I'm just answering off the top of my head, and maybe you appreciate the off the cuffness of my answers. I'm not making stuff up.

I've heard all kinds of stuff more out of tune than I like to think I'd have played it, and a durn site of it more in tune.
I try to keep it simple and focus more on the "playing" if it.

Here's a for instance.

Last few weeks I have been playing with a good band that does stuff I'm not familiar with.

A great example was "Why am I drinking" that has an "excess" of "IV chords". I was really tickled that I could take a full instrumental and be comfortable with playing a solo that followed chords that haven't yet been burned into my brain. I was't thinking of "tuning" at all. I hadn't looked at my "meter" for more than an hour. On "Night life" I was in heaven because the band waited for me to resolve the II chord into a major before they did.

To me "that's the joy and challenge of live playing. Not nit picking about how many cents your thirds are detuned from "440".

Thanks for your reading, forbearance, your genuine questions, answers, our emails, and your manners above all.

I shoot for the best I find in my idols.

You provide much.

Respectfully.

EJL

Pete,

There'll be more stuff for you to make fun of as time goes by.

Your stuff to me will as always, usually sound better than no playing at all.

Post it yourself from now on. I'm busy.

Good luck with the gig thing. I'm putting on "Lipstick and Beer" as I type.

Great stuff.

Dish out whatever you wish. We'll see how my appetite holds up.

Your "wit" is entertaining if nothing else.

Jeff. I told you it wouldn't go well, but now I see that it will if I take a little more time than I had budgeted.

Sheesh..

EJL

[This message was edited by Eric West on 24 July 2005 at 03:02 PM.]

As for the F lever, while the stop on the F lever (strings 4 and 8) would be 32 cents flat of ET, and might be even further flat because of cabinet drop, the root of that chord is the C# on the A pedal (strings 5 and 10), which would only be 16 cents flat of ET, if it was tuned pure JI as the 3rd of the A chord. Thus the bar needs to be only 1/6 of a fret above the fret for correct intonation. Many competent players get that bar placement in tune by ear all the time. As Lloyd Green, the inventor of the F lever, apparently tunes by ear, not ET, I assume this is the way we have always heard him play that combination.

Mr Dogget. My esteemed fellow from across the planetary aisle:

I don't believe that Mr Green has mentioned, and I've scoured his emails to me, that just because he tunes "by ear" that he is using the "JI" system in any form represented here.

It's no more accurate than somebody's assuming that because he tunes "by ear" that he tunes his thirds closer if not to "ET".

Are there any more clearer ways I can put this? He tunes "by ear" from what he's told me, from an E on his old circular pitch pipe.

Much as I love and respect him, bless his heart, I'd have to say that even if he invented the F lever and told me that it was way flat from a "meter" I'd still not flatten mine a cent, though I wouldn't tell him probably.. (I might ask him, but mostly we talk about the civil war, egyptology, and I her gret stories about his playing career.)

Considering what his ears have been through, I'd trust them a lot more music than mine, (if not heavy machine noise) and would deign to say "what they hear".

Mine have not been through as much, but I trust them as long as they hold out. (They ring every saturday and sunday mornings down from every morning for years and years.)

Most assuredly, he doesn't follow any complex "Tuning Chart". I CAN tell you that much, besides his consternation at all these players not being able to tune their friggin' instruments and eight grade arguing about it (* maybe it was ninth grade). That's as close to the direct quote as forum policy will permit, I'm afraid.

As always, these incrimental assumptions start innocently enough, kind of like Mr. Emmons' comments and clear quotes being at first ever so slightly misrepresented, widened, and turned into the opposite of what they clearly state. ("I may go a cent or so flat in some cases but strictly to handle temp changes under certain conditions.")

quote:

---

Spending a half hour to learn how to tune your 10- to 20-string instrument with dozens of pedal and knee stops does not seem like too much to ask of a beginner.

---

Oh-my-god....

EJL

[This message was edited by Eric West on 24 July 2005 at 03:49 PM.]

I'd spend much less time than that.

Much like some of the things Mr Charleton would tell me.

"Tune it before you come back, or you're wasting both our time."

10 seconds tops.

I tuned mine, in fact, before my first lesson on it and the subject never came up.

I never had the urge, the calling, or the chutzpah to teach, not even after 26 years.

About the time you find a student that makes it all worthwhile, they break your heart. I know. I broke my classical guitar teacher's 35 years ago, though he didn't let on.

I've spent a lot of time trying not to break BC's. If he was smart, he forgot about me and went bass fishing.

I think he is, and I think he did..

