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Chalker, Whitewing, Garrett and Bobby Black?
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Chalker, Whitewing, Garrett and Bobby Black?
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This topic was originally posted in this forum: Wanted To Buy |
| Author | Topic: Chalker, Whitewing, Garrett and Bobby Black? |
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Jason Odd Member Posts: 2665 |
posted 06 March 2001 11:58 PM
What group contained (at seperate times) the talents of Curly Chalker, Pee Wee Whitewing, Bobby Black and Bobby Garrett? The Western Cherokees. Man, does anyone know if anything has been issued on CD by this group, have any of their sides shown up on compilations, anything? The group seems to have it's roots in a couple of Texan outfits, notably Bob Manning And His Riders Of The Silver Sage, with bandleader Robert Lawrence 'Blackie' Crawford (guitar, vocals), Pee Wee Reid (bass), and Billy Gray (guitar, vocals), all played in this band circa 1948-49. They did sessions with Lefty, but if you look below, Blackie was only on the last one the group did. June 1, 1951 Jim Beck Studio - Dallas, Texas Producer: Don Law June 1, 1951 Jim Beck Studio - Dallas, Texas Producer: Don Law October 19, 1951 ACA Studio - Houston, Texas Producer: Don Law Curly of course split for Hank Thompson in 1951, and he played on material like Hank's classic signature song, ‘The Wild Side of Life’ issued in 1952. Thompson had recorded the song during a Ken Nelson produced Hollywood session on December the 11th, 1951. The session crew included Hank (guitar, vocals), Joe ‘Big Red’ Hayes (fiddle), ‘Little Red’ Hayes (fiddle), Bill Carson (guitar), Billy Gray (guitar), Curly Chalker (steel guitar), Gil Baca (piano), Billy Stewart (bass) and most likely Kermit Baca on drums The interesting thing is that the group had heaps of line-up changes after this.. For their two Coral label sessions in late 1951 and early 1952, rec Fort Worth. Vocals were supplied by Crawford, Johnny Rector, and Danny Brown. Some releases only credited the vocalist and not the WC's. Chalker was gone by then and Wayma "Pee Wee" Whitewing played steel. The guitarist was Tony 'Tawnee' Hall, with Les Bryan (piano), John Anderson (bass)and Jimmy Dennis (drums. Guitarist Hall later split of Lefty before dying in late 1952, Blackie went on to add Big Red and Little Red Hayes from Hank's Brazos Valley River Boys, plus another Hayes brother Leon Hayes, who played bass fiddle. Bobby Black replaces Pee Wee Whitewing (who of course replaces Curly Chalker in Hank Thompson's outfit), vocalist Rusty Walker joins for a time in 1952, but for their for Starday recordings in 1953 the group consisted of: Blackie Crawford (vocals,lead guitar), Bob Heppler (fiddle, bass, vocals), Jimmy Dennis (drums), Robert Shivers (fiddle), Bobby Black (steel), Milburn 'Burney' Annett (piano), Luther Nalley (rhythm guitar, tenor banjo), and Buck Crawford (bass). Then in 1953, Black was replaced by Corlue Bordelon, then Bobby Garrett, then Jimmy Biggar (aka Bigger), Kenneth 'Little Red' Hayes came on to play fiddle, replacing Shivers, Joe 'Red' Hayes also worked with them from time to time, as did Freddie Franks, while bandleader Blackie Crawford left his group. Sonny Burns joined on lead guitar, Nalley was fired by the end of 1953, Herman McCoy joined on guitar for a brief time, by early 1954, there might have been two version of the group (both without Blackie too?), one led by Sonny Burns, sometimes with George Jones, then a new Starday act, and another version of throw-togethers that Jack Starnes would hire. In the end the Western Cherokees became Ray Price's Cherokee Cowboys. Crawford had quit the band, and Tommy Hill took the outfit to Nashville to join Price in August 1954, with Jimmy Bigger (steel guitar), Bernie Annett on piano. Annett, may be Burny Annette of the WCs.?? Anyone know anything about these guys, if any of their sides are on comps, if Blackie is still with us?..etc. |
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Jason Odd Member Posts: 2665 |
posted 10 March 2001 03:47 PM
Anyone? |
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Bobby Lee Sysop Posts: 14849 |
posted 10 March 2001 04:09 PM
Bobby Black in 1953? He was just a kid! Are you sure it's the same Bobby Black that we know today? |
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Chris Bauer Member Posts: 1195 |
posted 10 March 2001 06:57 PM
Jason, No need to apologize for the length of your post/question. Geeeez, seems like we usually learn more form your questions than from most other peoples' answers!!! |
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Dan Dowd Member Posts: 533 |
posted 10 March 2001 07:58 PM
Is it possible that the reference to Bobby Black is supposed to be Bobby White. He played with Hank around the same time as Pee Wee. |
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Jason Odd Member Posts: 2665 |
posted 10 March 2001 10:13 PM
