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Union or "right to work"
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This topic was originally posted in this forum: Wanted To Buy |
| Author | Topic: Union or "right to work" |
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Miguel e Smith Member Posts: 500 |
posted 11 June 2001 07:28 AM
Unless you live and work (as a player)in one of the major recording cities (Nashville, L.A., N.Y, Muscle Shoals, etc...), many of you probably don't have a need of the "union" (A.F.M. or American Federation of Musicians). You might not even have a union presence at all. Although I'm still a union member and have a personal need to be, I moved from Nashville to a large city that I only recently discovered has an AFM office. It's primarily for the use of the symphony and I get the impression they do little else. The studios here don't normally know what an AFM time card even looks like. Yes, Arizona is a right to work state, but so is Tennessee. Anytime the "union" is mentioned here, I get a lot of questions, mostly centered around "what is the benefit". I have a pretty good idea where this discussion might end up, but I'm curious as to what anyone might think...the pros and cons and maybe the ideal situation. |
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Larry Bell Member Posts: 4116 |
posted 11 June 2001 08:47 AM
Hey, Mikey -- long time no 'see' I'm gonna blow your cover: Folks: this is Mike Smith, one of the finest musicians (who happens to also play steel guitar) on the planet. You may remember him from the Larry Gatlin band many years ago. (now I've done it) I know you have played music for a living and I understand that this is a bit different for the semi-pro or weekend musician. I have a friend who is a pipefitter. The union to which he belongs actively works to ensure that members are employed. In my experience, the AFofM was always there with their hand out to take their 'cut' of ANY gigs I had booked myself, including any that an agent had booked, adding to the agent's cut with very little added value (IMHO). WARNING: HOT BUTTON ISSUE As a part-time musician, I have not been a member since the late 1960s. As a result, I've been denied a couple of gigs and sessions, but have not really suffered much from not being a member. The union may provide valuable services to the full-time, professional musician (and I'm sure some of them will weigh in on this topic), but my personal opinion is that the AFofM does little for the 'weekend warrior', who works a 'day job' and often receives many of the benefits from that employer and may even be paid a wage that is commensurate with their abilities and that keeps up with inflation. I know if I had to live on what I make playing music I would have starved long ago making the same wage in 2001 that I made in 1975. The union appears to have done little to benefit the part-time musician. That's my perspecitive, anyway. LTB [This message was edited by Larry Bell on 11 June 2001 at 08:51 AM.] |
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RickRichtmyer Member Posts: 2522 |
posted 11 June 2001 08:49 AM
I was a member of the DC Federation of Musicians for a number of years and later resigned from that local and joined the Hagerstown, MD local. At the time, Frederick, MD (in that jurisdiction) had a rather ambitious business agent and most of the clubs, even the roadhouse type places were pretty solidly union. Somewhere along the line in the late 70's they added a surtax on top of the existing dues. At that point about 90% of us quit the union and as far as a I know a union presence other than for shows, orchestras, etc., has pretty much vanished from the area. ------------------ |
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Bobby Lee Sysop Posts: 14849 |
posted 11 June 2001 09:22 AM
I was a member of the AFM here in Santa Rosa for years. They didn't do much except collect my dues. I did a few trust fund gigs, but they didn't pay very well. I quit after about 5 years because at the bottom line, it wasn't cost-effective. Before that, I was a member in San Francisco (it was required for some of the jobs I did down there). Someone in the local used my SS# on a contract, resulting in me being dinged for taxes on a job I didn't work. ------------------ |
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Bob Hoffnar Member Posts: 4278 |
posted 11 June 2001 11:39 AM
I am a union member in NYC. I joined because I had to. It can be a good thing if you get enough on the card work but other wise it is mostly pointless. I have very mixed feelings about the local here. They exist to collect money. They sometimes collect money for me that otherwise I would never see. Other times they just collect money from me. Bob |
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chas smith Member Posts: 3168 |
posted 11 June 2001 12:16 PM
I have a like/hate relationship with my union. I was IATSE when I worked on the 'lots', Paramount, Warner Bros., Disney, etc. If you're not a member, you don't get to work there, it's as simple as that. I've worked union and non-union shows, anyone who works is going to be exploited, at least with the union I got paid better. I'm also AFM local 47. For just playing around in clubs, there doesn't seem to be any advantage to being a member. Where it's imperative to be a member is doing sessions on film scores. I pay an annual dues and the union takes a cut of everything I make as a session player and someone gets a cut of my residual checks. Because the union gets a cut, they're motivated to insure that I get as much as possible and track how much is due to me, something I'm not capable of doing. For this I don't mind paying a fee. There are no residual checks for