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Author
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Topic: Non pedal popularity among pedal pushers
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HowardR
Member From: N.Y.C.,N.Y.
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posted 11 December 2005 02:25 PM
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Within the last year or two, it seems to me that pedal steel players are taking more of an interest in non pedal steels and discovering, or re discovering lap steels, consoles, and dobros.Anyone else agree? |
MUSICO
Member From: Jeremy Williams in Spain
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posted 11 December 2005 02:47 PM
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I agree from what I see on Forum.I agree because it´s happening to me. Jeremy Williams
Barcelona Spain |
c c johnson
Member From: killeen,tx usa
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posted 11 December 2005 02:57 PM
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They are much more fun to play; besides you play them instead of a mechanism playing you. CC |
Jeff Au Hoy
Member From: Honolulu, Hawai'i
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posted 11 December 2005 03:06 PM
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As a non peddler who "discovered" pedals this past year, I have to say that in comparison pedals are a pain in the butt to setup, dismantle and transport (my experience is limited to Fender 1000s). I think there's a certain satisfaction in being able to do it without pedals, but at the same time that's just a technical challenge. Music isn't automatically more beautiful for me just because it was played without pedals. |
Howard Tate
Member From: Leesville, Louisiana, USA
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posted 11 December 2005 03:20 PM
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I see them as two different instruments, they sound different and I love both. ------------------
Howard, 'Les Paul Recording, Zum SD12U, Carter D10 8/8, Vegas 400, Boss ME-5, Boss DM-3, DD-3, Fender Steel King, Understanding wife. http://www.Charmedmusic.com
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Gerald Ross
Member From: Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
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posted 11 December 2005 03:34 PM
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Look at the average age of the people on this forum  .Maybe peddlers are tired of carrying 200 plus pounds of gear to a gig and taking all that time to set up and tear down. Typically a peddler will have a double neck steel in a flight case with all it's rods, gears and pulleys, a volume pedal, a huge 75 lb amp and a pack-a-seat. Non peddlers typically carry a tiny lap steel, a small amp and a pint of scotch. ------------------
Gerald Ross
'Northwest Ann Arbor, Michigan's King Of The Hawaiian Steel Guitar' 
CEO, CIO, CFO - UkeTone Records
Gerald's Fingerstyle Guitar Website
Board of Directors Hawaiian Steel Guitar Association |
HowardR
Member From: N.Y.C.,N.Y.
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posted 11 December 2005 03:37 PM
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I brought this up because relatively recently, it seems that pedal steelers are taking more of an interest in bar slants, string pulls, and at least knowing how they can get a phrase or licks without using levers & pedals. Tommy White showed up here recently on a Tricone thread. Seems like more steelers are interested in resophonics. Reece & Bobbe have been actively playing and posting with regard to non pedal. Of course since Buddy Emmons and Lloyd Green use non pedal techniques in their pedal steel playing, that influences players. There were three sets of non pedal at the PSGA show this year....Jody, Bobbe Seymore, & Lonnie Bennett. At the Dallas show last year, there were two sets with dobro and a non pedal class. This year there'll be some workshops. I see more interest. That's a great thing.[This message was edited by HowardR on 11 December 2005 at 03:42 PM.] |
Rick Aiello
Member From: Berryville, VA USA
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posted 11 December 2005 03:39 PM
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quote:
and a pint of scotch
That would be a fifth of Myer's rum ... in my case  ------------------
Aiello's Cast Steel Guitars
My wife and I don't think alike. She donates money to the homeless and I donate money to the topless! ... R. Dangerfield
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HowardR
Member From: N.Y.C.,N.Y.
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posted 11 December 2005 03:43 PM
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Rick, your BronzePan weighed more than some pedal steels... 
dang it b0b....I'll make the hats around here! [This message was edited by HowardR on 11 December 2005 at 03:44 PM.]
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Rick Aiello
Member From: Berryville, VA USA
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posted 11 December 2005 03:47 PM
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How much does a D10 weigh ... ?? My bronze 6 string Dustpan is 42 pounds ... My aluminum 8 string Dustpans are around 15 lbs. The Boobpans (double necks) are around 35 lbs ...
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Aiello's Cast Steel Guitars
My wife and I don't think alike. She donates money to the homeless and I donate money to the topless! ... R. Dangerfield
[This message was edited by Rick Aiello on 11 December 2005 at 04:06 PM.]
