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Author
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Topic: Was Joseph Kekuku a time traveller?
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basilh
Member From: United Kingdom
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posted 21 April 2006 03:13 AM
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Because the generally accepted story goes :-
quote:
In 1885, in Honolulu, Joseph Kekuku, an 11-year-old student at Kamehameha School for Boys began experimenting (as young boys will) with ways to make different musical sounds on his guitar. The story goes that while walking along the railroad tracks, he picked up a bolt and slid it across the strings, effecting the very first characteristic slur of steel guitar...
Fair enough, but then whilst my wife was researching an article for our magazine 'Aloha Dream', I spotted this :-
quote:
While Dillingham's dream of large-scale human settlement on the ‘Ewa Plain would have to wait until the last decades of the twentieth century, his plan for a railroad that served the area came together fairly quickly. After leasing Campbell's ‘Ewa and Kahuku land in order to start two sugar plantations Dillingham obtained a government charter for a railroad. It was granted by King David Kalakaua on September 11, 1888,
And I can't seem to find any information about construction starting before 1888 !! ------------------
quote:
Steel players do it without fretting
  [This message was edited by basilh on 21 April 2006 at 03:44 AM.]
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c c johnson
Member From: killeen,tx usa
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posted 21 April 2006 04:11 AM
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Baz, when I am in HI I always look up steel players in places where very few people get to; the pine field, east Molokai,southern tip of the big island, etc; Today these fellows that are still living are in mid 80s and 90s. The ones who have passed on I talked with as a kid just before Pearl Harbor. I don't remember any of them buying the bolt story. They do say that they heard he dropped his guitar on a railroad track and the steel slid against the strings to make the sound all of us love. So I guess you takes your pick and thank goodness whatever happened did! CC |
basilh
Member From: United Kingdom
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posted 21 April 2006 05:20 AM
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C.C, no doubt it DID happen, it's just the chronology that I'm querying.In the world of Pedal steel, the chronological development has been accurately documented by people like Carl Dixon, and the development of the E9th tuning etc. and members Like Buddy Emmons can put to rest any of the myths that came about regarding the 'Chromatic' Strings and their placement, BUT, in the world of Hawaiian Guitar there are a LOT of ambiguities, and unfortunately Joseph, Sol and the rest of the early masters are no longer here for their voices to be heard, so speculation has led to some rather strange urban myths, like for example the cowboys who came to Hawaii at the request of the King to teach the Hawaiians how to handle the wild cattle, There were only THREE and they probably DIDN'T play guitar to any great level of proficiency. So the whole 'Slack Key' origins theory is a kind of 'Dead Duck'.
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Gerald Ross
Member From: Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
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posted 21 April 2006 05:34 AM
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Joseph Kekuku was the first person in human history to ever slide a metal or glass object along a string?Give me a break.  ------------------
Gerald Ross
'Northwest Ann Arbor, Michigan's King Of The Hawaiian Steel Guitar' 
CEO, CIO, CFO - UkeTone Records
Gerald's Fingerstyle Guitar Website
Board of Directors Hawaiian Steel Guitar Association |
HowardR
Member From: N.Y.C.,N.Y.
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posted 21 April 2006 05:35 AM
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I heard that Joseph Kekuku was sitting, guitar in lap and combing his hair. He dropped his comb on the guitar and heard that sound.To me, that seems more convincing than just picking up a bolt on thr railroad tracks, or the rumor that Gerald Ross came to him in a dream .....  |
Gerald Ross
Member From: Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
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posted 21 April 2006 06:01 AM
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Here's my theory:Musicians have been "borrowing" ideas and techniques from each other since the beginning of time. Hawaii is situated smack-dab in the middle of the Pacific Ocean. Ocean voyagers had to stop in Hawaii to replenish their food, water and fuel. There is a traditonal Indian stringed instrument that is played by sliding an egg shaped piece of glass along strings. Did a young Joseph Kekuku see a traveling Indian musician?
And Howard... Joseph Kekuku came to me once in a dream. It wasn't a pretty sight.
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Gerald Ross
'Northwest Ann Arbor, Michigan's King Of The Hawaiian Steel Guitar'
CEO, CIO, CFO - UkeTone Records
Gerald's Fingerstyle Guitar Website
Board of Directors Hawaiian Steel Guitar Association [This message was edited by Gerald Ross on 21 April 2006 at 06:04 AM.]
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Rick Aiello
Member From: Berryville, VA USA
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posted 21 April 2006 06:19 AM
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I saw a Bonanza episode once ... Where a travelin' ranch-hand pulled out a parlor guitar & a "jack knife" ... and played a song for Adam. Since the "Adam era" was the early 1860's ... That puts the invention of the steel guitar a good 25 yrs before Kekuku ... clearly makin' it a "country/western" instrument first !!!  ------------------
Hawaiian Steel Stuff
The Casteels
[This message was edited by Rick Aiello on 21 April 2006 at 06:37 AM.]
