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Musicians union pro or con (Page 1)
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| This topic is 2 pages long: 1 2 This topic was originally posted in this forum: Wanted To Buy |
| Author | Topic: Musicians union pro or con |
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Larry Clark Member Posts: 419 |
posted 08 March 2000 07:24 PM
I have been considering joining the local musicians union, and was just wondering from those of you who are members if you could give me any feedback. Thanks, Larry |
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pix1 Member Posts: 951 |
posted 08 March 2000 07:37 PM
Hey Larry, If you wanna' fork over money to somebody for doing nothing, please send it my way. Also, send me a percentage of all gig earnings. Don't play any of the clubs that I tell you not to. I still have a listing of union members who were behind with their dues. One of the members they claimed to be "Looking for" was Willie Nelson. If they're not competent enough to locate Willie Nelson, what could they possibly do for you? |
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Donny Hinson Member Posts: 9192 |
posted 08 March 2000 07:44 PM
Boy..this one should be interesting!  |
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Michael Douchette Member Posts: 675 |
posted 08 March 2000 07:51 PM
Larry, Well, I've been a member of local 257 here in Nashville for 26 years now. Many times, I feel as though my dues are a waste. Then, I look back and see the wages I've collected over all these years and think how much of that I would have lost if someone could have just come along and taken my gig (wait a minute... S.H., that did happen once, didn't it?) Anyway, being a member allows you to work with some of the finest musicians that you might not be able to work with otherwise; not that it would affect you, but it would affect them. They would have to pay a hefty fine for working with a non-union player. So if I hadn't joined, I never would have worked with Pig Robbins... or Pete Wade... or Gregg Galbraith... or Hal Rugg... or John Hughey... or Lloyd Green... or Milton Sledge... or Terry Feller... or Jerry Kroon... or Johnny Gimble... or any of the great musicians and friends I have here. Join... it won't hurt... and it will help. Mikey ------------------ |
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Marty Pollard Member Posts: 392 |
posted 08 March 2000 07:55 PM
quote:Would you please explain why? |
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Charlie Hunter Member Posts: 9 |
posted 08 March 2000 08:00 PM
At one time this guy came over to where the band was sitting, introduced himself as the local union rep. and started talking about all the advantages of belonging to the union.It was sounding pretty good until one of my buddies told me that none of the clubs or gigs we played at were union houses and if I joined I would not be allowed to play at any of the gigs we had booked. It didn't sound so great after that. I guess if joining would instantly get you gigs with uncle Willie or Barf,oops, I mean Garth it might be worth it but it don't work that way.So not for me. ------------------ |
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Earl Erb Member Posts: 886 |
posted 08 March 2000 08:21 PM
I have been a member of the AFM for 38 yrs,32 here in Nashville. Unfortunately,if you want to do legit sessions,jingles,radio and TV in this town you have to belong.These companies file contracts and forward the checks to the union office where the union now collects 3% of the gross amount of the check or checks for work dues. I remember once in the early 80s a recording company went belly up and owed me and a handful of well known players roughly $1200.The leader was double.After a couple of meetings with then president Johnny DeGeorge not a dime was recovered on our behalf.So you figure it out whether the union is a good thing.The only reason I maintain my status with 257 is to protect my pension and benefits that I earned from 1968 through 1988.  |
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Michael Douchette Member Posts: 675 |
posted 08 March 2000 08:21 PM
Marty, I wish I could "explain" with authority. I can only say that those are the regulations and by-laws of the union. They are there to protect the union membership, and to assure (more or less) that a fair wage will be paid to all. For example, if we work a non-union recording date (referred to as a "dark" date), we can each be fined up to $10,000. Working out at a club with non-union players could cost you up to $500 for the night. It's enough to make sure you pay your dues. Mikey ------------------ |
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Earl Erb Member Posts: 886 |
posted 08 March 2000 08:33 PM