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Bob Hickish
Member From: Port Ludlow, Washington, USA
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posted 11 December 2005 09:26 PM
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HowardR
have gone full circle ! I played Non ped !
to peds and back ! one reason for this
is ! when it come to pedals ! IMO - the word
Suck ! covered my ability to reach the level
set by real musicians , not to mention
a 20 year lay off and could not see going
back to - That word - Non ped is home
for me .
So far working out grate - plenty jobs .
BUT !
still working on getting past that word .
Hick |
George Keoki Lake
Member From: Edmonton, AB., Canada
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posted 11 December 2005 10:06 PM
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Gerald covered this topic perfectly. I recall talking with Billy Hew Len and asking why he gave up on pedals. His reasoning was the time it took to set-up, knock-down, plus the rust factor in the mechanism. Billy ended up playing (fabulously) his compact JB Frypan.Pedals are great when played by musicians who fully understand the wide range of chordal possibilities. (ie...BILL STAFFORD, et al). I love GOOD pedal steel work however, my real listening preferance will always be the non-pedal...especially Hawaiian music. |
richard burton
Member From: Britain
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posted 12 December 2005 05:21 AM
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Pedals for me every time!!
I am hopeless at non-pedal, my bar slanting is way out of tune.
I sound like a cat being dragged by it's tail, under a door.
My PSG playing is only marginally better.... |
Stephen Gambrell
Member From: Ware Shoals, South Carolina, USA
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posted 12 December 2005 05:34 AM
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I've played dobro for years, and decided to give the pedal machine a try a couple of years ago. It frustrates the &#^#%@* out of me that I can't instinctively find stuff on that big ol' pedal steel, that I can get to with my eyes closed on the dobro... |
Erv Niehaus
Member From: Litchfield, MN, USA
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posted 12 December 2005 07:24 AM
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I took up pedal steel for the ability to get full, 3 string chords. However, I still like to return to my "roots". 
Erv |
HowardR
Member From: N.Y.C.,N.Y.
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posted 12 December 2005 07:44 AM
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Erv, that's what I'm talking about. The playing aspect. I've heard pedal steelers say that their playing has improved, or has become less mechanical sounding by playing and learning more on non pedal.In turn, they are more aware of the fretboard and where/how to find voicings other than where they're used by mechanical means. Then they can also use the levers & pedals along with slanting to really expand their musical palette.....I think. |
Bill McCloskey
Member From:
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posted 12 December 2005 07:53 AM
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I have a love for both, especially as I get more and more into focusing on Jazz. There is nothing like the sound of the Superslide and its great just to be able to pick it up and play it anywhere I want in the house. However, as I explore the pedal steel keyboard more, I realize what an amazing beast it is for getting those beautiful jazz chords and - for lead work- the ability to reach any note in the scale on from one bar position. |
Doug Beaumier
Member From: Northampton, MA
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posted 12 December 2005 09:19 AM
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Howard, You’re absolutely right. Playing lap steel in recent years has changed the way I approach pedal steel… for the better. Instead of using pedals constantly, I feel more at ease with slides and slants now. In some songs I play an entire solo without touching the pedals. For certain styles this sounds better than the pedals would. It’s certainly smoother. And I have noticed that audiences respond to that type of a solo more. There’s something about the simplicity and the smooth sound of slides that people can relate to. I think it’s part visual and part audio. Lap steel has forced me to think and rethink what notes are in the chords, where to get the voicings, what slants sound best, the root, 3rd, etc… this is all good and useful stuff for pedal steel too. I find myself playing lots of non-pedal licks now on PSG and this is good… it’s one more color for the palette. A couple of years ago I recorded this rock/blues/slide demo on pedal steel for some of my students. 90% of it was played without the use of pedals. To hear the mp3 click here ------------------
My Site - Instruction | My SteelTab
[This message was edited by Doug Beaumier on 12 December 2005 at 09:24 AM.] |
Gary Morrison
Member From: Centennial, CO, USA
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posted 12 December 2005 09:28 AM
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Here is my typical setup. Double your pleasure, double your fun!
 [This message was edited by Gary Morrison on 12 December 2005 at 10:13 AM.] |
HowardR
Member From: N.Y.C.,N.Y.
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posted 12 December 2005 09:47 AM
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Gary, I think you dashed where you should have slashed!...... |
Nick Reed
Member From: Springfield, TN
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posted 12 December 2005 10:10 AM
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Howard R,
I agree with you 100%. I've always had a Lap Steel or two setting around the house but last September my wife decided she wanted to learn non-pedal. So it's naturally made me take more interest.