Thread will be titled
"Tuning: Some Examples"

Peace

------------------
Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 197? Sho-Bud S-12 7x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

For those just tuning in, tuning all strings and stops straight up to a chromatic meter, as Eric advocates, is tuning pure ET (equal temper). Taking the only the root of an open tuning from a standard source (pitch pipe, tuning fork, electronic meter, keyboard, etc) and tuning the beats out by ear is pure JI (just intonation). One can also look up a JI chart and use a chromatic meter to tune pure JI. In practice, there are some technical difficulties in tuning a pedal steel with several pedals and knee levers to pure JI for every conceivable string, pedal and knee combination. So typically an "ear tuner" will make some compromises and end up with some strings or stops tuned somewhere between pure JI and pure ET. But different people will make different degrees of compromise. So when someone says they take their Es and tune by ear (as Lloyd Green has said), it is not possible to know exactly how close they are to either JI or ET.

Other than isolated chords, solo steel ballads with long chords will probably best show the differences. Maybe it will come down to whether one or the other tuning method makes it easier for a particular individual to play in tune. It is difficult to make a fair comparison, because if one tunes opposite from usual, it may sound bad at first simply because one is not accustomed to playing that way and so can't do it well. Maybe with some practice it would get better, both because our ears became more accustomed to it, and our hands got better at playing it in tune. Maybe even with some good examples we will keep coming back to what Larry Bell and others have long been saying, a good player who is use to one method of tuning can make it sound good, no matter which method it is.

EJL

[This message was edited by Eric West on 24 July 2005 at 05:39 PM.]

quote:

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I will leave it to the reader to decide what it means when a steeler who learned decades before ET chromatic meters became popular says he takes his Es from a standard source, and tunes by ear. -DD-

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Thanks from all of us I'm sure..

It's taken a few thousand words to get us there, but every little step helps.

quote:

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Even a baby duck can peck you to death given the right circumstances. -Unknown ET Tuner-

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You're alright Mr Doggett.

EJL

[This message was edited by Eric West on 24 July 2005 at 07:04 PM.]

Never try to have a rational argument with an irrational number...

Great thread!

That's it. "Perfect" tuning is in fact impossible.

Now I can just go back to enjoying playing what sounds good to me.

Thanks for the enlightening thread.

Now where did I put that old pitch pipe...

quote:

---

I'd say there is no problem with that playing and the way you tune.

---

do I get that CD now, Frank?

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 197? Sho-Bud S-12 7x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

1....Do you believe your playing between jobs is out of tune, and if not, do you believe a JI player would agree?

No reason for anyone to shoot you as you so expressed, and I don't understand how your comment addressed my question.

2. If "averaging is the answer", is that not a contradiction to ET?

3. Motor function is also considered conditioned reflex, and if I were to play
something out of tune I would recognize it as a tuning issue even if it was too late.
I would then simply take the time to tune. A Conn Strobe is a great tuner, and as you know, it also can provide JI reference.

4. I don't understand your response to this question. Would you care to rephrase?

5. Do I understand you to say ET is a "compromise"?

6. Sorry, but I don't understand your reference to this question?

7. I commend you on your playing and I would have liked to have heard your guitar strummed and the pedals and knee levers depressed before you started playing. Possibly you could do so to help validate your opinion when you have the time and inclination.

7a. I'm of course familiar with Buddy's exceptional talent, but at the same time, I'm also aware of other exceptional players who don't use the same method of tuning that I understand Buddy uses. You might pose the question to Paul,(whom you referenced) but unless I'm mistaken, Paul tunes much closer to the perceived JI than he does ET.

I for one never found it astounding that playing a steel guitar required compensation, all instruments have intonation characteristics with which they must contend.

You advocate your method of tuning is simple, but to me nothing is more simple or pleasing than making the guitar sound intune, which JI accomplishes for most.

I too have had students over the past who would not have responded favorably had I tuned their guitar to ET. Even total beginners know when something sounds out of tune.

Tuning JI is every bit as simple to tune, you still have the same amount of strings and pulls. I believe most will agree, JI sounds better when tuning, to which I think you will agree. Besides, in my opinion if either takes longer to tune than the other, that is not the point, the point is sounding in tune both on and off the job.

I didn't take anything you said as an affront. In fact I agree with you in that this issue is very important to all players and to the evolution of steel guitar, which in all honesty was my motivation for asking questions and providing my opinion and observations.

It is not my intention to make anyone doubt their method of tuning if they are happy with their tuning procedure. However, it's important to me players are provided information they need to make valid decisions, which is what makes this discussion so important.

None of my students will ever say I told them they could not do anything. One of the best examples of why I never tell them that, is the late Thumbs Carlisle.