When did they start calling scab sessions dark dates? I guess the lighter terminolgy doesn't sound like a disease. The unions version of what road scale should be has always been a joke.The artists I worked for always paid way over scale.Thank God for that because a road musician could qualify for food stamps if the artists honored the minimum pay scale the union has set over the years.They have never kept up with the real cost of living. |
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Michael Douchette Member Posts: 675 |
posted 08 March 2000 08:38 PM
Earl, You're absolutely right! The road scale will keep you in breadcrumbs. And the "dark" thing is the "official" (harumph) terminology for scab sessions. (Guess I've been talking to Randy waaaaay too much...) Mikey ------------------ |
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John Macy Member Posts: 2290 |
posted 08 March 2000 09:18 PM
If you live in a major music market like Nashville, LA etc., being a member of the union is a must. Most small market unions don't do much for the player. In Denver, the union here pretty much works with the symphony, and with the exception of a few Trust Fund performances, is pretty useless. Most jingle work here is buyouts, though you can negotiate residuals with some of the companies. The label I work for cuts most of our tracks in Nashville, so we are signatory to the union. Like Mikey said, I get to hire all the great players there that I could never get if we were non-union. And believe me, I think they are worth every penny and more of the scale I pay them. On some of the projects we do we could fall under the limited pressing agreement, but we still pay master scale (though we still can't afford double scale guys). I think anybody hiring road players that would work for road scale would have a band that sounds like Lester Moran's band. PS--Earl, if a company goes belly up, there is probably no money to be collected--union or not. If you got stiffed by a viable company, and the union did not help, that would be another story. [This message was edited by John Macy on 08 March 2000 at 09:22 PM.] |
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Bill cole Member Posts: 694 |
posted 08 March 2000 09:24 PM
Well the union may be good for you folks who live around Nashburg but when you get away from there the union is like having a bad sickness around here the only people who denifet from union is the BPO musicians thats the BIG BIG buffalo band of high class musicans that look down there noses at all country musicians but pay your dues so they can put it in there pocket. Hell there aint one club in a hundred miles that is union. If you don't want to send your money to Pix 1 then send it over here to me better yet give it to Bob for the forum it will sure get put to better use |
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Earnest Bovine Member Posts: 4687 |
posted 08 March 2000 09:32 PM
Don't knock Lester Moran, John. He's sold a lot of records. [This message was edited by Earnest Bovine on 08 March 2000 at 09:37 PM.] |
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John Macy Member Posts: 2290 |
posted 08 March 2000 09:41 PM
I know, I'm one of them. Sure like the certified Plywood Record Award they got. |
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Marty Pollard Member Posts: 392 |
posted 08 March 2000 09:41 PM
quote:Surely there are great musicians who are not union members? I can understand, to a degree, the usefulness of, say, the electricians union; they assure training, code compliance, et cetera. But musicians acquire all their skill/training on their own. Union membership really seems to offer them no benefit unless they are already masters. But if they're already masters, it seems they wouldn't need the union. It just sounds like a racketeering type stranglehold to me. For example, I suppose I would understand if the union allowed its members to work where they choose as long as they pay in their 3%. I mean, who's really being hurt in that case? ------------------ |
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Ken Lang Member Posts: 2467 |
posted 08 March 2000 09:53 PM
I joined the AFM in 1959. Over the years it was of little benefit except for the road gigs with an agent and a job here and there. Most of my time was in local bar gigs etc and the union wouldn't bother the small time shmucks, or help them either. The times I filed a union gig, went thru their dance, they could care less. This was small town stuff, not big city. Even here in LA the union doesn't care about the little places or the little people. I have played Beverly Hills and similar, and there you must be a member. The next week you play a gig in a small club 30 miles away and nobody cares. I finally dropped out of the union after 37 years because it only cost me money and even events and announcements came 3 weeks after they were over. Like "Be sure and come to the Christmas party" came to my mailbox the third week of January. I still believe in the Musicians union and was proud to carry the card, to the point of not crossing a picket line here and there; but unless you are in the professional end where being a member is a "must", I don't see much value. Ken |
