|
Author
|
Topic: Is P-tah Dead?
|
Jeff Au Hoy
Member From: Honolulu, Hawai'i
|
posted 21 January 2006 04:30 PM
profile send email edit
I've heard a lot of steel recordings from the past decade and what I notice to be lacking is the seamless transition from string to string... a subtle rocking into the next note. I hear lots of interesting melodic lines and fat chords, but none of that old school stuff that approximated the yodel of a Hawaiian singer. I believe Jerry Byrd referred to this as "p-tah" (or so I understand from Art Ruymar). I think this is one of the fundamental aspects of Hawaiian steel playing and yet I don't hear it in contemporary recordings. To my ears it seems most steel players nowadays approach the instrument with a "one-finger guitar" mentality. |
Jeff Strouse
Member From: Jacksonville, Florida, USA
|
posted 21 January 2006 05:03 PM
profile send email edit
I totally agree. The P-tah sound, as Jerry described it, is an integral part of learning steel guitar. A good muting techinque is essential. It's difficult to master when one has developed a bad habit. Jerry told me once during a critique of my playing, to quit playing guitar and play steel. The smoothness of the P-tah gives the steel such a beautiful, signature sound when moving from note to note. If the contemporary players aren't using it, it's probably because no one was able to teach them the technique, with the lack of good steel guitar instruction in the islands. I'm only throwing that as a hypothesis...I don't know if that's the real reason or not. |
Rick Aiello
Member From: Berryville, VA USA
|
posted 21 January 2006 05:06 PM
profile send email edit
How 'bout a little example ...  The tour de force of P-Tah ... Jerry Byrd's ... Hula Lady  ------------------
[This message was edited by Rick Aiello on 21 January 2006 at 05:07 PM.]
|
Don Kona Woods
Member From: Vancouver, Washington, USA
|
posted 21 January 2006 05:46 PM
profile send email edit
quote:
.....this is one of the fundamental aspects of Hawaiian steel playing..
I totally with double emphasis agree. Shall we now start on a crusade for it's revival? Aloha,
Don |
Jeff Au Hoy
Member From: Honolulu, Hawai'i
|
posted 21 January 2006 05:48 PM
profile send email edit
Rick, YES! That's the note-to-note sound missing today.[This message was edited by Jeff Au Hoy on 21 January 2006 at 05:48 PM.] |
J D Sauser
Member From: E-03700-DENIA (Costa Blanca), Spain
|
posted 22 January 2006 03:58 AM
profile send email edit
I have studied a bit of Jerry Byrdīs P-Tah technique... I found that I could achieve a similar seamless flow of single notes using pick blocking. I know that some associate pick noise with that technique, but I somehow donīt get that noise. Still, his P-Tah blocking using lefthand fingers is in my opinion a very desirable technique to master. So yes, letīs go back to the study room and practice... it should not get lost.... J-D. |
Rick Aiello
Member From: Berryville, VA USA
|
posted 22 January 2006 05:51 AM
profile send email edit
Hula Lady is on my "set list" ... as played above ... of course nothing close to what you just heard ... duh ...  And even though I have a fascination with "alternative" bars ... (wait till some of you get a load of my "completely thumbless style" ... on an altered Sheerhorn bar) I have to go to a bullet bar for this one ... On adjacent strings ... it's the "weaving" between them with the bullet tip ... On strings one or more apart ... It's the "bringing up" of the note just picked on a lower string ... Then a tilting of the bar ... at the exact instant that the higher note is picked ... slightly under its pitch ... This slide up from the low ... the inconceivable "break" ... and the slide into the next higher note ... That is what gives the illusion that you just traveled on one string ... the whole way. Visa versa ... sorta ... coming down ... 'Cept you pull the bar off the higher string the instant the lower one is picked ... instead of tilting ... It's not the lack of "silence" between two picked notes ... Its the "illusion" that everything is done on one string ... As Ray Montee will ultimately say ... its a left hand thang !!!
------------------
[This message was edited by Rick Aiello on 22 January 2006 at 06:11 AM.]
|
HowardR
Member From: N.Y.C.,N.Y.
|
posted 22 January 2006 06:49 AM
profile send email edit
quote:
Shall we now start on a crusade for it's revival?
Don, that 's putting the cart before the horse. First, there would have to be a crusade for the revival of the Hawaiian Steel Guitar.