Our Bobby Black from Shorty Joe & The Red Rock Canyon Cowboys (1951-1952), where he replaced Pee Wee Whitewing, was about 18 years old when in 1952 he got the call to replace Whitewing in the band of Blackie Crawford. When Bobby Black was asked to join the Brazos River Valley Boys (Hank's group), he's been in Texas close to seven months and was a vet of the local bar scene, as the Western Cherokees did their own gigs, played as the Starday house band and backed Webb Pierce as his group for a time. Pee Wee Whitewing had left Hank, and a group which had twin steels, the other being Bob White, now Hank was looking to replace Pee Wee with Bobby Black, so he could keep the twin steel thing happening, but he would have also had the cool distinction of having Bob Black and Bob White as his twin steel attack, now that's just too cool. Bobby Black returned to Northern CA formed a group with his brother Larry and Pee Wee, sadly Pee Wee returned to Hank, (good news for Hank fans) and Bobby with his brother Larry went through a series of groups, which ultimately led to Bobby joining Commander Cody & The Lost Planet Airmen in 1971. |
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Mitch Drumm Member Posts: 299 |
posted 10 March 2001 10:16 PM
It is the Bobby Black. I believe he is the same age as Vance, so you do the math--he woulda been about 20 in 1953. I have talked to him briefly about his tenure with Crawford. Some of ths story might be in the liner notes to one of his albums. All i can remember is that he told me that Crawford's band member Bob Hepler, who also recorded for Starday around the same time, was also Blackie's bus driver. The band recorded maybe 10 sides for Starday, and i am not sure if Bobby is on all of them. One track is "Cherokee Steel Guitar", an instrumental. A track or two, most likely "Stop Boogie Woogie" may have appeared on a European bootleg LP. As usual, the most intense interest in early American country music is from other continents. Pee Wee Whitewing's stuff with the Western Cherokees on Coral is exceptional. They were a helluva band. I don't think Blackie is still with us. Jason--i see you have been reading the archives of a certain mailing list. [This message was edited by Mitch Drumm on 10 March 2001 at 10:18 PM.] [This message was edited by Mitch Drumm on 10 March 2001 at 10:20 PM.] |
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Jason Odd Member Posts: 2665 |
posted 10 March 2001 10:49 PM
Mitch, I admit I'm a shark, patroling and snatching stuff from everywhere, if there's a new site, I tend to sniff it out pretty quick. But yeah, I saw some of that on the Hillbilly Yahoo list, which is quite interesting and leaves me for dead when it comes to sheer research. I was suprised that no-one thought of the Hayes brothers working with Hank Thompson, but then it's not like a lot of info on the Hankster is out there unless you buy one of the big box sets. also is anyone is interested, there is a very cool Left Frizzel website with his complete discography, although a few sessions are sketchy, it's quite sensational for finding out who played on the early stuff. |
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Dan Tyack Member Posts: 3552 |
posted 11 March 2001 12:11 PM
Bobby only looks 50, he really is old enough to have been there. ------------------ |
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Jason Odd Member Posts: 2665 |
posted 11 March 2001 03:42 PM
At 30, there are people who make me feel a little like I missed the boat, but that's only by comparision. Young superpickers are always a shock when you realise what they have done in their lifetime, Marty Stuart, Bobby Black, Ricky Skaggs are prime examples of people who have been around seemingly forever, but of course were so young at the time that ot seems almost weird until you start working out the math, these guys were all so young, and started picking with pro bands when they were teens. |
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Earnest Bovine Member Posts: 4687 |
posted 11 March 2001 04:22 PM
I agree. If you haven't done it by age 19, then you will never make a mark in this world. We will all be judged by what we were as teenagers. |
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Jason Odd Member Posts: 2665 |
posted 11 March 2001 04:32 PM
Well, I tend to think as most guys as grown up Frat-boy types, is that what you mean E.B? |
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Tim Rowley Member Posts: 957 |
posted 11 March 2001 07:55 PM
Hi gang! On the teenager subject, it is a well-known and established fact of the business that McAuliffe, Wiggins, Byrd, Helms, Day, Emmons, Garrett, Black, Koefer, Murphy, and probably a score of others turned pro while still in their teens. These young dudes cooked up some great sounds and some HOT instrumental work which still stands today, partially due to all this adolescent "pep" and the outstanding creative abilities of a non-cluttered mind. With steel guitar being the lifetime instrument that it is, my hat is off to those who get started young while they can learn their chops at a rapid rate, then stay at it without becoming disillusioned or disenchanted with the passage of time. Actually the principle of starting young and sticking to it applies to most callings in life. And here I am wallowing around at my age (103) and wondering if I'll ever be able to play well enough to make a decent living, if you can call this "living". Not that a person can't get started as a musician a bit later in life and still make a significant musical impact, but youth (and youthfulness) is a commodity of great advantage in this business! Are you listening, Abraham? Tim R. |