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Earl Erb Member Posts: 886 |
posted 08 March 2000 09:55 PM
John,let me elaborate about the record company that went belly up.The label was Caprice Records owned by Don Lewis and the show '60 Minutes' put him out of business. The money was there.Don went to prison for a year for mail fraud.The union was well aware of what was going down before we ever knew what was happening.We were right in the middle of a session when the crew of 60 Minutes came barging into the studio with Mike Wallace and our illustrious union president Johnny DeGeorge.What got Don into trouble was he was selling prerecorded tracks to new artists and charging them full price.Some people thought they should be paying for a live session and weren't getting it. |
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Gregg Galbraith Member Posts: 314 |
posted 08 March 2000 11:07 PM
Marty, One of the greatest benefits that we, as union members----doing union gigs---derive, is a pretty decent pension. Every time we go to work, the record company contributes 10% of our gross pay(over-and-above)to our pension fund, from which we will some day draw, proportionally. Aside from my own experience, I am pretty much "anti-union." How's THAT for hypocrisy!? [This message was edited by Gregg Galbraith on 09 March 2000 at 09:25 AM.] [This message was edited by Gregg Galbraith on 09 March 2000 at 01:50 PM.] |
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daynawills Member Posts: 652 |
posted 09 March 2000 12:06 AM
When the union crapped out in Vegas, it really hurt the quality of the music played there. Some of the finest musicians in the world could be found working the lounges for real good pay. Then, the casinos started a "budget" thing, and players began to undercut each other. The music really suffered. Now, most of the lounges are gone, replaced with keno and Bingo rooms. I was just in Reno, and they have put DANCE FLOORS in some of the LOUNGES. When I go to en entertainment mecca, I want to be entertained. I don't wanna pay a high price for a drink to watch a dance band that I can see cheaper at home. I do agree with those who are living in towns where music is not supported. The union is a joke. ------------------ |
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Dan Tyack Member Posts: 3552 |
posted 09 March 2000 01:04 AM
Gregg, I have the opposite experience from you. In general terms, I am pro union. Unions have done great things for working people in this country, especially in manufacturing, agriculture, education. For one thing, it prevented the country from being taken over by the clash between Fascism and Communism in the 30s that enthralled Europe (this is a discussion for Off Topic, I know). But I have had nothing good ever from the musicians union. I joined the San Jose local voluntarily when I was 18 (hoping to score gigs). But when I moved to Nashville, I had to resign from San Jose and rejoin the Nashville local ('transfer??? and let you avoid paying us the initiation fee even though you are a starving kid?') I had to do this to get my paycheck. Talk about right to work. Whoever heard of a union where you need to join to get paid from your employer? The only union live gigs I ever had were the opry and the Palomino. The Opry paid like $26 per show and the Pal $35 a night (for all night). So much for better pay. Union recording sessions in LA were nice. But really, why should I get $700+ for 5 minutes work because the session went over 5 minutes? The musicians union is set up to have a very small number of sessions players make a very large amount of money and pay a lot of commissions to the union. If you are a session player in LA, Nashville or NY, the union is great. It gives tangible benefits, otherwise it's a total waste. ------------------ |
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Jack Stoner Sysop Posts: 8119 |
posted 09 March 2000 02:33 AM
I belonged to the Harrisburg Pa local back in the 60's. You had to, or you didn't work in central PA. The union never did anything for the country musicians and scale was about the same as Nashville's "broadway wages". However, I've never been in the union since. If I had went the full time professional musician route I would have joined local 257 and not thought anything about it. However, I've always had a day job (don't quit your day job...) to put groceries on the table. I lived in Kansas City (Missouri) for 23 years and the high cost of initiation fees ($250 in 1974) kept me from joining. Plus that local was really only concerned with the full time symphony musicians. Any jobs that came out of that local went to a select few cronies (old time musicians) in the union management. |
