM
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Basil,
Which tunings are you using? Which tuning are you changing from and which tuning are you changing to when you use the Hipshot Trilogy?
I'm surprised this is an issue, since people like Jerry Douglas and Pete Grant use this tool regularly and don't seem to have the problems you're having. (Perhaps they do and haven't mentioned it somewhere!)------------------
Brad's Page of Steel
A web site devoted to acoustic & electric lap steel guitars |
basilh
Member From: United Kingdom
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posted 12 September 2005 02:37 PM
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Brad I had a VERY comprehensive reply made out for you and hit the "Submit" button before I entered my User-name and Password..Of course when I went back the text was gone.. Is there anyway of stopping this happening other than me getting a "Brain" transplant ? |
Tom Jordan
Member From: Santa Maria, CA, USA
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posted 12 September 2005 02:41 PM
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Basil,Although I love my gadgets, I've shy'd away from the reso' benders. My mechanical mind tells me that the guitar is too "flimsy" for bending a string a whole step with out affecting the tuning of others. Not only do you have to overcome the "cone dip" but friction is also a major concern. Have you ever tuned a fiddle and watched the bridge start to lean forward as the strings are tensioned? Our course reso strings are trying to do the same thing on our wood bridge as well as the nut. If'n you had a roller bridge and nut, I think the guitars' flexing would me minimized. Somebody will probably come up with one (Hipshot?) with enough complaints due to performance. It seems that one could ride in the spider bridge slot. Tom Jordan[This message was edited by Tom Jordan on 12 September 2005 at 02:42 PM.] |
basilh
Member From: United Kingdom
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posted 12 September 2005 02:55 PM
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I Try again ...
Brad, the tunings I am using are mentioned above, but I'll elaborate..
I'm tuned to an OPEN tuning With the levers all DOWN FULLY, of E13
E-C#-B-G#-E-D (First to last)
I have the levers set to give me
C6
E-C-A-G-E-C
A6
E-C#-A-F#-E-C#
And others..The string Gauges HAVE to be substantial or the sound will be much too thin.. Notwithstanding my problems, I have E-Mailed Hipshot with a request to buy an 8 String Trilogy and an 8 string and 6 string Roller Nut..No reply.. I do believe that the mechanics of the resonator guitar make accurate use of this unit not attainable.
As for leading players using it, that is so, but it doesn't explain why it goes out of tune..Maybe they are just prepared to put up with it.. I wouldn't..Over here we have very strict advertising laws.. and the "Trade descriptions act" The Company would be told in no uncertain terms to re-word their advertising.. I have no beef with the guy who sold me the Trilogy..it was a bargain,(Compared to it's new price) BUT, HIpshot's claims misled me into thinking it would work "Accurately" (Their words..see above) on a Resonator..
I now believe that to be not true but am still prepared to buy one and put it on one of my single 8's. |
Jim Bates
Member From: Alvin, Texas, USA
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posted 12 September 2005 02:58 PM
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Simple solution is to get another resonator and tune it in another key. Also, use a capo, as practical. Jerry Douglas had three guitars on stage last time I saw him.
One guitar in G, another capoed to A, and a third tuned to D.Any 'gimmicks' you put on a resonator guitar can destroy the sound (and the tuning). To eliminate 'cone drop' you will eliminate the sound quality and volume. Thanx,
Jim |
basilh
Member From: United Kingdom
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posted 12 September 2005 02:59 PM
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Tom.. I like your idea..It would certainly help, but it wouldn't stop the changes in downward pressure on the cone as you alter the tuning..
BTW I have just got a reply from Hipshot regarding my order.. |
basilh
Member From: United Kingdom
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posted 12 September 2005 03:04 PM
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Jim I am in agreement with you, the only thing i can add is that I didn't think that a "High End" device like a Trilogy would turn out to be just as you say, "A Gimmick".
I have a Shubb Dobro capo, and I can say that it's just the "Dog's Bxxxxcks" (An English Colloquialism and it's not buttocks!!)
Another one that springs to mind is the saying "It does What it Says on the Tin" !!
But some don't..
There is also the fact that I was led to believe that you could change tunings during a song (Hipshot's words.. see above)[This message was edited by basilh on 12 September 2005 at 03:08 PM.] |
Lee Baucum
Member From: McAllen (Extreme South) TX - The Final Frontier
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posted 12 September 2005 03:24 PM
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I don't know how the Trilogy works. Are all six strings tunable with each position of the lever? If so, couldn't you just make a very minor tuning adjustment (on the device) for each of the strings that are going out of whack? Much like we use compensators on pedal steels to tweak a string or two.Lee, from South Texas |
basilh
Member From: United Kingdom
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posted 12 September 2005 04:17 PM
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No Lee It doesn't work like that.. Each string has a 3 position tunable lever.
Each lever can be adjusted to tune the string up or down from the "Center" position the "Fine tuning" is done at the position that the lever is put to..BUT when you operate another TUNED lever or when you put the lever to another position, they interact with the OVERALL tuning and everything ends up way out.."COne Drop"
BAz |
Craig Prior
Member From: National City, California, USA
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posted 13 September 2005 08:29 AM
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Basil, I hear your frustration and I sympathize. I know how it is when a piece of gear just refuses to work right.When I got my Trilogy I figured instantaneous retuning of a Dobro is probably expecting a bit much. I anticipated doing some fine tuning at the pegs. The pamphlet that came with it says: "TUNING TIPS... Notes common between tunings, especially on low strings, may need some adjusting to compensate for neck flex or cabinet drop. You can do this quickly and easily by a slight adjustment of the tuning peg. ..." It doesn't mention "cone flex" but I think that is what's happening here. Basil, I doubt we'll ever find a device that instantaneously retunes a resonator guitar.  Craig. |
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