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  Emmons vs. Day C6th tuning?

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Author Topic:   Emmons vs. Day C6th tuning?
Tim Bridges
Member

From: Hoover, Alabama, USA

posted 03 May 2004 05:37 AM     profile     
I recently started an attempt at learning the C6th neck. I purchased BE's C6th course. The first thing I picked up on was that my guitar is tuned to G-1st string whereas BE's tuning is to a D-1st. There are also differences in the knee lever setup and pedal setup. My question is, what is the best way to go in learning the C6th? Day or Emmons tuning? It makes since that I should use BE's considering I have his course for C6th. I can also make necessary changes to setup of guitar to mimic BE's tuning. Seeking advice. Should I change to a D-1st string tuning? What seems to be an appropriate string guage? Any advice on this neck making a little more since would also be welcomed. Thanks in advance.
David L. Donald
Member

From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand

posted 03 May 2004 06:45 AM     profile     
There is plenty in BE's course to learn without worring about the D-G change.
I had the D and went to the G.

Basically map the levers you have to the ones in the BE booklet.
Most will be essentially the same I suspect, if not in the same places.
Once you have determined which knee does the same thing start learning tunes.

I believe Day vs Emmons is more and issue of ABC pedals reversed on E9....

Jimmy is listed here as only having the major 7 lever,
while Buddy has several more.
How does your's copmpare to these?
BE's is much more jazz oriented, ie powerful.

You can see both copedents side by side on this forum link. http://b0b.com/tunings/stars.html#C6jd

Buddy's more recent (I think) setup is here. http://www.buddyemmons.com/info.htm
This matches the Going out Swinging book.

You could for example flat the E on string 2 to get that D# and D if you want it badly. While keeping the top G.

Buddy has the 6th or A 4th string being flatted to #5th
which alternately can make a P6 chord turn minor.

I have added a lever lowering the 3rds, and a Crawford Jernigan pedal instead of the B's on P4

Still there is plenty to learn right off the bat.

[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 03 May 2004 at 06:47 AM.]

Bobby Lee
Sysop

From: Cloverdale, North California, USA

posted 03 May 2004 07:25 AM     profile     
As I understand it, the high G was originally there to get the then-popular A6th inversion (5th on top). After a while, people started adding the high C to C# lever which, combined with P8, gives you the real A6th.

Some people, including Buddy, felt that the C to C# change made the high G expendable. After all, you can get the exact same chord just 3 frets higher using the lever. Today the majority of players use D as their first string. It's very handy for fast leads on the top strings.

I've heard that Buddy sometimes retunes his first string to G for an old arrangement that requires it. I'm not sure what string gauge he uses that can take that sort of abuse, though.

Other than the first string, the only difference between Emmons' and Day's C6th is that Emmons has 4 knee levers. Those levers of his have pretty much become the standard. If you have the levers on your guitar, you should set them up for Buddy's changes.

------------------
Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (C6add9),
Sierra Laptop 8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6),
Roland Handsonic, Line 6 Variax

C Dixon
Member

From: Duluth, GA USA

posted 03 May 2004 07:45 AM     profile     
Ditto's to what the others have said.

I suggest also you set yours up like Buddy's. Including the D on top. There is sooooo much that can be done with that D. But make sure you raise the 3rd string to a C# if you put the D on top. To go along with what b0b said.

And when you raise it to an Eb with pedal 8, it fills a needed gap that has been missing on the C6 tuning since its inception.

The D on top can be used with:

1. Pedal 5 (becomes a root on top that we have needed for a very long time)

2. Pedal 6 (becomes the 13th of the F9th chord). Again needed forever. This can be done by pairing pedal 6 with 7 and not picking the 4 string; but it is sooo much nicer to have it by itself and make use of the 3rd and 4th strings not raised.

3. Fast single string rifts where the D note fits into the scale perfectly.

Finally, the Eb (pedal 8) on string 1 gives an all important "blues" note. In addition when used with pedal 6 (both feet) it provides an 'oft needed 7th tone in the treble register.

Go for it, I predict you will "lack" it

carl

Joey Ace
Sysop

From: Southern Ontario, Canada

posted 03 May 2004 09:12 AM     profile     
Doug Jerinigan tunes his first string to D, and then tunes it up to G mid-set for his arrangement of "Streets of Larado".