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Jerry Hayes Member Posts: 3306 |
posted 09 March 2000 03:33 AM
When I first got out of the Army in the early 60's and started trying to get started in the Southern California music scene I joined local 47 and got a little work at places like the Pioneer Room and such. It started thinning out and the clubs started going non-union until most of them were that way. I moved to Wichita Falls, Texas in 1975 for a year or so and while there I joined the local in WF because you couldn't even set in at a jam session if you weren't a union member. When I moved back to LA in '76 the union was almost totally gone. The only union place I ever worked after that was the Foothill Club in Signal Hill (Long Beach). It's like someone else said. The pay there was quite a bit lower than the non union clubs. Since I've moved to Virginia my Texas local merged with the Dallas/Fort Worth local and I've dropped out totally! I don't even think we have one here unless it's for the Virginia Symphony. ------------------ |
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Ric Nelson Member Posts: 498 |
posted 09 March 2000 05:54 AM
I find it hard to give advice about the union since as with everything else in life, there is both good and bad to be said about it. If you do have a choice (in some cases you don't) one must look at the cost/benefit ratio. It's what works for you. To be honest, somedays I'm pro union and other days I'm not. To Jerry: |
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Richard Sinkler Member Posts: 2896 |
posted 09 March 2000 07:28 AM
I really have no opinion on The AFM being good or bad. I was a member for about 20 years. They did help us recover pay a couple of times. Also, if we wanted to play a non-union club, our local (510) here in the East Bay would let us with prior notification to them. They never refused us. We always made more than scale, and as long as we paid our work dues, everything was OK. I guess it was because of the lack of union clubs around here at the time. They were just glad we were working (and getting their money). ------------------ |
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Bill cole Member Posts: 694 |
posted 09 March 2000 07:45 AM
Well from the sounds of this post if we all move to Nasburg and Join the union we can all work for the BIG stars and make lot's of money and all of us will be doing the BIG sessions and making more money heck we will all have to Buy smi trucks to haul the money home and we will never have to work a day job again. We will all get a big fat retirement check every month. but I didn't hear any say anything about a Gold watch shucks. Now if you believe all this Bull S---- then I have a bribge going from Buffalo the Canada that I want to sell. Face it the union is Bull $hit |
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Marty Pollard Member Posts: 392 |
posted 09 March 2000 07:47 AM
quote:Wow! That ought to provide some useful insight for you, Larry. I can hardly wait till the AFM is operated on the same priciples as the NEA. "Results? We don't need no stinkin' results!!!" "Competency assessment? Assess this!!!" |
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Chick Donner Member Posts: 681 |
posted 09 March 2000 08:07 AM
I too have belonged to Local 257 in Nashville for 30 years this summer - while the musicians' union in northern Ohio has absolutely nothing to do with what little country music is available in northern Ohio, I find my membership helps in one very big area . . . my instrument/equipment insurance. The union's available coverage is second to none, and it costs me about one fifth what it would cost to get it from my commercial insurance agent. It's an all risk policy that pays replacement value . . . whatever value you placed on it when you signed up. I pay slightly over a hundred dollars for membership, slightly over a hundred dollars for the coverage. My own insurance agent tells me that the same coverage from him would probably run about seven hundred dollars a year. I consider my union membership saves me five hundred dollars per year . . . not bad!! |
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Larry Bell Member Posts: 4116 |
posted 09 March 2000 08:10 AM
quote: The operative word is CAN. If you don't join the union you CAN NOT. Many folks don't WANT TO. Many folks just DON'T HAVE WHAT IT TAKES. Why is it such a mystery that those who make their living recording or touring with the big stars HAVE TO JOIN THE UNION and may even benefit. It's a fact that is not negotiable. I haven't been a member for more than 25 years, but I haven't played music for a living in the interim either. From the stuff I read above, sounds like it's (still) a necessary evil, especially in the major music centers. LTB |