non-union dates. If you think you or I don't deserve to be paid better for what we do or you think you're getting more than you're worth, you have a personal problem. The money is there and if they don't pay me, they just keep it for themselves. A few years back I had a call to play on film with a composer that I wanted to work with, but it was non-union and for a very well known company, two red flags. When it was over, I turned in my hours and waited fr the check. Typically, there's a 6 week time lag between the job and the payment, so the money can sit in the 'float'. Well 6 months later, there's still no check. This company, for one, is notorious for not paying if they don't feel like it, and they have a phalanx of lawyers to guard the castle. I eventually got paid because earlier that same year I had played on two of their union films with another composer who was a favorite. I don't think for a minute that the unions are altruistic, my experience is, it's worse without them. |
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Larry Bell Member Posts: 4116 |
posted 11 June 2001 01:24 PM
chas (and others) Are you allowed to play non-union gigs as a union member or is that still against the union rules????? I seem to recall (LONG ago) that members would jeopardize their standing in the union by playing on the same stage with non-union musicians or playing non-union shows. Is that still true? LTB ------------------ |
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Donny Hinson Member Posts: 9192 |
posted 11 June 2001 02:47 PM
As far as I know Larry, that's still true. Many years ago, the AFM had a strong presence in this area. If you were a REAL musician, there were benefits. (Note---most musicians still define a "real musician" as one who can sight-read). But the costs kept going up, and the benefits kept going down, and most players simply dropped out because of the money and the "rules". Players would often go to small towns to join because the membership was a fraction of what it cost in the big cities. You couldn't play on stage with a non-union musician, etc.. Union wages were determined by "ratings" on a scale from "A"(highest) to "E"(lowest). The BEST Country Music club in Baltimore was a "D" club! Back then, people in general looked down on Country performers (they still do...unless they're millionaire Country performers). If there was any form of solidarity between part-time musicians, it went out the window when Karaoke came on the scene. Playing venues around here went from hundreds to less than a dozen. And, with hardly any work...who can afford dues? I believe in unions...(I belong to one on my day-job). But some unions become like the government, and continue to take more and more while offering less and less. When membership declines, the funding of the union does too, and it becomes a mere "facade" which only a few choose to deal with. Unions have their strength in numbers, and when numbers are small, so is the power of the union. Of all the players I know (hundreds), I doubt I could name 10 who are union members. |
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Herby Wallace Member Posts: 1346 |
posted 11 June 2001 02:58 PM
I don't post opinions very often, but this is a sore spot for me, so I just want to add a couple of cents worth. I am 54 years old and I joined the Musicians Union in Chattanooga, TN when I was 16. I have seen and experienced many changes in the music business over the years. I personally like many other musicians feel that pay scales for the most part are completely ridiculous. The average club pay in this part of the country 30 years ago was $50.00 per night and now you are lucky if you can get $50.00 in a club. Now don't get me wrong, I haven't played clubs in years because I think it is ridiculous to play for this amount of money. There are several reasons for the low pay scales. In most cases, I blame musicians because there are so many players who will play for almost any amount of money just because they want to play. In many cases, it's an ego thing and the money doesn't seem to matter. Now back to the issue about the Musicians Union. In my opinion, I saw the period where pay scales started either not going up or staying the same, and in this part of the country it seemed to happen when many musicians started dropping out so the union was losing strength and also being in Tennessee the right to work law to me hurt instead of helping. In other words, it seems now that anything goes. To me it would be just like working a minimum wage job and all of a sudden your employer said well we can only pay you $3.00 and you should feel lucky to get it! I probably shouldn't ramble on about this, but it is getting to the point where very few musicians can make a living playing music anymore. Anyway, for what it's worth I am for the Union and I think we would all make more money if we worked together to keep the pay scales where they ought to be. Of course, I know it probably won't happen. Herby Wallace ------------------ |
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Al Marcus Member Posts: 7471 |
posted 11 June 2001 03:15 PM
I have been a Musician's Union member for 55 years. Local 4, Cleveland , Ohio. I played union clubs there when I was non-union and the better clubs, evan though they wanted my playing, had to let me go. The Unions were much stronger in those days. So I realized that if I wanted to work in the better clubs, I would have to join the Union. Bobby Lee, I was also a member of Local 295 in Santa Rosa, Ca.I worked quite a few Union jobs there. And I did get residual checks for quite a while, although small ones. LOL. I didn't mind the work dues as long as I was getting the work. So what goes around, comes around.....al I would say if you are serious about your music, then it pays to join the Union. Especially for Recording Sessions or Movie work, etc... |