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Jason Odd Member Posts: 2665 |
posted 11 March 2001 08:12 PM
Some of the finest and wildest rockabilly was actually recorded by older artists who were Hank Williams type perforers who went and stunk up their sound real fine with some crazed uptempo hillbilly boogie, but young hot pickers, amn they are hard to beat. |
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Gary Walker Member Posts: 1446 |
posted 11 March 2001 08:35 PM
While living in the Bay Area in 1953 I watched Bobby Black with his brother Larry play some of the most knocked out music that a young boy could fathom on the San Francisco program that you are refering to. I got the chance to ask Bobby about it in '92 when he came to Porterville, CA with Billy Jo Spears and it was a real kick to get to tell Bobby how much he made an impression on a teenage boy that was falling in love with the steel being a new fan of the great Speedy West at that time, Gary |
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Jason Odd Member Posts: 2665 |
posted 11 March 2001 08:52 PM
Gary, when the Black brothers were reunited in Northern CA in 1953, Bobby and Larry were also working with bandleader Big Jim DeNoone, as well as the West Coast All Stars with Pee Wee Whitewing. While they had their gigs with the West Coast All Stars, they also played with Big Jim’s band at Napradek Hall, and also appeared on The Hoffman Hayride television show with DeNoone in the show’s house band, known as The Hoffman Hayride Gang. The group that played with DeNoone at Napredak Hall, included Bobby, on a five pedal Bigsby steel, Larry Black (lead guitar), Jack Greenback (drums), Sammy Davis (Clifford) on guitar, Frank Hitchens (string bass) and Big Jim himself on vocals, fiddle and various string instruments. I think the Hoffman Hayride show got renamed at some later point, something to do with Cottonseed Clark, but I'd have to look that up to be sure. |
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Bill C. Buntin Member Posts: 642 |
posted 12 March 2001 04:37 AM
Jason, You mentioned the Hayes bros. with Hank Thompson. I've got a Hank Thompson album from the 70's called "Back in the Swing of Things". He did a song that the lyrics state something like "I'm looking back to those Big Band days of mine, when me and Red and Round Boy, one time we sounded fine. Cause Reddy played the violin and Round Boy played the Bass and me I picked guitar and did the Singing." I new about Red Hayes, but would you have an idea who Hank was referring to as "Round Boy" the bass player. I meant to ask Hank the last time he was here in town, but I didn't get a chance to see him that trip. Regards and thanks for a great topic. |
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Jason Odd Member Posts: 2665 |
posted 12 March 2001 05:11 AM
Round Boy, geez you've got me there, although it seems so familiar? I'm tempted to get the Hank Thompson box set just for those sort of details, like who else worked with the band in the 1940s, 1950s, etc... of course the music is just so fine! |
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Bill Cunningham Member Posts: 381 |
posted 12 March 2001 10:57 AM
Check out Live at The Golden Nugget. Memory says Hank names the bass player and refers to him as "Round Boy" when he introduces the band. Bill ------------------ |
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Gary Walker Member Posts: 1446 |
posted 12 March 2001 04:46 PM
Jason, thanks for bringing back old memories. Country was very young in the Bay Area at the time. I listened to Cottonseed Clark on KVSM the only country station around at the time and it was at the base of the San Mateo bridge. Also Dude Martin had a show with Sue Thompson and Merle Travis was a regular for a spell. It was those things including Big Jim's program that got this teen boy interested in country music. KVSM used Jimmy Bryant and Speedy West and of course, Chet Atkins instrumentals as spotlight tunes that today, are never considered in the way stations program now, Thanks, Gary |
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Jason Odd Member Posts: 2665 |
posted 12 March 2001 08:20 PM
Gary, the Bobby Black album 'California Freedom,' issued by Tom Bradshaw in 1978, has some wonderful bandstand pics of the Hoffman Hayride Gang (Hoffman Easy-Vision Television), Vern Orr, Bobby Black, Tex Neal, Heck Luperini, Bill Carter, Big Jim DeNoon, Dino Bendenelli and Bill Hendricks, while Cottonseed Clark, Merle Travis, Tommy Duncan and the Cotton twins all make appearences with the cast, how cool is that? Hank Penny used to work on Dude Martin's show, in fact Billy Strange and Benny Garcia where with him at that point. |
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David Wright Member Posts: 1863 |
posted 13 March 2001 07:51 AM