Sunday we went to see her almost completed late 50's Fender D-8 Stringmaster which is being restored. It's looking mighty good with it's fresh new paint-job. Most of the metal has cleaned up very nice. Also Jerry has replaced some of the old fraded & worn-out wiring. About the only thing we're lacking now are two good original Fender legs. I want a couple that are not rusted. Once we find those, she'll have a brand new Fender Stringmaster. Needless to say she's anxious! NR[This message was edited by Nick Reed on 12 December 2005 at 10:16 AM.] |
Gary Morrison
Member From: Centennial, CO, USA
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posted 12 December 2005 10:14 AM
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Howard:
I must have sliced instead of diced. So I finally used the cheese slicer and figured it out! |
Gene Jones
Member From: Oklahoma City, OK USA
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posted 12 December 2005 10:30 AM
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*[This message was edited by Gene Jones on 05 April 2006 at 04:49 AM.] |
Dave White
Member From: Fullerton, California USA
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posted 12 December 2005 11:10 AM
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Doug--I agree with you. I played a lap steel for a couple of years before I tried pedal steel, and I have approached it from that point of view. At the same time, the pedals and bars can sure come in handy, so I've been trying to incorporate both styles into PSG. I do think it is a visual experience as well, and people like watching the left hand sliding up and down the neck as opposed to just holding the bar in one place and mashing pedals and knee bars. As a newbie, I'm still discovering what works best for me, but the lap steel was a great influence--and I still play it, too. |
Mark Eaton
Member From: Windsor, Sonoma County, CA
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posted 12 December 2005 11:50 AM
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I don't play pedal.That said, my next musical instrument purchase is probably going to be a 12-string SuperSlide, at some point after the 1st of the year. I handle vocals, dobro, and some six-string lap in front of people in a couple of different band configurations. I would love to play pedal, but I'm thinking that once I get used to the string spacing on the 12-string non-pedal, and get some sort of handle on the Reece Anderson tuning as discussed in the the thread started by Musico, that I will be able to put the instrument to work for our group in a shorter period of time than if I had to "woodshed" on the pedal steel. Another year or so down the line, and with the wife's approval, maybe I can budget for a decent single neck pedal steel and take the flying leap into the world of pedals. The other thing, by doing a lot of vocals, to be able to stand up and play and sing (with telescoping) legs seems to be a more natural thing than trying to chip in vocals on a song's chorus while sitting and doing the whole "it's like flying a helicopter" thing of the pedal steel guitar. ------------------
Mark
[This message was edited by Mark Eaton on 12 December 2005 at 12:38 PM.] |
Steinar Gregertsen
Member From: Arendal, Norway
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posted 12 December 2005 12:28 PM
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I want a pedal steel for my 50th birthday (that's 3 years from now),- mostly because of the harmonic possibilities. I think (but I don't know) that the way you 'work' the steelbar when playing lap steel solos helps you 'connect' better to what you're playing. Just a theory of mine.....Steinar ------------------
www.gregertsen.com
[This message was edited by Steinar Gregertsen on 12 December 2005 at 12:45 PM.]
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Bill McCloskey
Member From:
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posted 12 December 2005 01:04 PM
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It is hard to believe but I'm creeping up on one year with my pedal steel. I feel like I'm just starting to crack it. It sat idle for a long while, just too frustrating. but I kept at it little by little. It is just beginning to get a little fun, but man it has been hard faught. It least with a guitar you can strum out Blowing in the Wind after a couple of weeks. I'm just now starting to jam with it. But last night it really started to sound good. But at least 3 times in the last year I was ready to sell it. |
C. Brattain
Member From: Balch Springs, Texas, usa
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posted 12 December 2005 01:25 PM
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At 73 yeas of age I really like nonpedals much, much better because I do not have to walk around while I am playing. |
Don Kona Woods
Member From: Vancouver, Washington, USA
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posted 12 December 2005 02:27 PM
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Speaking of musical expression of the steel guitar communicated to the audience, let's say over several measures, and where it can be fully appreciated by listener rather than player - Assume we are playing with a band. Is it best done with chordal expression, playing with as many notes as possible? or Is it best done with single string picking with emphasis on melody line or some variation thereof? Whatsha think? Aloha,
Don
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Stephan Miller
Member From: Silver Spring, Maryland, USA
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posted 12 December 2005 02:52 PM
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Howard-- I think there's a lot of movement across the border in both directions. Two months ago I couldn't have imagined myself behind a pedal steel, but now I kinda hear it calling. The moving tones and expanded harmonic range available for country, jazz and much more-- thinking about this a lot.At the same time, my hands are full just trying to learn and develop an 8-string non-pedal (lo-hi 6/b7-1-3-5-6-1-3-5) tuning. Hacking my way through a couple of jazz tunes and making new discoveries every day. There's a whole bunch of cool 3- and 4-string chords under the straight bar-- add in slants, bends and open strings and it's a real treasure hunt... Next move could be the 10/12 string SS route, and from there probably pedals. All I can say for sure is: I'm in enough trouble right now! --Steve |
Rick Aiello
Member From: Berryville, VA USA
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posted 12 December 2005 02:52 PM
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quote:
Is it best done with single string picking with emphasis on melody line or some variation thereof?