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jim miller unregistered Posts: 7471 |
posted 11 June 2001 03:32 PM
Let me say right up front; I am pro union labor. Had it not been for the Union I would not be in the position I am in now. I was an over the road truck driver for 30 years and was able to get out of it at 54 years old, with a good pension because of the Teamsters. Now having said that, I have also been a member of the musicians union for 39 years and in that time they got me one gig for which I was paid " scale " ( 25.00 ), at the time, 70s, and I was making 50.00 in the clubs. From the $25.00 was taken $3.50 work dues. I played the Jamboree in Wheeling and it was "scale", $25.00 and out of that came the work dues. Other than the one gig they got me, they have never done anything else. Hey! I got a card tho boys. The main reason you can play with non union members now is because the Federal Gov'mint made it illegal for the unions to come into a place and card the people on the band stand. Jim Miller I'D RATHER BE STEELIN' |
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John Steele Member Posts: 2469 |
posted 11 June 2001 03:33 PM
I've been a member of Local #180, Ottawa, Ontario, Canada for about 12 years. I should first qualify my comments by saying that playing is not my sole income, so my opinions may be coloured slightly. Trade unions are not my favourite entity, but it seems the professional musicians may be more in need of a union than alot of other trades, as per Herby's comments above. Recent very public statements by the likes of Courtney Love bemoan the fact that singers do not enjoy the same union benefits as players - the "benefits" are very tangible to some, but perhaps less so for the weekend warrior instrumentalists. The Ottawa local consists mainly of the symphony cats, the military and government band types, and the jazz musicians. I'm not legit, I'm just one of the jazz musicians.  These guys get treated even worse than the club scene country players, believe it or not. For them, and for the recording guys, it's a very important thing. Yes, you pay dues; but if I pick up one or two MTPF gigs, my dues are covered. The other thing I wanted to mention is, sometimes I think it's easy for long time members of the union to look at the situation and say "What does the union do for me?". Less so for a new member. It's easy to forget all the networking, connections you've made, and union gigs you've done over the years. When I was a new and skeptical member, one of the old guard simply said to me: "You'll be hanging with a better class of musicians." Many years later, I understand what he meant. The union vs. non-union thing was mentioned earlier... in this area, there isn't much pressure that way. While you still can't put a non-union player on a union gig, a union player can take a non-union gig without fear of being in trouble... with some limitations. (some of them geographical and some common sense respect). Your mileage may vary, depending on the geography. My 2 cents. Sorry, didn't mean to write a novel. -John
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Jack Stoner Sysop Posts: 8119 |
posted 11 June 2001 03:56 PM
I was a member of the Harrisburg, Pa local in the mid 60's. If you wanted to pick in central Pa you had to be in the union. I dropped out when I started working overseas tech rep jobs with RCA and later Bendix Field Engineering. When I moved to Kansas City, Mo I looked into the union and the initiation fees (in 1973) were relatively high and obviously did their job - protected the union members already in the local. I also found out there was a clique of old line union musicians that got all the call jobs and no one else was even considered. And, their real interest was the symphony orchestra musicians. The local never seemed to care whether I picked or not so I never cared about the local. Right to Work is not an automatic "no union". The GM Fairfax assembly plant is in Kansas City, Ks. Kansas is a right to work state but if you don't join the UAW you can forget about working at the GM plant. |
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Rick Schmidt Member Posts: 1596 |
posted 11 June 2001 03:57 PM
Is there such a thing as a Union club gig anywhere in the U.S. anymore? This is a concept that I find hard to comprehend. |
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Bob Hoffnar Member Posts: 4278 |
posted 12 June 2001 12:43 AM
Donny, A couple points: Also, I have yet to meet a full time player that looks down on country musicians. The current road and studio musicians that make a living out of Nashville and Texas are thought of as some of the best musicians on the planet by most all the pro classical,pop and jazz guys I am lucky enough to work with around here. "Guitar owners" and conservatory geeks pontificate about all sorts of useless crap but among the guys that play there is respect and admiration. Bob [This message was edited by Bob Hoffnar on 12 June 2001 at 01:12 AM.] [This message was edited by Bob Hoffnar on 12 June 2001 at 01:13 AM.] |
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retcop88 unregistered Posts: 4278 |
posted 12 June 2001 04:51 AM
Everyone shoud be a Union Member,Lets face it look at the benefits,nice cars,nice clothes ,good expensive houses,all expenses paid traveling and the moneys good too.O you mean for the membership not the officers? It's ok not to work in a right to work state any good union (oxymoron)will stand up for your rights to be unemployed ,under-paid and when you decide to retire just show up and get your benefits you earned by being a dues payer all your life. In any business but the Music business this would not be a Joke. But for now somebodys got to pay for my benefits so pay your dues and shut up.  ------------------ [This message was edited by retcop88 on 12 June 2001 at 04:54 AM.] |
