Just to check, here's the drone chords WITHOUT the piano: http://www.larrybell.org/mp3/ji2_no_pno.mp3

sounds pretty beatless to me.
do you know how hard it is to play with NO VIBRATO AT ALL???

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page

[This message was edited by Larry Bell on 25 July 2005 at 06:23 PM.]

I have certainly learned something. I would not be afraid to use ET on the bandstand, and must admit it might brighten things up and cut through the mix nicely on uptempo numbers. And it would certainly be a good choice for playing open at the nut. But I'm still thinking that closer to JI has more soulfulness for slow ballads and solo steel.

(BTW, yes, I re-recorded both the drone chords and the Bud's Bounce examples after retuning)

Since the 'tampered' tuning is my own methodology, I probably play it with more confidence. And, no, Donny, it's certainly not beatless. I've learned to live with it. It has served me well without having to make the full leap to ET thirds and sixths, which still bother me solo. But in ensemble, they are all perfectly acceptable and each may have its own application. I play a lot with keyboard players and this compromise was one that would allow solo playing and playing with an ET keyboard.

Sorry about the JI thing. My ears must've been tired when I recorded it -- it was the last retuning. Whatever . . . we have good examples for each now.

Tim,
Don't know what to tell you, bud. I'm not really looking for a standard -- just what works for me. There are a lot of us old math / science / engineering guys around. This stuff allows us to put some numbers on our art.

Also, Hans,
Your spreadsheet is a very nice piece of work, once I figured out how to use it. I looked at the formulas and it all made sense. The 'adding intervals' piece was confusing me. Thanks for the excellent tool.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 197? Sho-Bud S-12 7x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

[This message was edited by Larry Bell on 25 July 2005 at 07:38 PM.]

There's good honest effort being put forth for once.

It's interesting, and rational.

For a change.

I end up listening to your great playing skills on Bud's Bounce instead of the subtle tuning differences. I guess that's why it doesn't seem to matter which method the best players use - they all sound perfect regardless.

Just a little humor. I'm in that same class of folks...engineers. It can really be punishing at times. No, I don't ever see a standard that can work for every PSG.

I basically use the JN tuning, with a little tampering for my guitar. Saturday night I was playing with a fellow PSG player who can really play (and tune). He tuned my Derby the same as he would his Emmons PP. My Derby didn't sound right to me, but his PP sounded great. Some of that may be due to how I play, or compensations that I make, habits I have developed, etc.

I had an old Sho-Bud Professional that was a real booger to try and tune, much less to keep in tune. The Derby has been a great advancement for me. I have cabinet drop, but nothing like the ol' ShoBud. Maybe each guitar has its own temperment that requires tampering. I don't think anything is exact, or universal. Between the guitar and the player, there are idiosyncracies that a particular tuning alone won't work. Heck, we'd have to measure bar pressure, fretting position, etc. I just try to get my guitar to sound in tune to me. It's obvious when it's out of tune, to me and everybody else.

The one thing I do know to be a fact is that we all hear things a little different. Some folks have a better developed ear for tuning, whereas some of us may never develop that ability.

When I listen to Emmon's Black album or anything by Jay Dee, Reece, Green, Hughey, Jernigan, Rugg, and pretty much every steel guitarist on every major recording since country has been around, I can hear why JI blends well with the band and in all these cases the steels are in tune with their surrounding instruments.

The ET method is rarely found on major records. I believe the reason is because the rules for orchestral arranging applies to all instruments for sounding in tune with a band.

Since the human ear has to be trained to accept the sound of the ET sharp thirds beating feverishly in its major triads, and the steel sits on the surface of the band track, as does vocals and strings, and because ALL of those musical/orchestral parts are performed as JI, it then becomes more important that the steel should be tuned to fit its sonic place in the band.

Most producers I know will not accept ET as sounding in tune and will ask us check our tuning when we present them an ET tuned triad. I know this because I have tried this in the studio.

Percussive instruments like the piano and guitar blend together sonically. Because the steel is more bell like with its intial attack, it does not blend with the percussive attack of those instruments the same way the voice, violins, and other non- percussive instruments don't blend with rhythm section instruments. This is why something closer to JI has been and still is the standard way a steel guitar is tuned for recordings.

A perfectly tuned instrument of any kind is an oxymoron.
None of the pro's tune strictly ET or JI. These are just starting points. They all adjust to the center of the bands pitch as which is always necessary. If a JI player wants to use all the positions of the ET tuning method they can do this by adding compensators to the F#'s and D strings. Therefor both tuning methods offer the same voicing possibilities.

Paul

[This message was edited by Franklin on 26 July 2005 at 05:59 AM.]

I would love to use a wound sixth, but my sixth string goes up and down like crazy. At minimum, my 'B6 side' takes me from G# to A# and G# to F# is a change I can't hardly do without. Sometimes I lower G# to E and you'd never do that on a wound sixth. It was a new string, so that's about the best a 020p can sound, I guess. The harder you hit it the sharper it goes -- you can see it on the meter. I loved it when I used a wound sixth, but just couldn't get the changes I needed to have.

Interesting that you, Capt b0b, and I all tune to pretty much the same offsets. I always had you pegged as a 'tune by harmonics / by ear straight JI guy'.

And, as always, thanks, Paul, for your unique perspective. I've admired your playing for three decades or so and hope to continue hearing your playing and your ideas for many more to come.

I'll say it again: there are many ways to tune a pedal steel guitar. There's only one way to play it in tune: with your EARS.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 197? Sho-Bud S-12 7x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

quote:

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A perfectly tuned instrument of any kind is an oxymoron.
None of the pro's tune strictly ET or JI. These are just starting points. They all adjust to the center of the bands pitch as which is always necessary.