My Dad Chuck Wright was the steel player with Jimmy Rivers at the time of the California Hay Ride, They shot it from many different locations in Ca... ------------------ Sierra S-12 9&7 |
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Jason Odd Member Posts: 2665 |
posted 17 March 2001 05:39 PM
David, I've been meaning to email you and ask if there's been any interviews or article on or with your dad, regarding his picking or his innovative steel building with Wright Custom (since 1949?), Sierra, etc. ? Also, I wasn't going to post the interview that Pee Wee Whitewing did for Tom Bradshaw, but it's online, so I figure we all can have a look. [This message was edited by Jason Odd on 17 March 2001 at 06:50 PM.] |
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Jim Bob Sedgwick Member Posts: 1234 |
posted 17 March 2001 09:12 PM
"Round Boy" refers to Billy Stewart, who was Hank's Bass Player for awhile. He was an indian (don't know what tribe), but he hadn't missed too many meals, ergo the "Round Boy" title. I don't know where he is today, and did not know him personally. He apparently was quite a character with the Brazos Valley Boys. It's a shame Hank Thompson isn't on line to enlighten us. |
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Jason Odd Member Posts: 2665 |
posted 18 March 2001 06:49 AM
Thanks Jim Bob, that's very helpful. Makes me wonder if he was related to Dusty Stewart who played steel for Hank T. in the late 1940s. Billy was in the group for the 1951 session I mentioned (above in the first post), of course the session dates only mention the picker by their real names, well mostly. Thanks. |
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Bill C. Buntin Member Posts: 642 |
posted 19 March 2001 08:29 PM
Jim Bob, Jason, Thanks for the info. I'll try to remember to ask my friend here who is close to Hank, to see if he could get Hank interested in the Forum. That would be great to get him on line. Growing up in TX. it has always been a dream of mine to be a "Brazos Valley Boy" even if only one time. Alas I fear the list is long for guys in line for a job with Hank. I'm not sure if he does many shows where he brings in a Big Band anymore. I don't know how much Hank is touring if any. Last I heard he had some pretty serious health problems. Hank can still "DO IT". I saw him about a year ago. If anything I thought he was better than ever. |
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Jason Odd Member Posts: 2665 |
posted 19 March 2001 08:48 PM
It would be interesting, although we don't get much in the way of singers here. I know there are some (Dayna Wills is a fine example), but this is still mainly a steel forum with some folks like me, and mainly steel players and guitarists. Thinking of Hank Thompson, he doesn't have a regular band anymore. |
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Gary Walker Member Posts: 1446 |
posted 19 March 2001 11:36 PM
Jason, in about 1963 Chalker did some session work for Thompson that was super, "Stirring Up The Ashes" and a couple of others that I bought then. I don't think Curly was in his band at the time but did the sessions, Gary |
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Jody Carver Member Posts: 7455 |
posted 25 March 2001 09:40 AM
Jason You amaze me with your knowledge,,,I am enjoying your topic & the input from all those who have replied,,,,amazing information you have . It is a pleasure to sit and read these comments from your "forumites" as well as the info you have to offer.... At your young age ,,,you certainly have done your homework....btw Bill Carson whom you mention in one of your stories has been a Fender guy as long as i can remember,,,if fact I posted something trying to get in touch with him. Enjoy your super info,,,,,,Jody.I m glad Im not the only "old guy" out there that remembers all those things you post,,,I feel like I have company getting "more mature" The more I read your topic gets me off of those long winded "boring stories of mine" It does give me a break besides enjoyment reading your topic,,,,,keep em coming... [This message was edited by Jody Carver on 25 March 2001 at 09:45 AM.] |
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Jason Odd Member Posts: 2665 |
posted 25 March 2001 06:50 PM
Thanks Jody, I'll try and keep things interesting, I really enjoy the forum and find myself popping in to check what's going on, quite reguarly. |
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Al Marcus Member Posts: 7471 |
posted 25 March 2001 07:51 PM
If I remember correctly, I was teaching music in Santa Rosa, Ca in 1965 and went to see Hank Thompson, as I was told Curly Chalker was on steel. I got there and Bert Riverra was there. Apparently Curly was back with Hank temporarily and Bert told me that he had just replaced Curly and was nervous as all get out. It showed in his playing too that night. But he made out allright...al |
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chas smith Member Posts: 3168 |
posted 27 March 2001 11:28 AM
quote: Einstein was 25 when he published the theory of relativity. Personally, I look old, but I've maintained my immaturity. Bobby Black is one of the nicest people you will meet in this lifetime. |
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