As far as the "usual and customary" approach to playing regular guitar, Thumbs was a total contradiction. He laid his guitar flat across his lap, fingered the guitar from the top, used a thumb pick, and I understand....an E tuning.

Had his teacher told him he could "not" do that, and had it stifled his will to continue, the world would have never had the opportunity to experience the musical gift he gave so many.

This is why I never tell a student they can't do whatever feels natural to them. At the same time I accept a responsibility to each student to teach them as best I can.

To accomplish my obligation as a teacher, I avoid interfering with their natural talent and tendencies by telling them what I believe to be the odds for success if they continue doing something which for most, would not be workable. I would not want it on my conscience that I interfered with or stiffled someones natural and creative ability.

Mike B....Dan Tyack had a great idea by comparing both tuning methods at the same time. Did he place that demonstration on the forum, and if so would you please provide a link.

Wouldn't it be great if a JI and an ET player were to sit side beside and strum their tunings, pedals and levers, then each play a song.

Thanks for replying to my response to your questions. I trust you have enjoyed the work done as per your request on the "Examples Thread". Mr Bell and others have done us a great service to at least "try" and put down some distinct examples of different tunings. I think that's as far as I've seen it go without breaking down into to word games, and nit picking. I hope it continues, and I hope to post some things as I am trying to chase down tapes, and hone my USB on the Pod and incorporate other "tracks". I am either working, typing, eating or sleeping, and the weekend brings two gig nites, and two late sleeping days. The lawn needs mowed and the dogs need fed, and it starts again...

Ok.

Your latest questions. I don't have a lot of time tonite as it's been 12s this week in the rock pit, and I don't mean Johhny B Good...

1. I don't notice it, tune back "where it was" like most all probably do, without a lot of deliberation as I do. I've had "JI" guys over, and they didn't bitch about it..

"So shoot me.." is an old comical expression, kind of like " Well, smear my ears with rasberry jam and tie me to an anthill.."

2. Sure, if that is what you want to call it.

3. I didn't know that. I thought there were degrees of voluntary conditioning, and reflex, the latter able to be controlled through conditioning, deliberately by the brain, but then it was my brain that was telling me that.... Most of us, and I'm sure you do too, say, break a string and maybe the other one on the pull pedals sharp, you usually automatically adjust, though it is "deliberate" and non reflexive, until you can tune, or if a guitar player knocks one out a bit, similarly.

4.In my experience, Reece, everything's a compromise of some sort..

This is discussed in the "Examples" section at length. Myself, I don't detune anything deliberately. It's not "perfect", but I don't "tamper" with it. I've gotten used to hearing it that way perhaps because for 23 years I didn't know there was a different way to tune. Believe, you me, I know that there are people that do it now...

I appreciate your time in this. Paul has answered several questions I've asked him over the years, He's answered every one I ever asked him. I never asked him how he tuned, or why. Others have and I read his answers. I've answered his questions as best I could.

I think possibly the greater the player is, the more he or she uses his or her guitar to communicate, and especially if it is all they do for hours and hours of the day, it becomes the stronger suit of their communication. Few can deny that.

Mr Charleton in my experience was not very verbally communicative. In the couple years of weekly lessons I don't think we ever talked more than an hour all told about "anything". I don't think he could have told me more than he did with his guitar.

It's a choice that I'm glad you, Paul, Mike Randy, Tommy, Lloyd, Buddy, Bobbe, Gary, Lynn, Larry, Bruce, and others have made.

You won't need to go very far to "catch me up", if I get into overly "complex issues" or try to answer overly complex questions. I'm not as clever as I wish I was. I'm usually too tired.

I'm just a plain old guy that's played a lot of gigs tuning the same way with a lot of different bands, and giving you answers off the top of my head.

I tune to what my tuner says, play a guitar that has damn near no "cabinet drop" thanks to Duane and Jeff, and play gigs every weekend with few exceptions. Sometimes they are satisfying and gratifying, sometimes I just take the money. Though I always at least get that.

Thanks for your playing, your positive examples, your correspondence, and your treating me like I was worthy of your asking me even one question.

Some of your questions were a little confusing, and I think it's more on my part.

I apologize. No "If", anywhere.

Anyhow, I hope you'll approve of, and peruse the "Examples" thread if possible. There's a lot of good "explanation" in it.

Sincerely Reece,

EJL

[This message was edited by Eric West on 27 July 2005 at 09:19 PM.]

Tom,
I don't know if it's written down. A luthier showed me this tuning, and it may be common for shop work, as it's quick (quicker than reading the article).
It relies on an A or E starting point, and you don't have to use harmonics, you can tune adjacent strings at the 5th fret.
The key is the unisons of the first string, 3rd fret, with the G string; and the 2nd string, third fret, tuned to the D string.