Once people are enlightened to the instrument AND Hawaiian music, then we can work on P-tah. |
Andy Volk
Member From: Boston, MA
|
posted 22 January 2006 07:15 AM
profile send email edit
Hey Rick - great explanation! That's the Hawaiian left hand blocking techinque AKA P'Tah in a nut shell. Combine what Rick described with a natural vibrato and good intonation and you're on your way to wasting away in McIntireville. |
Drew Howard
Member From: Mason, MI, U.S.A.
|
posted 22 January 2006 03:49 PM
profile send email edit
Rick,Wow, thanks for the Jerry Byrd clip! Drew ------------------
Drew Howard - website - Fessenden guitars, 70's Fender Twin, etc.
[This message was edited by Drew Howard on 22 January 2006 at 03:49 PM.]
|
Don Kona Woods
Member From: Vancouver, Washington, USA
|
posted 22 January 2006 03:57 PM
profile send email edit
Howard, I think you have a point!!!  How about among steel guitarists.  Aloha,
Don |
Gerald Ross
Member From: Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
|
posted 22 January 2006 04:10 PM
profile send email edit
Regarding Ptah,I've read the Jerry Byrd instructional book. I've seen his instructional video. I feel JB did a poor job describing and demoing this technique. Can someone do a better job? Maybe record the same lick with and without Ptah, tab it out and provide some text? Thanks. |
Jack Byrd
Member From: Kalamazoo, Michigan
|
posted 22 January 2006 06:00 PM
profile send email edit
I don't know if this will help but this is Jerry's description as it appeared in Lorene Ruymer's book.The 'p'tah' Sound.
To keep continuity of sound when changing from one string to another, I like to achieve what I think of as a thread woven in and out of a tapestry, keeping the sound unbroken. I call it the p'tah sound. To move from one string to an adjacent string, let's say for example from the second string on the 5th fret to the first string on the 7th fret, pluck the note at the fifth fret and begin moving your bar up the string toward the seventh fret. Keeping the bar raised so that only the rounded tip is in contact with the strings, about half way along the movement (near the 6th fret), move the bar tip over to the first string. Pluck it and continue the glide up to the target, the 7th fret. You will have plucked the second note a little early, but your p'tah will sound like an unbroken thread of music. The technique is a bit different, though, when moving between strings that are not adjacent. For example, try moving between the same two frets (the 5th and 7th) but coming from the fourth string to the first string. When the two strings were adjacent you used the tip of the bar. When they are not adjacent you begin by placing the bar flat across the strings. You pluck the first note, on the fourth string, move the bar forward and raise it so that by the time you reach the sixth fret you have only the tip on the first string. Pluck at the sixth fret and continue the glide to the target, the 7th fret. For a fluid sound, where possible it's best to keep playing on the same strings by moving the bar up and down the frets, rather than to favor one or two frets and jump from string to string. This is true except where you feel the 'p'tah' effect is desirable.
|
Gerald Ross
Member From: Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
|
posted 22 January 2006 06:05 PM
profile send email edit
Thanks for the reprint Jack.But even JB himself said that the steel guitar is a visual instrument. So basically we are talking about an auditory exercise that needs to be visualized to fully explain it. Someone needs to do a close up video of a few licks in the Ptah mode. Come on somebody! Everyone has a digital video camera now. If you film it I will post it on the web.
------------------
Gerald Ross
'Northwest Ann Arbor, Michigan's King Of The Hawaiian Steel Guitar' 
CEO, CIO, CFO - UkeTone Records
Gerald's Fingerstyle Guitar Website
Board of Directors Hawaiian Steel Guitar Association |
Rick Aiello
Member From: Berryville, VA USA
|
posted 22 January 2006 06:42 PM
profile send email edit
Gerald here's the opening section ... C6/A7 tuning ...
(lo to hi) C# E G A C E
I tried to imply timing ... I'm not very good at tab.
Those triplets in the G7 measures ... and that monster string of triplets in that C measure ... Well ... when you can get it to sound like JBs recording ... you have it ... If you are anything like me ... maybe 15+ yrs ... I don't believe video is gonna do it ... there's lots of JB video "floatin' around" ... ... Check out HSGA performances by Jeff AH and Mike Scott ... Mr. Weaver got close enough to see hands ... P-Tahs up the ying-yang ... But it's all happenin' so fast and subtly ... you just can't see it ... in my opinion anyway . Thats why when JB tried to show it ... slowed down in his video ... it didn't come off that well ...
