Any ideas or thougts?

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Steel players do it without fretting

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PS: Here's a link to my thread about building mine, maybe it helps a little bit?
http://www.steelguitarforum.com/Forum2/HTML/008383.html

[This message was edited by Roman Sonnleitner on 21 April 2006 at 03:18 PM.]

Thats a nice looking guitar. I like the idea of a bottom mount for the pick up. Here is a link to the Wallace pickups.
http://www.jerrywallacemusic.com/customers.htm

If you look down you will see a lap steel from Terry Farmer with the same pickup.

On your lapsteel what scale did you use?

How did you make the fretboard?

It sure does look nice in the picture. I am going to get some pictures up later today with my rough work so far.

M.

Your pickup is perfect for mounting directly to the wood (just like on the lap steel pictured on the linked site) - just measurehow far down the bottom edge would be fom the strings (with the polepieces about 2 to 5 mm from the strings, depending on how hot or clear you want the sound, add about 6 or 7 mm to that, and that's how deep the pickup cavity has to be (measured from string level, not from the top of the instrument); then cut some foam rubber (like from a computer mouse-pad) to the appropriate size (leave notches for the screws), and screw that pickup down using wood screws of appropriate length (should not go through back of body, of course , but there should be some leeway to lower or raise the pickup by a few millimeter).

PS: Forgot something: on mine I put a piece of aluminium, which is connected to the ground pole of the plug, underneath the foam rubber - those P90s are very noisy single-coils and need every bit of shielding they can get...

[This message was edited by Roman Sonnleitner on 22 April 2006 at 08:48 AM.]

As for 'regular' single-coil or humbucking pickups, no matter whether they are fixed to a pickguard (with screws and springs) or to the body (either damped by foam rubber, or floating, with springs on the screws), there's just almost no contact surface to transmit vibrations (just where the screwheads touch the baseplate of the pickup), so vibrations aren't really transmitted, and there's little to no influence on tone to be expected.

[This message was edited by Roman Sonnleitner on 22 April 2006 at 12:43 PM.]

Some folks believe a "magnetic pup" only "reads" the strings ... but anyone who has ever knocked on the side of their Ricky or Fender Trap equipped steel ... knows better.

Of course ... then the subject of "microphonics" comes up ... and wax potting is suggested to correct this "problem" ...

But there is alot more goin' on ... that the windings of a coil ... jigglin' around.

Jason Lollar winds some of the finest coils in the business ... but put a freshly wound, potted Lollar bobbin ... in a fully charged horseshoe magnet pickup ... and knock on the side ... w/o strings ... tap, tap, tap ...

What generates AC current in a coil of wire ... is the disturbance of a magnetic field associated with that coil as dictated by Faraday's Law.

Regardless of what causes that disturbance ...

Vibrating strings within the field ... movement of the coil in respect to the field ... moving the field in respect to the coil ... or a combination of any of the above

AC current will be produced in that coil.

I personally choose to have my pickups as much "a part" of the body as possible ...

Either by hard mounting them (non-adjustable) ... or by using hard rubber washers instead of springs.

I personally, want the body to play a role ... in the total sound.

But of course ... to each his own ...

PS: I try and position the center of the coil ... 1.5" from the bridge.

Even closer with the Lollars "String Thru" coil in the MRIs ... but thats another story.

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Hawaiian Steel Stuff
The Casteels

[This message was edited by Rick Aiello on 22 April 2006 at 01:57 PM.]

I can't "spill the beans" ... but somethin's comin' on the horizon ...

That will really make folk's ears "Perk Up".

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Hawaiian Steel Stuff
The Casteels

[This message was edited by Rick Aiello on 22 April 2006 at 02:09 PM.]

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but it seems that, no matter where I tap/bump it, the resulting sound from the amp is always the same frequency. Or at least very nearly the same.

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You'll get different frequencies produced ... if you thump it with different objects ...

I.E ... finger vs fingernail vs screwdriver tip vs etc. ...

My Bronzepan is probably the closest thing to the proverbial "railroad track" guitar ... that I know of.

Its mass is just so great ... that the body just can't be moved to any extent by the strings.

Almost zero "acoustic" properties.

Because of that lack of body involvement ... I just couldn't get a decent sound outta our MRI ... which, like a Fender Trap ... really is ultra-sensitive to "vibra-phonics".

I ended up having to use a much, much more powerful magnetic field and greater AC generating coil ... a 650 gauss horseshoe magnet w/ Lollar Ricky style bobbin ...