He says it will only last about 5 or 6 retunings. I think it's a 12 guage.

Herb Steiner
Member

From: Cedar Valley, Travis County TX

posted 03 May 2004 09:40 AM     profile     
I don't know if the C-C# raise on s.3 came before the addition of the D string. I first became aware of the D in 1977 when Paul Franklin Jr. told me about it during the DJ Convention that year. We were in the Bill Lawrence room at some hotel and he filled me in about playing in a minor key and melodic uses of the D.

At that time, most (though not all) C6 necks had one lever, or two at the most. I had two, one lowering C-B, and one raising s.4 A-A#. I played that way for a few years, using p.7 for my 5th-on-top inversion on s.3. Around 1982 I decided I needed the C-C# raise, so when I ordered my Emmons that year, I had 4 knees on C6 and one was that change.

------------------
Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association


Bobby Lee
Sysop

From: Cloverdale, North California, USA

posted 03 May 2004 12:37 PM     profile     
I stand corrected on the order of events.

You still play with G on top, don't you Herb?
Tim Bridges
Member

From: Hoover, Alabama, USA

posted 03 May 2004 01:34 PM     profile     
OK guys, I'm upside down making changes to my setup, changing the string guage on s.1, incorporating BE's setup and posting my reply. All kidding aside, thanks for your help. I hope more information pours out of this question. I will be going to work underneath the guitar tonight to set it up like BE. I'm sure in a week or so I'll be great at this C6th stuff. Well, maybe a bit longer than that. Can anyone clarify that when a tab shows 4 strings, are those 4 strings to be played simultaneously? Am I to choose which 1, 2, or 3 strings of the 4 shown are to be played? Short of a thumb strum, I don't see how I can play the chord unless I add another finger pick, or play one string without a pick. Everyones help is appreciated!
Bobby Lee
Sysop

From: Cloverdale, North California, USA

posted 03 May 2004 02:59 PM     profile     
The thumb often plays two notes, or all four if they're on adjacent strings.
Tim Bridges
Member

From: Hoover, Alabama, USA

posted 03 May 2004 04:34 PM     profile     
Guys, thanks a million! I hope there is someone on this forum late tonight, or early in the morning. I have a feelin' that there's gonna be some more questions. Please standby. Thanks again!
Herb Steiner
Member

From: Cedar Valley, Travis County TX

posted 03 May 2004 06:56 PM     profile     
b0b
No, I went to the D on top shortly after Paul discussed it with me. And there I have remained up to, and including, this day.

------------------
Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association


Jack Musgrave
Member

From: Rogersville, Missouri, USA

posted 04 May 2004 04:09 AM     profile     
where is the most comfortable place to put the C-C# raise on a lever? left or right or vertical?
Bobby Lee
Sysop

From: Cloverdale, North California, USA

posted 04 May 2004 07:42 AM     profile     
C to C# is usually on the right knee, opposite the C to B lever.
C Dixon
Member

From: Duluth, GA USA

posted 04 May 2004 07:57 AM     profile     
b0b is correct.

Interestingly, the C to C# raise is the only knee lever change where Buddy raises the middle octave also. There is good reason for this. This allows this knee lever to be used with pedal 5 instead of the old way of using both feet on pedal 5 and 8 for the A6th chord.

It does mess up (a tad) the knee lever change and pedal 6, but the lessor of two evils in this case is to raise the middle C up to a C# because of the above.

Oh if our bars only had hinges, huh

carl

Buck Dilly
Member

From: Branchville, NJ, USA

posted 04 May 2004 03:07 PM     profile     
I found that using D rather than G opened up the neck for me for single note improv. Concentrating on strings 1-4 you can do many combinations of 3 to 6 note scale movement without moving the bar more than one fret at a time. It is a "tertachord thing", really.
David L. Donald
Member

From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand

posted 04 May 2004 03:12 PM     profile     
Even though I don't at the moment use the D, you might go with the prevailing winds, till you have a greater understanding of C6.

I did have BE's exact set up as listed on his site.
But I have since put the C-C# on LKV, a fifth lever, and have a minor lever LKL and a 6th to dom7 lever RKR.
For relative minor chords which I find MUCH more useful than the D.
But that's me.