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Thank you, Paul.

With a piano there are 2 to 3 strings for every note. Those strings are not tuned to a perfect unison. This is to produce "beats" that will "soften" the harshness of certan intervals. When you hit any key on a piano with the sustain pedal down, it will cause other strings to ring. Those multiple strings per note have to be "stretched" to blend in with the note that is ringing as an overtone. However, the multiple strings all ringing together produces a "summed" note. And that would read ET on a meter. But that is not the case with our insturment.

From the guitar players point of view, has anyone mentioned the adjustable bridge? Try adjusting your bridge to the perfect octave. Straight across like ours. Then tune ET and see if you like it.

quote:

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Paul, you were up late!

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What you say is really true, Randy. Many of us were brought up with this compulsion to tune ALL THE BEATS OUT. When we'd hear beats our flesh would crawl. I ran into situations where I was about to lose session gigs -- radio jingles and product promo soundtracks -- certainly not major label stuff like Paul. The reason was that the producer was a keyboard player and all his stuff was sequenced using an electronic keyboard. The totally beatless pedal steel sounded terrible against the piano. I HAD to figure out a way to make it work, but couldn't bring myself to tune my G# C# and F notes straight up. I started splitting the difference and learning to accept the beats. True, ET can produce harshness as you mention, but, analogous to the piano, a few beats in the right places can add richness to the sound. I far prefer playing with an acoustic piano, but rarely have the choice.

Thanks for your perspective, Randy. I've admired your playing for many years.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 197? Sho-Bud S-12 7x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

[This message was edited by Larry Bell on 26 July 2005 at 07:09 AM.]

Yep, I must have had my time zones in ET. Here in Pulltight TN we are about 2hours and 20 minuites ahead of the west coast.

[This message was edited by Randy Beavers on 26 July 2005 at 09:05 AM.]

Which guitar was it?

2003 Fessy
late 70's Sho-Bud
late 60's push-pull

Here are the Bud's Bounce samples again, just for reference:
JI http://www.larrybell.org/mp3/buds_ji.mp3
ET http://www.larrybell.org/mp3/buds_et.mp3
"Tampered" http://www.larrybell.org/mp3/buds_tampered.mp3

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 197? Sho-Bud S-12 7x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

[This message was edited by Larry Bell on 26 July 2005 at 10:30 AM.]

Thanks for taking the time to post your tuning mp3's and analysis, they are much appreciated and in the true spirit of the forum.

thanks again,
Drew

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Drew Howard - website - Fessenden D-10 8/8, Fessenden SD-12 5/5 (Ext E9), Magnatone S-8, N400's, BOSS RV-3

Thanks for adding more great points to the thread.

To everyone,

Just because a player uses a version of JI should not equate to an assumption that the F lever in the third fret up position needs to be avoided. There is an easy solution for this inherent JI voicing problem. Have compensators put on the F#'s and D strings on the A & B pedals to nudge them back towards the tuning center. I borrowed that solution from Reece.

Personally, I hate the term JI to describe the mostly beatless tuning method steelers use on sessions. I certainly don't adhere to a perfect JI concept and I really don't know of any professional steel guitarist that does. All the way to JI or ET doesn't work for most producers ears.

Larry,
I'm puzzled by your programming session. I also do this alot and have never run into that particular scenario. IMO the toughest set of ears on this planet belong to Mutt Lange and on Shania's "Up" CD I had to add my steel to his completely programmed pop tracks for the Country versions and never had any problems.

Anyway, you are a brave man to subject your musicanship to the tuning test and I, among many, thank you for your contribution here.

Paul

[This message was edited by Franklin on 26 July 2005 at 02:14 PM.]

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 197? Sho-Bud S-12 7x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

Great ears, guys.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 197? Sho-Bud S-12 7x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

And Larry, I liked your "tampered" tuning the best. It seems fairly close to what I use.

[This message was edited by Randy Beavers on 26 July 2005 at 06:47 PM.]

I know its not best for work to call him on it, but I would have loved for you to ask him to mute the keyboard tracks to see if you sounded in tune with the rest of the band. I'll bet you did.

Ricky

[This message was edited by Ricky Davis on 26 July 2005 at 11:37 PM.]

quote:

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I call this method "fault tolerant tuning".

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This is a good resolution to a thorny issue.

Randy put it quite well. from the Scientific American: when the piano's hammer hits the three strings, there is a sharp attack and a rapid decay as the strings begin to occillate (?) together, a situation totally different from a single string on a PSG.

Charlie -- well put. b0b -- nice terminology. Think I'll stick with 'tampered' -- has a nice 'ring' to it.

I may have to take the cigar back, guys.
The REAL reason I used the Sho-Bud was that it is my newest guitar -- only had it a week or two -- and I hadn't heard it recorded before. I LIKE IT. It certainly goes into regular rotation with the Emmons and Fessy. ESPECIALLY after I take it by to be blessed by Father Coop in a few weeks.

Thanks Paul, for participating in our little discourse!

quote:

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I tune my thirds to 438 just to compensate for a possible drift of that note a cent or two sharp.

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Due to the slight stretching of the string when it is first picked (especially when picked with verve and elan), the string is initially sharp relative to its sustained resonance. For best results in session work do you tune so that the initial attack of each string is in tune and the sustained note flat or the picked note sharp and the sustain in tune? Or something else altogether?

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Klaus Caprani

MCI RangeXpander S-10 3x4
www.klauscaprani.com

Good question. If a player hears the strings going flat after the string is played, chances are the player is striking the strings too hard. I use a strong attack for fast lines and a softer touch for ballad lines. I always tune to the softer sustained touch.