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Bob Stone
Member From: Gainesville, FL, USA
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posted 21 April 2006 06:29 AM
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Hi Baz,Interesting post. And a bit of a surprise that no one has questioned this aspect of the Kekuku story earlier. I recognize your first quoted source as "Hawaiian Music and Musicians," Kanahele editor, University press of Hawaii. What is the second source you are quoting from? Also, not being familiar with the 'Ewa Plain, is this the railroad that Kekuku would have been walking along? |
Bob Stone
Member From: Gainesville, FL, USA
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posted 21 April 2006 06:32 AM
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Old saying: A lie repeated often enough becomes the truth. |
John Soper
New Member From: North Carolina, USA
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posted 21 April 2006 06:38 AM
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Don't forget the long tradition among many African cultures for using various sticks, bones, etc to produce notes on non-fretted instruments, leading to the Diddly-Bow and the use of knives & other implements to fret guitars in the USA... probably too far removed, but:Any African-American sailors that enjoyed liberty in the islands  ? |
Kay Das
Member From: Singapore and Irvine CA
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posted 21 April 2006 07:20 AM
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"Discoveries" are seldom single events, but evolutionary and plural. Joseph Kekuku was certainly a visionary and an inventor and promoter of steel guitar and Hawaii would have been the most befitting place to earth where the unique flowing and liquid sound of steel on string, such as is the Hawaiian style, would have developed. But glissando on string was known to classical Indian and other genres long before. Although no other form gets as pretty as Hawaiian music, in my view.------------------
kay
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Chris Brooks
Member From: Providence, Rhode Island
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posted 21 April 2006 07:39 AM
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John Soper and Kay Das make good points. Culture is transmitted, ot just objects and inventions.Don't forget the Portuguese, who were great seamen and explorers, who had extensive contact with India (Goa, Diu, Diman)and the Pacific (Macao, Timor). . . and were known to have played guitar. A type of Indian veena played with a "slide", plus a Portuguese sailor who had been in India, now with a guitar in Hawaii . . . Makes more sense than the "guitar dropped on a railroad track" hypothesis. (A result of my current study of Portuguese langauge is an interest in this relatively small nation's oversized role in the history of discovery.) Chris
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Brad Bechtel
Moderator From: San Francisco, CA
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posted 21 April 2006 09:15 AM
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I'd highly suggest checking out Lorene Ruymar's book - at least a quarter of the book is devoted to this same subject.------------------
Brad's Page of Steel
A web site devoted to acoustic & electric lap steel guitars |
Andy Volk
Member From: Boston, MA
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posted 21 April 2006 09:45 AM
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The Kekuku crown as the originator of the lap guitar style is a subject that has brought factions of the steel community almost to blows. To, me it's a big yawn. Gerald, Bob, Kay ... you're all correct in my book. Some kid playing a Diddly Bow with a bottle in 1855 could equally get the credit. In my world view, musical cross pollination is as old as time and there are likely multiple origins for the style and it's all essentially untraceable. Kekuku certainly was very savvy in his marketing skills. |
Mike D
Member From: Phx, Az
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posted 21 April 2006 10:35 AM
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Blah, blah, inventor of the steel guitar...What's *really* amazing is that the Cartwright's all had 'Peacemaker' .45s in the 1860s. Now that's time travel! ------------------
Half-assed bottleneck and lap slide player. Full-assed Builder of resonator instruments.
[This message was edited by Mike D on 21 April 2006 at 10:37 AM.]
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Rick Aiello
Member From: Berryville, VA USA
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posted 21 April 2006 11:01 AM
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quote:
What's *really* amazing is that the Cartwright's all had 'Peacemaker' .45s in the 1860s. Now that's time travel!
"D" ... you're treadin' on some mitey thin ice thar, pardner 
Here in the West, we're livin' the best, Bonanza,
If anyone fights any one of us, he's got a fight with me
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Hawaiian Steel Stuff
The Casteels
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Bill Creller
Member From: Saginaw, Michigan, USA
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posted 21 April 2006 01:00 PM
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If I even remotely thought the steel was invented by some red-neck country player, I would quit today, and go work on my old boat.
I'm just joking of course. Does it really matter who stumbled on the idea? It seems to work, no matter whose idea it was, even though Gerald has night mares about it!!
Any way, my old wood boat needs work yet.