------------------
[This message was edited by Rick Aiello on 22 January 2006 at 07:03 PM.]
|
Bill Creller
Member From: Saginaw, Michigan, USA
|
posted 22 January 2006 08:19 PM
profile send email edit
That sound is the first thing I noticed about Jeff Au Hoy's playing, and made me very jealous!! It's certainly the OLD sound and we shouldn't lose it. |
Todd Weger
Member From: Safety Harbor, FLAUSA
|
posted 23 January 2006 06:10 AM
profile send email edit
quote:
How 'bout a little example ...
The tour de force of P-Tah ... Jerry Byrd's ...
Hula Lady
Rick, is this clip supposed to be just the first measure? That's all I'm getting when I try to play it, and I usually never have any trouble when you post tunes.  Thanks! |
Rick Aiello
Member From: Berryville, VA USA
|
posted 23 January 2006 07:29 AM
profile send email edit
No ... its the whole song.I re-downloaded to test it ... came through fine ... ... ------------------
|
Stephan Miller
Member From: Silver Spring, Maryland, USA
|
posted 23 January 2006 10:54 AM
profile send email edit
Rick-- the clip is all there now, but for a while last night all you could get was 4-5 notes...also the "Ellie link" on another thread was completely silent. Both working fine now and I've been enjoying both. |
Rick Aiello
Member From: Berryville, VA USA
|
posted 23 January 2006 11:16 AM
profile send email edit
Readyhosting ... my website host-er ... is "migrating" ...I have no idea what that actually means ... I've been getting some emails about it sayin' I don't need to do anything ... But apparently ... its caused some downloading issues ... In the immortal words of Maxwell Smart: quote:
Sorry about that ... Chief
------------------
|
Roy Thomson
Member From: Wolfville, Nova Scotia,Canada
|
posted 23 January 2006 11:57 AM
profile edit
A few years ago I wrote a little Hawaiian Jingle called Island Swing which used to be
on my old Web Page.
Are the single notes in this P-Tah?
This is the first time I have heard the
expression. http://freefilehosting.net/?id=q9vym6rd |
Jeff Au Hoy
Member From: Honolulu, Hawai'i
|
posted 23 January 2006 05:35 PM
profile send email edit
Sorry Roy, I don't think so. At least that's not what I was referring to. |
Jeff Strouse
Member From: Jacksonville, Florida, USA
|
posted 23 January 2006 05:55 PM
profile send email edit
Great tune, Roy...I remember that song. Very catchy and nicely played on the single note licks! |
Rick Aiello
Member From: Berryville, VA USA
|
posted 23 January 2006 06:18 PM
profile send email edit
They say a picture is worth a thousand words ... And this may take a thousand words to explain but these show ALOT ... And if you can get by the "tech" aspect ... maybe a few things can be seen (pun intended). In a sonogram ... The Y-axis is frequency (pitch) in hertz ... The X -axis is time in seconds .... Intensity (basically: think loudness) shows up as colors ... In these two ... Orange is the most intense ... seen at the attacks of hard driven notes ... Green is the very intense ... a picked note can show as bright green ... Here is the un-accompanied first measure of Hula Lady ...  Look at the perfect alignment of adjacent notes ... no "dead space" in between them ... Then the "quintesential" P-tah move.... ----------------7-------
------2------------------ Bringin' that low note up ... then the inconcievable break ... barely seen on sonogram .... then the slide up to the higher note. You can search thru every record ever recorded ... and be hard pressed to find a better example than what you are seein' right there.
Here's the best section I could find in Roy's clip ... a fantastic player !!!!!! ...
 Alittle more "dead space" between adjacent notes ... but thats not the entire "essense" of P-tah ... "P-tah" is charachterised by a "connection" between the note you just picked .. and the one picked just prior to it" ... even if that connection is an auditory illusion created by the player. Even if its just a slur upon leaving one note ... and then slurrin' into the next. You can see those slurs on JB's first portion of that section. Take a real good look at those last two notes in JB's sonogram ... That's P-Tah !!!! PS Nice vibrato on that held note Roy !!!!  ------------------
[This message was edited by Rick Aiello on 24 January 2006 at 09:20 AM.] |
Roy Thomson
Member From: Wolfville, Nova Scotia,Canada
|
posted 23 January 2006 06:24 PM
profile edit
I just listened to Jerry's Hula Lady/Maili Swing Medley (5:45) and I think I get the idea now Jeff.
I was WAY off the mark and probably always will be.