Simply because the body wasn't participating ...

Thats why I prefer my aluminum steels over the bronze ... the bodies participate more in generating the overall sound/tone.

They simply sound better ...

But the bronze is "safer" to play ... cause every little thing ... like my picks hittin' the body ... doesn't get heard.

Hence me playin' it at the recent "Summit" ...

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Hawaiian Steel Stuff
The Casteels

[This message was edited by Rick Aiello on 22 April 2006 at 02:42 PM.]

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I agree that the "acoustic properteis" have a definite effect, but isn't that an effect on the strings and their vibrations, rather than an effect on the pickup?

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I'll try my best to help explain this ...

When a string is struck ... energy is transferred from your finger to the string ... setting that string into motion.

This energy ... which is finite (a set amount) ... will be used up eventually (ultimately as heat produced associated with friction) ...

Some of the string's energy will be used to vibrate that body ... setting it into motion.

This vibrating body will then use energy ... to move the air that is in contact with it.

Since there is a "Conservation of Energy" involved here ... the loss of energy from the strings will ultimately return the string to its resting state.

Now here's where all the differences in construction come in ...

1) In my Bronzepan ... because of the sheer mass of the guitar ... very little energy is lost to the body by the strings ... they just can't move it much ... an "inertia thang"

Therefore the strings just keep vibrating ... until they dissipate their energy ... by moving the air in contact with them.

This scenario gives you the greatest sustain.

A magnetic pup of any type ... will be sensing the strings ... almost exclusively here ... since the body/coil/magnets are basically stationary.

2) In a lightweight solid guitar ... more energy will be transferred to the body ... producing greater movement ... producing greater volumes of air moved.

Since the energy is "used up faster" because of the vibrating components ... the sustain will be less ... ie. the strings will return to rest sooner.

However, the greater movement of the body ... will provide "more" acoustic characteristics (meaning more air is moved).

A pup mounted to this body will read the strings ... but since it itself is moving (attached to the body) ... the coil and magnets will be moving too.

Here's where it gets "tough" to describe without mathematics ...

The movement of the body can be described by a series of wave functions ... which are different than that of the wave functions describing the strings ... because of size, shape, material, etc ...

The pup ... being attached to this body at one particular location on that body ... is moving too ...

But not exactly "in concert"* with the body as a whole ... and certainly not in "concert" with the strings.

This cumulative movement ... of the strings in relationship to the pup ... creates a signal ... that is different than if the pup were just "floating" over the strings, not connected with the body at all (as in a lab experiment)...

In general ... the lighter the solid body ... the greater the displacement of that body ...

3) In hollow bodied guitars ... take everything mentioned above ... and exponentially increase this phenomenon.

A very loud ... very full ... very rich ... but very transient sound.

This is about the best I can do ... lots of calculus involved ... particularly in the descriptions of the body/pickup interface ... and its resulting relationship to reading the strings.

Basically the line seperating solid body electric guitars and hollow body acoustic guitars ... isn't as "clearly defined" as some folks think.

Of course ... then there are things like .... stiffness vs mass ... elasticity issues ... wave reinforcment ... and about a million other variables involved also ...

But this is about the best I can do ...

* In Concert ... exhibiting the same set of wave functions.

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Hawaiian Steel Stuff
The Casteels

[This message was edited by Rick Aiello on 23 April 2006 at 05:25 AM.]

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Steel players do it without fretting

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Here's where it gets "tough" to describe without mathematics ...

The movement of the body can be described by a series of wave functions ... which are different than that of the wave functions describing the strings ... because of size, shape, material, etc ...

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I remembered a site that will help to "visualize" what I was referrin' to here ... without the math ...

Modal Analysis of an Electric Guitar

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Hawaiian Steel Stuff
The Casteels

-) About body vibrations: you also have to add the resonance frequency - the frequency at which any solid material will vibrate if stimulated; the body will not only take over the vibration frequency from the strings, but also, provided there's enough transmission of energy, start vibrating itself at a certain frequency - the resonance frequency (sorry if my terms are not always 100% correct - I'm not a native speaker of English...); this resonance frequency is diferrent for different materials, that's why even with solid body guitars the choice of wood type does influence the tone of the instrument.

