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Study of Fourths
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The Steel Guitar Forum
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Study of Fourths
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This topic was originally posted in this forum: Wanted To Buy |
| Author | Topic: Study of Fourths |
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Sam Marshall Member Posts: 260 |
posted 03 March 2001 06:55 AM
Playing guitar at a jam session the other night, a fine young sax player (has a scholarship to Berklee) showed me some licks using sequences of fourths. Quite the hand breaker on guitar and very outside sounding. Has anyone ever spent an extended time studying them on steel? I hear a book by Ramon Ricker is good. Anyone ever seen it? I found it on sale at Jamey Aebersold's site. Regards, |
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Bob Hoffnar Member Posts: 4278 |
posted 03 March 2001 10:35 AM
There is a tune called "freedom Jazz dance" on the "Miles Smiles" album by the Miles Davis Quintet. It is a classic jazz workout in fourths. If you are into music studys the thing to look for is Quartal Harmony. It is a different way of dealing with harmonization. I use it pretty constantly. It is an essential part of playing any jazz and has been used by just about every arranger in most all forms of music for the last 50 years. Great way to help break out of that annoying whiney thing pedalsteel sound. Bob |
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John Paul Jones Member Posts: 305 |
posted 03 March 2001 05:01 PM
One night while playing lead guitar with Gary Carpenter he hit a lick that tore me up. When I asked him about it he said the lick was simply 4ths. During the rest of the night he played several more licks based on 4ths (maybe for my benefit). They sure sound great when done right. John Paul Jones |
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CHIP FOSSA Member Posts: 2536 |
posted 04 March 2001 02:54 AM
I have a few of Herby Wallace's tabs/tapes and in a couple of places he has what he refers to as whole tone scales. SAY: FRETS 4,6,8,10,12 STRINGS 6,7,8 [E9th] Start on 4th fret, pick triplet roll 6-7-8. Thanks all |
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Rick Schmidt Member Posts: 1596 |
posted 04 March 2001 03:38 AM
Bob H. is right about Quartal Harmony and "Freedom jazz dance"....I guarantee that learning that tune on the steel will keep you busy for awhile. Besides being kind of a knuckle buster, it's a brain twister also. Inside and outside and all around the tonal center. Also, building chords made up of 4rths really creates a different open sounding harmony feel. Rather than just making a chord from the root up, you can approach it using strong interval structures inside the chord..like 4ths, 5ths, and 9ths... Check out the Lydian Chromatic Concept by Geo. Russell |
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Bob Hoffnar Member Posts: 4278 |
posted 04 March 2001 09:02 AM
Chip, The whole tone scale is a cool and useful thing but is a different thing than what we are talking about. I will post some examples of common uses for quartal harmony when I get some time later tonight. Bob |
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John Steele Member Posts: 2469 |
posted 04 March 2001 02:36 PM
So What ?
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P Gleespen Member Posts: 751 |
posted 05 March 2001 05:00 AM
(outtake from the recently discovered lyrics to Miles Davis' So What) You got some mustard on your shirt. No, but seriously folks... What Bob and Rick said about Freedom Jazz Dance is the truth. In fact, that album is chock full of quartal harmony in Herbie Hancocks comping. That sort of thing really lays out nicely on standard guitar tuning, but it's there on steel too. |
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CHIP FOSSA Member Posts: 2536 |
posted 05 March 2001 05:21 AM
Yeah, Bob, get those examples out. Thanks. chipsahoy |
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Dirk B Member Posts: 454 |
posted 05 March 2001 06:27 AM
Wasn't McCoy Tyner's playing completely made of fourths (stacked fourths)? Hey, P. Gleespen, I like them "So what" lyrics! I guess since Miles wasn't known for his sense of humor, he didn't want to wreck his image by releasing that version.... [This message was edited by Dirk B on 05 March 2001 at 06:28 AM.] |
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Bob Hoffnar Member Posts: 4278 |
posted 05 March 2001 09:42 AM
Here are a couple examples out of millions: Jazz: Classical: Pop: It is used constantly in pop music these days. All those sus chords used as transitions. On a C major chord if the bass player plays a D note you get a pile of 4ths if you line the notes up right. Also in a dom 7th chord if you raise the 3rd a half step you get another pile of 4ths. This obscures the tonal center and gives you more musical options that do not sound too dissonant. If you just want to use a couple riffs made out of 4ths you are cheating yourself out of a great way to deal with music in general. You won't get out of the ever shrinking little ghetto pedalsteel lives in by monkeying a couple riffs. Bob [This message was edited by Bob Hoffnar on 05 March 2001 at 09:47 AM.] |
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Jim Cohen Member Posts: 8715 |
posted 05 March 2001 10:45 AM
quote:Kinda trips off the tongue, doesn't it? |
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Hal Merrill Member Posts: 6 |
posted 09 March 2001 09:16 AM
Hey I think it's great that you guys are getting into this stuff. I was tempted to learn Freedom Jazz Dance a few years ago and wondered if I would have time in my life to actually get it down; but the only recorded version I have is Phil Woods. Then I got side-tracked into a study of chromaticism and now with how to effectly play ballads without it sounding totally depressing. The challenge of using fourths as melody is rather baffling as yet. I wish you all the best! It's great to read about some others getting into modern jazz. Hal Merrill |
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Dave Van Allen Member Posts: 5369 |
posted 09 March 2001 12:03 PM
quote: how might one apply the fourths harmonic concept to "In the Ghetto" by Elvis Presley? |
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Harry Hess Member Posts: 1131 |
posted 11 March 2001 12:07 AM
I have a jazz guitar instruction book called "Monster Chops for jazz guitar" by Jack Grassel, published by Columbia Pictures Publications (1984). It's all "Technique In Fourths". Any steel player who reads or also plays guitar (and reads) could make great use of it. It's a good book. Regards, |
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Sam Marshall Member Posts: 260 |
posted 12 March 2001 07:49 PM
Thanks for the info on the Monster Chops book. So, no one has seen the book by Ramon Riker on fourths. There is also a book by him at Jamey Aebersol's site covering topics augmented. Does the Monster Chops book show some fingerings? The jumps are a bear when you have to change position. Sam in AZ |
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P Gleespen Member Posts: 751 |
posted 13 March 2001 04:38 AM
Hi Sam, That Ramone Ricker book is highly recommended. It's been a while since I've seen it, but it's good stuff. Of course, it's all in what you do with it. ...and I don't think that the Ricker book has fingerings. I think the Grassel book does, though I could be (and often am!) wrong. |
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Harry Hess Member Posts: 1131 |
posted 19 March 2001 06:34 PM
Monster Chops has exercises or pieces in different positions. While there is no tab, it does have fingering indicaters. Sorry, I didn't look at this thread in a while. Regards, |
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