Good Thread! |
Gerald Ross
Member From: Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
|
posted 23 January 2006 07:32 PM
profile send email edit
Thanks Rick,I look forward to visiting your house during the First Annual Shenandoah Valley Hawaiian Steel Guitar Festival. A couple of blast furnaces, a sonogram, a steel guitar museum, an electro-magnet generator and four kids under the age of 6. Sounds pretty typical to me. ------------------
Gerald Ross
'Northwest Ann Arbor, Michigan's King Of The Hawaiian Steel Guitar'
CEO, CIO, CFO - UkeTone Records
Gerald's Fingerstyle Guitar Website
Board of Directors Hawaiian Steel Guitar Association [This message was edited by Gerald Ross on 23 January 2006 at 07:44 PM.]
|
Jack Knight
Member From: kailua kona, Hawaii
|
posted 24 January 2006 08:03 AM
profile send email edit
I just took a steel workshop from Henry Allen and he did't know what P-tah was.Jack |
Jeff Au Hoy
Member From: Honolulu, Hawai'i
|
posted 24 January 2006 08:29 AM
profile send email edit
Makes sense, I don't hear it in Henry's playing. |
HowardR
Member From: N.Y.C.,N.Y.
|
posted 24 January 2006 08:36 AM
profile send email edit
I've heard of a similar technique used in Carribbean steel drums. It's called.....P-tah Pan...... |
Andy Volk
Member From: Boston, MA
|
posted 24 January 2006 08:44 AM
profile send email edit
Mine sounds more like p'tooie. |
Gerald Ross
Member From: Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
|
posted 24 January 2006 08:53 AM
profile send email edit
I've heard it in Greek music. But there it's called P'tah Bread.------------------
Gerald Ross
'Northwest Ann Arbor, Michigan's King Of The Hawaiian Steel Guitar'
CEO, CIO, CFO - UkeTone Records
Gerald's Fingerstyle Guitar Website
Board of Directors Hawaiian Steel Guitar Association |
Don Kona Woods
Member From: Vancouver, Washington, USA
|
posted 24 January 2006 09:03 AM
profile send email edit
In real life terms, it is when you spit.Just thought I would get in on the act. So you guys started it, I didn't. Aloha,
Don |
Bill Creller
Member From: Saginaw, Michigan, USA
|
posted 24 January 2006 02:29 PM
profile send email edit
If I remember correctly, David Keili (spell?) played the style of using the referrenced p-tah. Is that right Jeff?? |
Chris Morrison
Member From: Massachusetts, USA
|
posted 25 January 2006 06:48 PM
profile send email edit
Hula Lady: great example and great descriptions from all, notably the sonogram! (now this dobro player knows what p'tah is!) I downloaded the tune and played it back at half speed, orig pitch (using a Tascam GT1MkII Guitar trainer, having burned the tune to a CD) -- you can hear the *very* quick slides between notes, and definitely hear the switch from one string to the other during the slide JB described in the Ruymar excerpt. BTW, bluegrass dobro involves a lot of "left hand thang", much selective muting with trailing fingers. It's a different bar as you know, and gets somewhat different handling. (As an intermediate player) i thought the muting descriptions in bg dobro videos "read" differently from the couple of lap steel videos I've seen so far. (dobro vid/dvds: Rob Ickes', Stacy Phillips'; lap steel: Cindy Cashdollar Western Swing). Finally, the Tascam machine is terrific -- so easy to use that I use it a lot (vs fiddling w/ software like Amazing Slowdowner on a computer) ...Chris |
Bill Leff
Member From: Santa Cruz, CA, USA
|
posted 25 January 2006 08:37 PM
profile send email edit
I hear some volume swells in JBs Hula Lady as well, so in addition to the ptah I believe the volume pedal is enhancing those transitions. |
Bill Creller
Member From: Saginaw, Michigan, USA
|
posted 25 January 2006 09:23 PM
profile send email edit
The P-TAH sound will be around as long as Jeff plays. The emulation of the Hawaiian voice going into falsetto is what I thought it was all about. |
Patrick Newbery
Member From: San Francisco, California, USA
|
posted 26 January 2006 08:34 AM
profile send email edit
We need a "Got P'tah?" T-shirt!Is the "hula note" B Brozman refers to an early form of p'tah? |
Craig Stenseth
Member From: Naperville, Illinois, USA
|
posted 29 January 2006 07:09 AM
profile send email edit
P'tah = portamento ? |
Rick Aiello
Member From: Berryville, VA USA
|
posted 31 January 2006 05:25 AM
profile send email edit
quote:
P'tah = portamento ?
Because of the "missed" frequencies when the "change over" is made ... string to string ... Its more like ... P'tah = A player directed maneuver that simulates the "portamento" effect, when two consectutive notes are played on different strings. ------------------
|
The Steel Guitar Forum