-) about your second point: (influence of vibration on pick-up) - that's what I was trying to say: a pickup that has a solid contact with the body will be influenced by body vibrations; but wouldn't you agree that a pickup that is mounted to a pickguard (which is usually made of rather non-resonating, flexible plastic), or to the body, with foam rubber (which will damp pretty much any kind of vibration in the pickup), or with two tiny screws that only contact the pickup at two tiny edges/holes, and with springs that will also have a damping aspect on any vibrations, will pretty much be free from being influenced directly by body vibrations?

[This message was edited by Roman Sonnleitner on 23 April 2006 at 08:20 AM.]

Tastes differ, preferences differ, tones differ - that's why pickups are found on all different kinds of distances on various guitar models (and why some guitars have two or three pickups) - allegedly, the little difference between the distance of a Tele neck pickup and a Strat neck pickup is the most important factor when it comes to the rather different tones of those two guitars played in the neck position - but is one of them 'better'?

Also, don't forget - lap steels have scales from 21 to 26 inches - if you always mount the pickup at 1 1/2", regardless of scale, the pickup will be ata different position with regards to the position of overtones on the string!

quote:

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About body vibrations: you also have to add the resonance frequency - the frequency at which any solid material will vibrate if stimulated; the body will not only take over the vibration frequency from the strings, but also, provided there's enough transmission of energy, start vibrating itself at a certain frequency - the resonance frequency ...

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Thats why I included ... "wave reinforcement" here ...

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Of course ... then there are things like .... stiffness vs mass ... elasticity issues ... wave reinforcment ... and about a million other variables involved also ...

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A look around that site I pointed to above ... will not only help explain this phenomenon ... but also give the exact frequencies that the different body styles/materials resonate at.

He also does many other cool experiments ... click on his homepage.

quote:

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but wouldn't you agree that a pickup that is mounted to a pickguard (which is usually made of rather non-resonating, flexible plastic), or to the body, with foam rubber (which will damp pretty much any kind of vibration in the pickup), or with two tiny screws that only contact the pickup at two tiny edges/holes, and with springs that will also have a damping aspect on any vibrations, will pretty much be free from being influenced directly by body vibrations?

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Pretty much ... yes ... that is why I said I prefer to hard mount my pickups.

The ultimate in "hard mounting" is the Fender Trap pickup. Not only is it screwed down tight into the body ... the "lower lip" of the unit's housing ... is the bridge itself ...

As far as hard mount "adjustable height" pups ... the Supro style ... with its adjustable pole pieces ... will accomodate any need for fine tuning.

But as I said in my first post ... I want the bodies influence/participation ... as much as possible ...

To each his own ...

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Hawaiian Steel Stuff
The Casteels

quote:

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Also, don't forget - lap steels have scales from 21 to 26 inches - if you always mount the pickup at 1 1/2", regardless of scale, the pickup will be ata different position with regards to the position of overtones on the string!

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In my opinion, this isn't an issue ...

Nodal points (place where the vibrating string remains at rest ... zero displacement) are too small ... compared to the magnetic field size that is being disturbed ... to be concerned with their exact placement (which varies with every movement of the bar).

I mount 1.5" on my 22.25", 22.5" and 25.5" scales ... as did Rickenbacher on there A22 vs the A25 frypans.

Again, to each his own ...

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Hawaiian Steel Stuff
The Casteels

[This message was edited by Rick Aiello on 23 April 2006 at 09:37 AM.]

does a Rickenbacker sound better than a Stringmaster (to use the most popular 'foe' as example)?
Yes? No? Should we let this be decided by a vote?

Is the Stringmaster pickup mounted 1 1/2" from the bridge?

Oooops, we can't tell, since it has two coils, which can be blended together (kinda like shifting the 'virtual' central polepiece between the two back and forth)... Hmmm, must be something wrong with the Stringmaster sound, it would be best if everybody ships theirs to me for disposal...

[This message was edited by Roman Sonnleitner on 23 April 2006 at 10:00 AM.]

If this is true to a great degree, what would you say is the best (practical) material for the body of the guitar?

If one chooses to use wood, can it be predetermined (for best tonal properties) the type and specific gravity of the wood?

Mr. Clean
(cleaner than ever, as a matter of fact )

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I've ALWAYS found that the 1½” distance sounds best (IMHO)

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well, no disrespect, but let me add - sounds best TO YOU!

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You can experiment all you like to try and create a "NEW' sound, but the 'DEFINITIVE' sound has already been created and established.

[This message was edited by basilh on 23 April 2006 at 10:56 AM.]