You just play with that guideline and get a method that works for you.

[This message was edited by Charlie McDonald on 28 July 2005 at 04:24 AM.]

Trying to tune to a 'gnat's eyelash' will make you crazy. Learn to PLAY in tune while the string is tuned to a RANGE of frequencies. This skill will serve one much better that working out whether the best note to tune to is 13.65 cents flat or 13.75.

Just my opinion.

------------------
Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 197? Sho-Bud S-12 7x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

quote:

---

differences of less than 5 cents are not noticeable

---

Tom, if you read the writer's harmonic tuning methods closely, and listen to the harmonics he uses, you will discover that he is never tuning to anything but a unison or an octave. The harmonic at the 5th fret is an octave harmonic, an octave lower than the harmonic at the 12th fret. I don't know why that is, but if you try it you will see it's true. The forbidden harmonic at the 7th fret is a 5th, the same as the fretted note at the 7th fret. The writer's method does not tune any notes at the nut except the 1st and 6th strings, octave Es. On all the other notes, he listens to an open string, or its octave harmonic (5th or 12th fret), then tunes another string that is FRETTED to play an octave from the open string or harmonic. He is never tuning to anything but an octave. That is of course the easiest interval to tune, and should be beatless, even for ET.

There is an easier way to do the same thing on regular guitar. You tune the 1st and 6th strings in octaves. Now you tune the other strings so that each open string is in unison with the next lower string fretted at the 5th fret. The only exception is the 3rd string, which is in unison with the 2nd string when the 3rd string is fretted at the 4th fret. That's just the way the standard guitar tuning works out. It is tuned in 4ths, except for the 2nd string being a 3rd. An additional internal string check is that the 4th string at the 2nd fret should be the octave between the 1st and 6th strings. This method gives an ET tuning and requires no harmonics.

Harmonics are mainly useful on a fretted guitar for checking the bridge adjustment. If the 5th and 12th fret octave harmonics don't match the note fretted at the 12th fret, the bridge needs adjusting. But those are all octave harmonics.

As the traveling salesman said to the farmers son:
"It looks like I'm in the wrong joke !"

Bob

[This message was edited by Bob Hoffnar on 28 July 2005 at 07:01 PM.]

quote:

---

oops. I posted an answer to a question nobody asked by mistake.

---

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1984 Sho-Bud S/D-12 7x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

[This message was edited by Larry Bell on 28 July 2005 at 08:47 PM.]

------------------
If You Keep Pickin That Thing, It'll Never Heal!
;)

I'm really thankful for Buddy Emmons, Paul Franklin, Lloyd Green, Maurice, and others for participating, even in the middle of "arguments".

Possibly not as much for those that just comment from time to time that there's "too much writin' goin' on... huh..huh..huh.."

I think that Mr Franklin's latest comments said it all for those of us that cared to read.

quote:

---

I can honestly say, knock on wood, my ears haven't failed me yet. Nobody plays perfectly in tune all the time. I have some out of tune parts left on records where I pleaded for a second swing at the bat. With musicians the powers to be sometimes decide a musicians emotional and rhythmical performance outweighs a slight intonation issue.

-Paul-

---

I don't know if he realized it, but I actually think he said as much about the "Tremendous Tunin' Question" or more than anyone.

I especially thank Paul and Buddy for taking the time to get into the "thick of it" with a bunch of bush leaguers.

To all of our great benefit, and to their great credit.

It's all been saved to generations too thanks to b0b.

(You are backing up your HDDS, right??)

I have seen many people carefully tune their steel guitars, and then hold the bar not on the fret or exactly parallel with the fret. So much for accurate tuning!

Find a tuning method that pleases you, and if you can also find a band or group that likes (oe tolerates) your playing - enjoy.

------------------
If You Keep Pickin That Thing, It'll Never Heal!
;)

quote:

---

Never try to have a rational argument with an irrational number...

---

JI sounds best to me: I've tried both and I can't deal with tuning my steel to ET - sounds horrible. How would it sound in a mix of other instruments tuned to ET? No idea - the opportunity will probably never come where that would be a tolerable experiment.

It's funny though: the pedal steel has one of the best operational schemes of all the instruments to deal with the phenomenon of intonation, given that practically all the open tunings (affected by the various pull combinations) can be sweetened up (tempered) better than most instruments can, and that quality carries out onto the bar, no matter where you put it (provided you hold it straight) and a little bit of vibrato polishes it to what should be incontrovertibly acceptable... And yet I have seen more debates among pedal steel players about tempering than any other type of instrumentalist.