This gets my vote ... An occasional double stop or chord strum is a nice embelishment ... at the end of a phrase. But my enjoyment of playing increased "many fold" ... when I abandoned the idea of harmonizing each note in the melody. Just my opinion ... ------------------
Aiello's Cast Steel Guitars
My wife and I don't think alike. She donates money to the homeless and I donate money to the topless! ... R. Dangerfield
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HowardR
Member From: N.Y.C.,N.Y.
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posted 12 December 2005 03:42 PM
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Have an arsenal full of various ammunition and fire the appropriate round at the appropriate time.
And yes, Stephan....it's moving in both directions.
Roy Thompson has been putting pedal changes on the Leavitt tuning (posted in Pedal Steel or Steel Players) and has posted his par for the course beautiful sound clip. Engaging levers and pedal prior to picking the note(s), he has derived the best of both worlds.
Lone Star Pedal Steel Co. has a non pedal S8 with a few cable pedals.
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Gerald Menke
Member From: Brooklyn, NY, USA
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posted 13 December 2005 09:10 AM
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I am having a butterscotch 10 string SS made for me as we speak, the factors that have drawn me to the non-pedal world are how pure the instruments sound and how much improvement I notice in my PSG playing if I try to play some of the songs I usually do on PSG on a non-pedal steel. I have also been playing a lot of reso for bands and in the studio lately and having a blast.One thing I still don't understand is why my Supro lap steel sounds so much "bigger" than any of the the PSGs I have played. Once I played an old Bakelite Rick through a Deluxe and could not BELIEVE how giant the thing sounded. I played my PSG immediately afterwards through the same amp and it sounded teeny by comparison. So for me the gorgeous pure tone of a non-pedal and the fun of slanting and doing lots of hammer-ons and pulloffs have done got me in a non-pedal tractor beam. |
HowardR
Member From: N.Y.C.,N.Y.
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posted 13 December 2005 09:40 AM
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One factor may be (and my experience is limited on PSG) the string spacing. I know that with six & 8 string lap steels, I can dig in more for tone and attack. On the narrower PSG spacing, I'm "skimming" more. I've not played enough to get used to standard PSG spacing so I may be atypical of the experience here. |
Mark Eaton
Member From: Windsor, Sonoma County, CA
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posted 13 December 2005 10:01 AM
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Gerald-I think you are on to something there. I play my Supro and I can't believe the "fatness" of the tone on this thing I got as a 10 year old lap steel student in the 60's-I used to be under the impression as a kid that it was strictly a student model and all that my parents could afford. The owner of the music studio where I took lessons had a gorgeous Gibson with a sunburst finish and she could play darn near as clean as Jerry Byrd, and I remember that being my first case of "guitar lust." Little did I know after picking up the instrument again after such a long layoff that Supros are held in high regard! Our local guitar builder and repairman did some work on the tone pot awhile back and he said he has always thought they were better sounding lap steels than the old Gibsons he has had come through his shop. At a regional steel jam here in April, the guy next to me, who is one of the best steelers in the area, was noting when one of the other fellas took a turn on his Bakelite-despite the presence of some killer pedal guitars at the jam-that "the Bakelite might be the best sounding guitar in the room!" There is something about the tone of a good lap/non-pedal guitar that is unique, just sort of gets you in the gut. That's why I'm waiting to get through the holidays and receive the thumbs up from the wife to place the SuperSlide order! Watching and listening to Bobby Black play his 12 string SS last month out here with the western swing band Lost Weekend was a special treat. What a great player!!! ------------------
Mark
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Ray Montee
Member From: Portland, OR, USA
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posted 13 December 2005 01:40 PM
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A most interesting post; one worthy of everyone's interest and response.