FYI, my 1938 7 string National New Yorker has 3 pickups. 2 of them are hidden under the fretboard and are quite far from the bridge pickup.

My point is, that different people play different kinds of music, and different kinds of music require different sounds - and there is no 'BEST', it always depends on what sound you want/need, and that will determine what type of instrument to choose, what type of body wood to choose, what type of pickup to chose, and where to place that pickup (that's why I recommended trusting your ears by testing what position will give you 'your' tone).
A mahogany-bodied Gibson will sound different than a maple-bodied Fender, and that will sound different than an aluminium-bodied Rickenbacker; a P90-equipped guitar will sound different than one with a horseshoe or a Fender single-coil - and NEITHER IS BETTER THAN THE OTHER. Each one might be better suited for a specific type of music than the others, but that does not mean it is BEST! Some people want to play Hawaiian music, some western swing, some modern country, some rockabilly, some blues, some jazz, some whatever - and they don't all need exactly the same 'best' tone!

There simply is no hard-and-fast rule to put the pickup at 1 1/2" from the bridge, and I guess there are quite a few good sounding instruments that have the pickup farther away; unfortunately I don't have one to measure it, but I guess the distance is quite a bit more on some Gibson BR models. There are plenty of twin-pickup lap-steels (Stringmaster, Guyatone, Framus,...), and there are quite a few of those with the neck pickup farther away than 3 1/2" - just look here: http://www.lapking.com/guitars.htm
- I kind of doubt that these sound bad...

And once again, I though this was a discussion forum, not a place for fights?

[This message was edited by Roman Sonnleitner on 23 April 2006 at 12:03 PM.]

Thank you so much for your overwhelming input to this topic. I have decided that I will do the mock up with the pickup upside down to find the optimal spot on the guitar. I also will make a solid contact like described.

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sounds best TO YOU!

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FACT...
You did misquote me when you said

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you say that 1 1/2" between Pickup and bridge ALWAYS sounds best

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As for helping you correct your misinterpretations of English, I shall cease, whilst addressing the original post, and I shall stand by MY findings, based on over 50 years of full time professional performing.
(Not that that's a yardstick by which to judge the accuracy or otherwise of my conclusions)
General respect from my peers would be the more representative measure.

Matthew, as baiting me It seems to be a popular game these days, forgive me if I only respond via DIRECT E-Mail..

[This message was edited by basilh on 23 April 2006 at 12:44 PM.]

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In my opinion ...

&

To each his own ...

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Since these didn't seem to work here ... let me state the following ...

I was responding to Mr. Billings & later, Mr. Sonnleitner's questions ... explaining to the best of my ability ... the theory behind the physical phenomenon asked of me.

If I failed to do that ... I will gladly refund your "Tuition Fee" ...

For the record ... I could care-less ...

1) Where anyone wants to place their pickups ...

2) How many pickups they want on a guitar ...

3) What materials they wish to use to build their guitars ...

Or ...

4) The manner in which they play their guitars.

Questions such as ...

quote:

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does a Rickenbacker sound better than a Stringmaster (to use the most popular 'foe' as example)?

Yes? No?

Should we let this be decided by a vote?

Is the Stringmaster pickup mounted 1 1/2" from the bridge?

Oooops, we can't tell, since it has two coils, which can be blended together (kinda like shifting the 'virtual' central polepiece between the two back and forth)...

Hmmm, must be something wrong with the Stringmaster sound

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And ...

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Rick Aiello, with all this said, it would seem, with so much of the physics known about materials, their placement, and the electronics, that a steel guitar could be built and the best possible sound/tone could be predicted in advance before beginning construction.

If this is true to a great degree, what would you say is the best (practical) material for the body of the guitar

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Seem to ask for my opinion ... yet somehow ... seem abit sarcastic ... ???

Since my preference for vintage steel guitars ... my personal choice of pickups and body material ... the style of steel guitar music I enjoy and attempt to play ... can be easily determined by visiting my website ...

I shall simply try again ... and say ...

To each his own.

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Hawaiian Steel Stuff
The Casteels

Except I've got some Ron Zacapa Rum ... that a good buddy gave me ... in my glass at the moment

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Hawaiian Steel Stuff
The Casteels

[This message was edited by Rick Aiello on 23 April 2006 at 03:00 PM.]

I'm only seeking information. When I retire, I want to build a double-neck eight with horseshoe pickups. Some of my own ideas I will be incorporating into the design; but from this thread I'm gathering information that will be supplimented to make it the best possible.

Rick