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John Lacey Member Posts: 1843 |
posted 12 June 2001 05:38 AM
I joined the Toronto local in the early 70's as the Union presence was fairly strong. Then, as I moved west and time went on, there seemed less and less union presence and therefore reason to join. In '83 I was playing a TV show, was bumped on the upcoming year by a out-of-district player and fought it. I lost and haven't been in the Union since. No solidarity, no balls. |
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Gene Jones Member Posts: 5796 |
posted 12 June 2001 08:45 AM
When I first started playing professionally years ago, the Union was dead serious about enforcement. For openers, a person had to be recommended by at least two members in "good standing" to be admitted, had to pay a hefty years initiation fee in advance before being allowed to work in that jurisdiction, and for the first six months could not work unless all senior members had been given first choice of available jobs. A union rep also regularly checked the local clubs and those with traveling bands, to take names and kick --- with suspensions, fines, etc, when he found violations. (anyone else remember the scandal when Mel Torme and a network was blackballed because he carried a ukelele on stage as a prop on a TV show even though he didn't even play it?) Through the years I've paid dues because it was required for contracts, paid road tax when traveling, (even been billed for tax numerous times because someone else used my card number on contracts), but for the most part the amount that I've been paid has been the result of my own negotiations, and has been mostly unrelated to the efforts of a union to establish "scale". The times have changed. A few years back when I started to automatically renew my card, I decided to take inventory of the benefits and realized that it had been a long time since the union had done anything "For Me" or "To Me", so I decided not to renew. I suppose the traveling theater productions like "Will Rogers Follies", "Best Little Whorehouse in Texas", etc, would still require a card...but I can't even remember when I've been asked to show one for anything. www.genejones.com [This message was edited by Gene Jones on 12 June 2001 at 08:54 AM.] |
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Bobby Lee Sysop Posts: 14849 |
posted 12 June 2001 09:08 AM
When someone wants to sit in and we don't want them, we always tell them "Sorry, union rules." It gets rid of the pests. Of course, none of us are union anymore, but they don't know that. |
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Jack Stoner Sysop Posts: 8119 |
posted 12 June 2001 10:25 AM
Retcop88, I have a good example for you living the next block over from me. He was the NYC PBA president and then the PBA state lobbyist in Albany NY before he retired from the police force...I doubt if he can tell you when he last did actual "police" work. |
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Gene Jones Member Posts: 5796 |
posted 12 June 2001 10:26 AM
Goleeee.....I'd like you to "set in" but.......... |
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retcop88 unregistered Posts: 5796 |
posted 12 June 2001 04:33 PM
Jack if the man was a PBA president and State rep. especially in New York which has the largest number of sworn in Police personel you can bet he did a lot of work. Not everyone can be in the trenches without support.The PBA supports it's members with officials that know first hand the problems,and without PBA support I.A. (Internal affairs) would become a Hitler regime. Like any other Union,politics are always a big part.. ------------------ |
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Miguel e Smith Member Posts: 500 |
posted 13 June 2001 12:01 PM
Just as I suspected...for some it's a "darned if you do darned if you don't" experience. For others, the musician's union does little to nothing for them. The collective bargaining power is really felt between the studio musicians and the signatories they negotiate with (and that is quite beneficial). "If" you don't belong, other union members are not supposed to work with you (or get fined if you do). I actually endorse the concept of "union", but outside of some of the most basic of benefits that even I enjoy, it is of little use. Having said that, I'd like to see some changes which would make being a member (outside of the recording world) be of serious advantage. Health insurance being a biggie....now, you can get insurance through the union if you are a member and the idea is that it is a reduced fee because you are part of a larger group. In reality, the prices are not very competative. For those of you who are not familier as much with the A.F.M., it's actually a member of the AFLCIO family....surprised? Nowadays, buck for buck, a person who joins Sams Wholesale Club gets more savings offered them than do musicians who are a far more specialized labor force. In order for the union to actually get us work, they'd probably have to become a booking agency also and that would probably be a conflict of interest, but....who knows. Oh, by the way, I'm not really "under cover" (ha), I'm just tired of the plain and simple name "Mike". Miguel sounds more international and still is my real name (just in Espanol). And thanks Larry (Bell)for the gracious comments. For those of you even care about such things, I laid off playing for almost 10 years but I'm back at it. I've been traveling with Larry Gatlin for the last few years (about 50 days a year), and work locally doing live and studio work here in Phoenix, AZ. I'd also like to see the A.F.M. be more user friendly and beneficial to all musicians. Affordable insurance (of all kinds) would be a big issue for me and maybe many of you. Perhaps all these comments will lead someone to pursue the steps necessary to make changes happen! Thanks for jumping in. |