When us olde timers started to take steel guitar lessons, we knew from NOTHING! No knowledge about pedals; string variable spacing at the bridge vs. the nut; height of strings above the fret board; fret board graphics or color choices; low impedance vs. high impedence pickups; plastic vs. metal finger picks; bullet bars or flat bars; wrist angle to bidge or strings; ARM RESTS; muting; volume swells; bar tremelo; tableture; circle of 3rd, 4th or 5ths, or whatever; what strings went with what other strings; whether to play one note or two or three; GRIPS or multiple strings; etc., etc.
Today as evidenced in much of the Forum contributions of the day or week, we seem to have more mechanics; pyscologists; ergonomic specialists, Guitar designers, builders, electricians and fella's interested in how to become a successful steel player without investing the time or effort in learning WHAT the steel guitar is; or, how to understand the darn thing or HOW TO PLAY IT!
Playing the steel guitar, as I have argued before, that is, to play it correctly, takes many, many more years; than let's say, a Tamborine or Tri-Angle or Cymbal. Perhaps some of you, because of your musically destructive, deeply ingrained attitude, are in the wrong study hall when it comes to learning to play the steel guitar.
Steel Guitar playing is an ART FORM. One MUST START with BASICS; They MUST MASTER those basics first before moving on to anything else. Without out it, you're like a ship without an rudder. NO MATTER HOW LONG it takes you've got to understand and learn the basics.
WHY not learn what it is; how to play it; what you one day hope to sound like; the variable avenues for achieving that goal; get you ONE INSTRUCTOR and stick with he/she until you have reached a level a basic compentance (like a couple of years or more);
BEFORE YOU START DESIGNING A NEW STEEL GUITAR OR TUNING THAT YOU HOPE TO FOIST UPON THE MUSIC WORLD.
Learn to play the steel guitar correctly and you can play ANY STYLE of music you enjoy hearing on either a lap steel or pedal steel. Makes no difference. THINK ABOUT IT.
A Steel Guitar is a steel guitar!!! Want to learn how to play it, go to step one; then step two........... |
Matt Rhodes
Member From: Houston, Texas, USA
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posted 13 December 2005 02:14 PM
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What I'm in awe of over you non-pedal converts is that you actually have enough practice/woodshed time to "reinvent the wheel", learn the new logic, and get good at your new instruments without losing ground on the old one. The fact that it's taken me many years to become halfway proficient on just one tuning (PSG - C6) is hard enough, but how do you take on a completely different beast without your other guitar(s) getting jealous?My PSG doesn't know about my Remington D10 nonpedal, and I hope to keep it that way! I'll occasionally have a once-a-year fling with the NP, but the PSG can tell that there's something different about my "touch" when I've strayed for too long. She doesn't like it. I think Jeff Newman once remarked that playing two tunings (necks?) was like being married to two women at once: neither would be happy. My hat's off to you guys. I don't think I could ever serve two masters without paying for it. Matt [This message was edited by Matt Rhodes on 13 December 2005 at 02:19 PM.] |
Bob Hickish
Member From: Port Ludlow, Washington, USA
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posted 13 December 2005 02:57 PM
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Ray & Matt Both have good points !
Back in the early 70's when I took up
Pedals , I got into a fix that I thought
I would never recover from , and that
was ! Playing ped's I'd always forget
and go into a non ped. mode ! and playing
non ped . I was looking for ped's ! needless
to say , I was really messed up . so I put
the old string master away and lived in
the wood shed ! I finally mastered a
mediocre ability and continued with the band !
In resent years I took up steel again and
just love the old String Master ! The ped's
are still set up in the music room ! tempting me
every day . I think I will stay non/ped for there
are 3 top class pedal players in this are and I could
never hope to out do them , and I have a boss
that loves the old stile Steel ! and it don't get
better than that .
We'll be at the Eagles this Saterday ! come on
over Ray !Hick |
Don Kona Woods
Member From: Vancouver, Washington, USA
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posted 14 December 2005 12:45 AM
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Howard,This phenomenon is happening because pedal steel guitar players are coming into a special age of enlightenment. Aloha,
Don |
Ron Brennan
Member From: Edison, New Jersey, USA
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posted 14 December 2005 05:20 AM
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Don,Yes, you’re right on point, the steel guitar age of enlightenment or renaissance. We clearly are learning more about each other (non-pedal VS. pedal). This is a wonderful thing, SGF. TX
Rgds, Ron
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