Oh yes, I thought the date was around 1898, since there was a celebration for the 100th aniversary,around that date, wasn't there?[This message was edited by Bill Creller on 21 April 2006 at 01:03 PM.] |
Derrick Mau
Member From: Honolulu, Hawaii, USA
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posted 21 April 2006 01:13 PM
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Hi Baz,
Here's some information by Robert C. Schmitt; a Hawaii state statistician. This is from his book called: FIRSTS IN HAWAII"The earliest railroad installation in Hawaii appears to have been a track a couple hundred feet in length built in Honolulu in 1857 to remove material dredged from the harbor". "The Oahu Rail and Land Company provided railroad service on Oahu from 1889 to 1947" There is also another book written within the past 3 years about the rail system. Can't remember the title or the author. Anyway, I don't buy the railroad track story about Kekuku. The falling comb sounds more credible, but it's diffult to say as things were never documented during that time. Even the famous "SHAKA" sign; lots of theories but no hard evidence. |
Gerald Ross
Member From: Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
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posted 21 April 2006 01:18 PM
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Metal comb? Wooden comb? Honeycomb?Couldn't have been plastic... Bakelite wasn't even invented then. ------------------
Gerald Ross
'Northwest Ann Arbor, Michigan's King Of The Hawaiian Steel Guitar'
CEO, CIO, CFO - UkeTone Records
Gerald's Fingerstyle Guitar Website
Board of Directors Hawaiian Steel Guitar Association [This message was edited by Gerald Ross on 21 April 2006 at 01:18 PM.]
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Derrick Mau
Member From: Honolulu, Hawaii, USA
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posted 21 April 2006 01:20 PM
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Baz,A pic from the same book of a railroad system in Kahului, Maui 1879  |
Gerald Ross
Member From: Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
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posted 21 April 2006 01:52 PM
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Thanks for the picture Derrick.But look what I found when I blew up the photo. I guess this solves it once and for all. The Kekuku railroad spike story is a sham. 
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Gerald Ross
'Northwest Ann Arbor, Michigan's King Of The Hawaiian Steel Guitar'
CEO, CIO, CFO - UkeTone Records
Gerald's Fingerstyle Guitar Website
Board of Directors Hawaiian Steel Guitar Association |
basilh
Member From: United Kingdom
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posted 21 April 2006 02:02 PM
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Derrick, thanks a million for the info, hard to come by over this side of the pond.I reckon Gerald has the best 'slant' on it so far, but I must admit I really was expecting HowardR to 'Steal' the plaudits on this one. Bob Stone asks quote:
What is the second source you are quoting from?
Well Bob it's http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oahu_Railway_and_Land_Company |
HowardR
Member From: N.Y.C.,N.Y.
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posted 21 April 2006 02:10 PM
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I guess I was on the wrong track..... |
basilh
Member From: United Kingdom
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posted 21 April 2006 02:31 PM
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With any mention of a "Bar' I would have expected some of the more libation inclined forumites to respond.
Where are you Archie Nicol ?[This message was edited by basilh on 21 April 2006 at 02:33 PM.] |
Derrick Mau
Member From: Honolulu, Hawaii, USA
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posted 21 April 2006 03:03 PM
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Looks like there is more of a market for railroad spikes than steel guitar bars.58 sellers for spikes on E-Bay. One seller especially creative making works of art out of them.   |
John Drury
Member From: Gallatin, Tn USA
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posted 21 April 2006 07:22 PM
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Mike D.,The whole Cartwright thing is creepy, ever notice how Hoss didn't look like the rest of the family? Maybe that is why you never saw a Mrs. C., she may have wound up on the wrong end of one of those Colts after Bennie boy found her in the bunkhouse with some cow "Poke" no pun intended. I don't even want to go into the Hop Sing thing! ------------------
John Drury
NTSGA #3
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Michael Johnstone
Member From: Sylmar,Ca. USA
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posted 21 April 2006 11:02 PM
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There were a lot of Japanese immigrants in Hawaii in the mid 1800s who no doubt brought with them the yamoto-goto(a 2000 year old slide instrument).Ya reckon young Joe was peekin thru the bushes checking out a Shinto ceremony? (down by the railroad tracks) |
basilh
Member From: United Kingdom
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posted 22 April 2006 01:27 AM
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And he wrote," I went down to the bushes, to watch the trains roll by" ....NEXT ?
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Peter
Member From: Cape Town, South Africa
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posted 22 April 2006 03:33 AM
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Yes Basil, Joseph was a time traveller.
Download this Mpeg Video file (6Mb) to see for yourself.