I prefer the higher note for a fuller upper octave, and get my minors differently,
but that isn't to say your should.

[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 04 May 2004 at 03:13 PM.]

Tim Bridges
Member

From: Hoover, Alabama, USA

posted 04 May 2004 09:28 PM     profile     
All right! I'm trying to assimilate imformation faster than is possible for me. Thanks! I really mean it. The whole dialogue that has been going on has really been an eye opener. My set up is EB except for my current s.1 tuned to G and I lack the s.7 C---C# with KL. I can easily add that and change to the D on s.1. I think that there is an infinite number of decisions that can be made. So, I only have to make one. I'm going to the D on s.1 and I would appreciate advice on adding the KL for C---C3 on s.7. Thanks for all the great and challenging advice.
David Mason
Member

From: Cambridge, MD, USA

posted 05 May 2004 01:39 AM     profile     
b0b's advice that you "should" set up your guitar like Buddy's is most useful if you are interested in duplicating the licks of other people. If you look at the tunings under "Links" on this site, you'll see that there is still a wide diversity. Look at Paul Franklin's tuning - Gaak! I use the high G and a knee lever setup that gives me another C6th position at the 4th fret, because I am more interested in single-string melody possibilities right now than in regurgitation.
David L. Donald
Member

From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand

posted 05 May 2004 01:56 AM     profile     
Tim a good set of decisions I think.
You will like the C# for sure.
There is plenty to discover in BE's set up.

One thing about the PSG it is one of the few intruments that really can be personalized to a great extent.

I have less need to copy all of one or another's classic licks.
But I HAVE copied many because I wanted them.
At the same time I also saw certain things I personally found lacking on C6 for what I wanted to do. Particuarly speed wise to do certain changes, so I made my changes.

But not till after I had discovered the lion's share of things on a the more standard set up, and still wanted what I wanted.

[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 05 May 2004 at 01:58 AM.]

J D Sauser
Member

From: Traveling, currently in Switzerland, soon to be either back in the States or on the Eastern part of Hispaniola Island

posted 05 May 2004 02:10 AM     profile     
I think that tuning setup details should not be of mayor concern to you yet, if you are, as you state, starting to attemt to learn C6th.
C6th is an open tuning and much of what you hear is done by bar movement, so, much of what you will learn at the beginning will be with little pedal and lever work.
I also think that you wouldn't be ill advised to check out Jeff Newman's C6th videos first. It's basic but effective stuff and most of all it will make you understand how C6th is approached basically. It's 5 pedals and the C-to-B-lever, D on top.
If you play E9th you will get used to the D on top easily as it works like one of the so called "chromatics" on E9th, one more reason to opt for it.

... J-D.

Bobby Lee
Sysop

From: Cloverdale, North California, USA

posted 05 May 2004 07:57 AM     profile     
I know some C6th players who never touch the pedals at all, and others that only use them when playing chords.

The "standard" only has one knee lever. Many guitars don't even have a separate knee grouping for the C6th neck. If you have the levers, I recommend Buddy's changes because they seem to be the most useful musically and the most widely accepted, not because they are useful for duplicating other people's licks.

Now and then you hear a trick on record that can only be gotten with a specialized, non-standard pedal. Or so you think. In fact, there is very little music that requires special changes, and there are very few jobs that will require you to play something that's not possible on the standard copedents. In 30 years of playing, I've yet to have a band leader or session producer ask for something that wasn't musically possible on a plain D-10 or U-12.

My point is that you can't go wrong with the standard changes, but you can make big mistakes if you ignore them. I've been there, done that, and I regret it very much. 30 years of reflex actions can't be changed easily.

------------------
Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (C6add9),
Sierra Laptop 8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6),
Roland Handsonic, Line 6 Variax

Stephen Gambrell
Member

From: Ware Shoals, South Carolina, USA

posted 05 May 2004 12:54 PM     profile     
"Oh if our bars only had hinges, huh "

Good idea, Carl---You ever talk to Mac about that???

C Dixon
Member

From: Duluth, GA USA

posted 05 May 2004 02:36 PM     profile     
Stephen,

Regrettably my precious friend passed away last year. He is sorely missed. NO one like him on earth.

May our Lord rest his soul,

carl

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