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Sandy Martin Member Posts: 84 |
posted 09 March 2000 08:15 AM
The union up here in the New England area may as well be non-existent. The only reason I am a member is to take advantage of the excellent musical instrument insurance that is available through the union. It's very inexpensive, covers all of your equipment, even in your car or van, even if you've stupidly left your stuff out on the sidewalk in front of a club after a gig (heard THAT story more than once!)...other than that, the union doesn't care where you play. No work dues, and the yearly dues here are only $125!!! Even counting that in with the cost of insurance, it's still an excellent deal. In 23+ years of playing, I have never had to use my card up here, ever. |
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Michael Johnstone Member Posts: 2535 |
posted 09 March 2000 08:40 AM
I've been in and out of the union in many cities all my life.Back east in the 60s,especially N.Y.C.,Cleveland,Philly,Detroit,etc.,you HAD to join-it was gangsters and leg breakers.Out here in L.A.,it has become a paper tiger populated by out-of-work trombone players.In all those years from coast to coast,it has never been anything but a financial drain on me.Still,like someone said,if you are doing big time jingles,TV work,etc.,you are forced to join because you can only get paid thru the union........the rest of us bottom feeders working "triple spec" sessions,beer joints and pay-to-play Hollywood showcases need not sweat it.Having said all that,if I stumbled into a scene where it made financial sense for ME,I'd join back up in a skinny minute. -MJ- |
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Boomer Member Posts: 400 |
posted 09 March 2000 08:46 AM
Long, long ago in the wilds of the African plains, cavemen found some discarded bones and began clicking them together in a rhythmic pattern, and these sounds were different and good; others seemed to enjoy these sounds and would give these cavemen pelts and arrowheads to perform this clicking of bones. Once while performing another caveman whom they had never seen came up to them with an empty human skull and demanded 3% of the pelts and arrowheads, else a strange and menacing curse would befall all of those who performed the clicking of bones. And that's how the musician's union came into being. Best, Boomer |
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Bill cole Member Posts: 694 |
posted 09 March 2000 10:42 AM
Well there really is a reason for joining the union insurence. Now I won't feel so bad to pay my dues. Honestly I am glad some one came up with the insurence cause I never thought of that.Great! Now Larry Bell please don't judge everyone's reason for not wanting to be on the road I been there done that and like my Family a lot better and I like to be able to feed them also. Now I won't judge your talent or lack of because it's not for me to say. Your the one who has to look in the mirror ever morning. But beffore you judge make Damn sure you are the best [This message was edited by Bill cole on 09 March 2000 at 10:43 AM.] [This message was edited by Bill cole on 09 March 2000 at 10:44 AM.] |
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Will Bartell Member Posts: 91 |
posted 09 March 2000 11:15 AM
Perhaps the union, in its present and past condition for the last thirty or forty years, is not the answer. But I have a different spin on this topic. In the late sixties, I was playing in a five piece rock band in college. We always made at least fifty bucks a man (and that in 1968 dollars.) Now thirty two years later, I'm playing gigs for fifty bucks a man (in 2000 dollars) What other line of work do you know, where wages have gone DOWN? Sure, we play steel 'cause we love it, but I feel like a fool working for peanuts, but in this small market area, that's all there is, or you don't play! Yes, there is the occasional casual where you make decent money; but the fact that there is a host of mediocre players willing to play for $25 is what hurts all of us. In the beginning, one of the more pure motives of unions was to protect against this kind of insult. |
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Larry Bell Member Posts: 4116 |
posted 09 March 2000 11:18 AM
Hold on a minute, Bill. What did I say that made you think I was judging your talent (or anyone else's for that matter)? I never mentioned talent. It's a fact that some people who are very capable choose not to record or go on the road with the major acts or to play the major venues that require union membership. It is also a fact that some musicians would not pass an audition with a major act -- for many reasons (talent being only one of many). I certainly didn't mean to imply ANYTHING about your talent or skill or your career choices. Sorry if I offended you. LTB |