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Larry Bell Member Posts: 4116 |
posted 13 June 2001 01:11 PM
Bienvenido, Miguel Lorenzo ------------------ |
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pdl20 Member Posts: 436 |
posted 13 June 2001 02:00 PM
i don't play much anymore.like Herbie said the jobs are not herer and the ones that are ,well nufh said.i have been a member of local 257 for over 25 yrs and other afm. locals befor that,also am a 23yr member of the laborers union.it has all worked for me.i will retire with a nice pension. now i can pick for a living.(joke) i still pay dues to the nashville local.not to help me but to help the guys and gals that are members now and future members.with out someone to represent you in some way we would all be living in dirt huts and make slave wages.look at the living standard of non-union workers.its all up to each one what we are happy with and how we live.you have to make that choice,but don't base it all on the cost /benefit of the dues.thats my 2-cents. Rudy |
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retcop88 unregistered Posts: 436 |
posted 13 June 2001 03:52 PM
If you are a member of 257 and expect a little compensation for all your dues......dream on. Talk about Bull$hit well ask old Smiley and many of the long time members who expected more after 30 something years of loyal dues paying....talk about a clique of A$$hole. ------------------ |
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Miguel e Smith Member Posts: 500 |
posted 13 June 2001 03:55 PM
Rudy made a statement about retiring with a nice pension, but here's one of the keys...he's a member of (another) labor union that is probably going to provide that nice income. I'd be willing to say that he has little to nothing coming from the A.F.M. (Correct me Rudy if I'm wrong). The only pension available directly through the musicians union itself is the Employer's Pension Fund (keyword here is "employer's"). This fund is paid into by the signatory companies or producer's that the pickers work for (assuming it was a "union" gig). The member has no control over where the pension is invested and cannot access the funds (even with a penalty) until he/she is 55 years old. Even in "retirement" we'd all probably still want to play and work some, but the pension available to a picker is very, very limited. Even though I've played on many record dates, TV shows and "dues paying" live gigs, if I had to rely on the pension I've got built up now to live comfortably....well, I'd have to panhandle at the busy intersection down the street just to feed my household. For any of you reading this, I'll restate that I am NOT against the musicians union. I've been a member of the Nashville union for 30 years now. However, compared to the benefits of other nationwide unions, the A.F.M. is not really working for the collective. I'm all for supporting other members, but at the pace and practice we're presently at, only a handful of the already high wage earners will be able to retire comfortably (and I will be willing to bet it will be due to investments made outside of the union's pension plan). After having said all this stuff, maybe I need to consider whether or not I need to start the ball rolling to see changes made (will that mean that I have to join the politicians union now?). |
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pdl20 Member Posts: 436 |
posted 14 June 2001 09:02 AM
correct,i got nothing in retirement from the musicians union.i didnt work anything that paid into the retirement fund.some demo work and spec sessions.and miles and miles of road work like most sidemen and women do.ask anyone who has worked in nashville for an artist.it isnt the most secure kind of work there is but even with that it was fun.if you were paid every hr. you spent at it you might make 2.00 per hr.counting the travel time,set up time,etc. but we did it ,loved it and would most likely do it again.its in our blood .its called talent,a gift from God, whatever.i got real lucky and met a gal who worked for the union and after picken jobs started to fall off had the foresite to talk me into this craft i work at now.best thing that could have happend.we all get old and out of demand at some point in life.well not all do i guess .i did. |
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chas smith Member Posts: 3168 |
posted 14 June 2001 10:52 AM
Bienvenido, Miguel Carlos, manos de piedra When I got blacklisted out of IATSE-695, of course that never happens, and I was allowed an honorary withdrawal, I was given a check for the pension I had accumulated for the previous 8 years, so I went down to 7-11 and got a hot dog and a slurpie. |
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Miguel e Smith Member Posts: 500 |
posted 14 June 2001 04:08 PM
Chas...you ended up with an average of $2 an hour? Dang...that's pretty good! I suspect we all love it (or did at one point) and would do it for the fun of it. For those of us who didn't get smart and learn another craft (and don't have working women or men in our lives!), we're kinda up the proverbial crick. Haven't been blacklisted (yet), but forgot to pay $2 in dues a few times (literally) and was called before the board. Adios, Miguel |
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