This should dispel any more rumours about time and location.------------------
Peter den Hartogh
1978 Emmons S10 P/P; 1977 Sho-Bud D10 ProIII Custom;
1975 Fender Artist S10; Remington U12; 1947 Gibson BR4; Coffeespoon
[This message was edited by Peter on 22 April 2006 at 12:27 PM.] |
Gerald Ross
Member From: Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
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posted 22 April 2006 05:02 AM
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Peter, That is very cool. The video is a bit blurry. At first I could not tell what the guitarist was doing. I thought the audio and video were from two different sources and just merged together. As the camera closed in I saw the spoon... Cool rhythm too. Lot's of complexity. Thanks. ------------------
Gerald Ross
'Northwest Ann Arbor, Michigan's King Of The Hawaiian Steel Guitar'
CEO, CIO, CFO - UkeTone Records
Gerald's Fingerstyle Guitar Website
Board of Directors Hawaiian Steel Guitar Association |
Harry Dietrich
Member From: Robesonia, Pennsylvania, USA
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posted 22 April 2006 06:31 AM
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Actually Katy was the first person to use a bar:Katy Bar The Door This expression meaning impending doom or disaster is most likely rooted in medieval history. On 20 February 1437, King James I of Scotland was assassinated while staying at the Dominican chapterhouse in Perth. The phrase is in commemoration of one of the queen's ladies-in-waiting who tried to save him. There is no definitive proof to link the modern phrase with the historical event, but the similarities in use of language are too striking to dismiss without discussion. The Katy in question is Catherine Douglas, popularly known as Kate Barlass. A band of murderers, led by nobleman Robert Graeme, had entered the chapterhouse in search of the king. The king's chamberlain, Robert Stuart, was in on the plot and had removed the locks and bolts securing the door of king's chamber. In an attempt to prevent the murderers from entering the room, Catherine used her arm in place of a bolt. The murderers broke the door, and her arm, and succeeded in killing the king. Her descendants to this day bear a broken arm on their family crest and keep the name Barlass. Howard....I beat you to it.  Harry [This message was edited by Harry Dietrich on 22 April 2006 at 06:37 AM.]
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John Bushouse
Member From:
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posted 22 April 2006 07:10 AM
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quote:
The whole Cartwright thing is creepy, ever notice how Hoss didn't look like the rest of the family?
Actually, all of the Cartwrights had different mothers - they were all half-brothers. Lorne Greene had horrible luck with women (I believe they all passed away). |
Rick Aiello
Member From: Berryville, VA USA
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posted 22 April 2006 08:03 AM
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Thanks John ... I didn't wanna have to draw my 6-shooter ... twice in the same thread. Who could forget the episode where "Pa" donned the wig ... and went back in time ... to recreate the meeting/marrage/death of Hoss' mom ... whose maiden name was Gregertsen  As far as the railroad and its bloody history... all I can say is ... Remember Rock Ridge ------------------
Hawaiian Steel Stuff
The Casteels
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Harry Dietrich
Member From: Robesonia, Pennsylvania, USA
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posted 22 April 2006 08:48 AM
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This thread has definitely deteriorated.Sorry Baz! Harry  |
Arthur Herrmann
Member From: New Jersey, USA
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posted 22 April 2006 09:06 AM
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We would not have engaged in this fascinating discussion if Joeseph Kekuku had not invented slide guitar and Al Gore had not invented the internet. |
John Bushouse
Member From:
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posted 22 April 2006 10:17 AM
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Rick - that was the same episode where they explained that "Hoss" was an affectionate (Swedish, I thought, not Norwegian) nickname meaning... what? I forgot, and it's been bugging me ever since. |
Rick Aiello
Member From: Berryville, VA USA
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posted 22 April 2006 10:42 AM
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According to TV Land ... quote:
Inger Borgstrom-Gregertsen was the mother of Ben’s second child Eric, aka “Hoss” (Dan Blocker). In a tale told in flashback, Inger delivered Hoss but was killed by Indians before she could raise her baby boy. As Eric once said, "Most people just call me Hoss." His nickname is derived from an old Swedish mountain expression which means "big, friendly man." The name was suggested by Eric’s uncle Gunnar.
My wife wanted to name our fourth "Hoss" ... I countered with "Moe Joe" ... and she dropped the whole subject ... Sorry for the topic drift ... but, I'm glad the whole thing is settled now ... thanks to Peter's "lost video". ------------------
Hawaiian Steel Stuff
The Casteels
[This message was edited by Rick Aiello on 22 April 2006 at 11:02 AM.]
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basilh
Member From: United Kingdom
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posted 22 April 2006 10:51 AM
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Has anyone tried to do what the guy in Peter's video is doing..
It's NOT easy..And I think that over here in the UK, it would be considered sacrilege to treat a tea-spoon that way. (at least before 4:30) |
Todd Weger
Member From: Safety Harbor, FLAUSA
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posted 22 April 2006 12:17 PM
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quote:
Did a young Joseph Kekuku see a traveling Indian musician?
Well, if he did, that musician must have been working on a cruise ship, because everybody knows musicians can't afford to travel anywhere (except to a gig). |
Peter
Member From: Cape Town, South Africa
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posted 22 April 2006 12:31 PM
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I have updated this Mpeg Video file (6MB) to make it more clear.Baz, it was a coffeespoon wrapped in insulation tape.
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