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dblnk unregistered Posts: 4116 |
posted 09 March 2000 11:45 AM
Any organization is no better than its own members. As long as musicians are willing to stick it to each other, there's not much the union can do about it. That is the main crux of the problem and the main plight with musicians in general. There are too many musicians out there that are willing to do almost anything, including sticking it to another musician to "get discovered" or "get their foot in the door." I will be the first to admit that the union is far from being perfect, but I don't think it is to blame for every single misfortune we encounter. ------------------ |
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Howard Kalish Member Posts: 265 |
posted 09 March 2000 03:28 PM
I'm sure the union's value varies from place to place around the country, but I'm a big supporter of the union here in Austin. I've been in the union in one place or another for 30 years. Had to join back when I was in high school so my band could play some dates with Frank Zappa. Though Texas is a right-to-work state and the union has no teeth, they have helped myself and many others I know with a variety of problems - collecting on clubs that stiffed the band, helping road musicians when they get ripped off while far from home (paying gas and motel expenses, for instance), providing affordable instrument and equipment insurance and health insurance, making sure labels and movie companies pay the pension contribution and correct scale for sessions, demos, jingles, sound tracks, etc. Also, I usually get a few green sheet gigs (shows funded by the Musicians Union Trust Fund) per year, which gets close to covering my dues. Green sheet gigs are great for the community. These gigs are usually free out door concerts or gigs in hospitals and nursing homes. Very satisfying. Years ago when I was on the road, I liked to go to the local union halls 'cause all those out of work trombone players and their buddies would hang out there. I met many great old big band players at those halls. They had great stories and knowledge about their craft. Also, nationally, the union is still in there plugging for respect and descent pay for musicians. Just recently the Nashville union had to put some pressure on a Christian record label that was not filing union contracts and paying proper scale. Some of the big name session guys signed on to a boycott of that label. The label relented. Also, the union has been going to bat for Hispanic musicians who've been ripped off by labels in the same way many old R&B performers where stiffed for royalties and publishing years ago. The union has had real and tangible results that I'm sure makes life easier for the musicians they represent. Ofcourse, it's not all a bed of roses, but when you tally up the pros and cons I come up with a lot more in the pro column. |
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Bill cole Member Posts: 694 |
posted 09 March 2000 04:49 PM
And Larry I am sorry if I ofended you but union is a real sore subject around these parts but I think I will join for the insurence. But I rest assured it won't make me play any better there aint a lot of help for that have a good day [This message was edited by Bill cole on 09 March 2000 at 04:51 PM.] |
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Bobby Lee Sysop Posts: 14849 |
posted 10 March 2000 08:30 AM
The union around here doesn't do anything at all for working country/rock/pop musicians. They might do something for the symphony, and for their officers' bands. That's about it. After belonging for about 10 years I decided it was a waste of money and quit. I was a weekend warrior at the time - 2 or 3 gigs a week. I received no help from the union whatsoever. Scale was well below what we were willing to work for. I think it's a good thing to bring order to the music market in the recording industry, though. Otherwise, there would probably be a lot of haggling and real cut-throat price competition, and no pensions. It just doesn't work in a market like Santa Rosa. ------------------ |
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Donny Hinson Member Posts: 9192 |
posted 10 March 2000 04:43 PM
Are we done yet?  [This message was edited by Donny Hinson on 10 March 2000 at 04:44 PM.] |
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Lee Baucum Member Posts: 3201 |
posted 10 March 2000 07:24 PM
I believe I would rather take a 10% cut in pay than give 3% to the union. I agree with Marty. It sounds like racketeering to me. Lee, from South Texas |
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