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HELP! A NEW CARTER S-12 or used MSA U-12 ??? (Page 1)
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The Steel Guitar Forum
Pedal Steel Archive
HELP! A NEW CARTER S-12 or used MSA U-12 ??? (Page 1)
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| This topic is 2 pages long: 1 2 This topic was originally posted in this forum: Pedal Steel |
| Author | Topic: HELP! A NEW CARTER S-12 or used MSA U-12 ??? |
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John Sims Member Posts: 342 |
posted 18 September 2000 01:21 PM
Hello everyone, I am new to this forum, and have been dying to play steel since I was a kid. I have the opportunity to buy a new Carter S-12 (7/5) or a used MSA U-12 (7/5). Here are some pics of the MSA. The MSA is a Universal-12 (7 pedals/5 levers) on a double body. This steel was completely restored by Tom Bradshaw in 1993. It has recently had a spectacular new banded maple cabinet put under it by former owner Charles R. Bond, from whom my seller bought it from on eBay last year. He says it has unusually outstanding sustain that is hard to find. This is a really special steel that he say's I will not come across elsewhere. I have been given a price of around $1,600 for the MSA & the new Carter is around $2,300. I have never touched a steel, but after doing alot of reading and research, I have decided on a U-12. Money is always an issue, and I still would have to get vol. pedals, amp, etc. Any help, comments, or feedback, either positive or negative will be greatly appreciated. Time is of the essence... John I deleted the pics since they take too long to load... [This message was edited by John Sims on 18 September 2000 at 01:32 PM.] [This message was edited by John Sims on 20 September 2000 at 07:57 AM.] |
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Mike Perlowin Member Posts: 6731 |
posted 18 September 2000 02:03 PM
The Carter will be A LOT lighter than the MSA, and has some features the MSA won't have like square cross rods and a triple raise changer. (Some MSA guitars have triple rase changers, but not the ones that say "classic.") Be that as it may, the MSA is a great guitar. (I play one myself) and will last you forever. Given the price difference, I'd go with the MSA. The only reason to choose the Carter IMHO would be the weight factor. |
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Joe Herchel unregistered Posts: 6731 |
posted 18 September 2000 02:04 PM
John, That MSA is a beauty! I've owned both MSA and Carter. IMO, Carters are better. They play smoother due to refinements in the manufacturing process over the 20 or so years since MSAs were in production. That may be subjective, and some may not agree. Another concern for me is weight. The Carter is much lighter and that's important to me. There's a beautiful U12 Carter right here at http://www.b0b.com/forum/Forum3/HTML/005433.html
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David Pennybaker Member Posts: 1203 |
posted 18 September 2000 02:47 PM
John, I looked at that very guitar recently (not in person, but via ebay and email). It's a beautiful guitar. I decided against it (I got a used U-12 MSA, a new one with triple-raise/triple lower and on a single body) for the following reasons: 1) I got to see the used one I bought first-hand. It had recently been looked at by Bud Carter and Reece Anderson. It was completely in tune. The one you're looking at (according to what the seller told me) needs some setup work, IIRC. Double-check with the owner about that, though. As I recall, he bought it late last year, but never got around to playing it. He might be able to set it up for you (I never asked about that). 2) The extra weight of the double-body was a big concern. A single U-12 MSA in the case weighs quite a bit. On the plus side, all that extra mass should give GREAT sustain. 3) I thought that my playing position would be much more comfortable on a single-body, rather than a double. The others have pointed out the major differences between the Carter and the MSA. You'd probably be happy with either one. It's a tough choice. PS -- there are a few other guitars for sale here on the forum right now, too. You should definitely take a look at your other options. Good luck. It's a rather daunting decision -- at least it was for me. That $600 savings will buy you a nice amp / pedal / cables / bar , etc. ------------------ [This message was edited by David Pennybaker on 18 September 2000 at 02:49 PM.] |
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John Sims Member Posts: 342 |
posted 18 September 2000 03:15 PM
Wow, I got a lot to learn! I just found this one also: http://www.b0b.com/forum/Forum3/HTML/005433.html Thanks Guys! John ------------------ |
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Bob Knight Member Posts: 3117 |
posted 18 September 2000 03:47 PM
John, Buy the Carter from JD, you won't be sorry. The Carter is a "state of the art guitar", and JD is a great guy to deal with. Good Luck, |
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Steve Feldman Member Posts: 2983 |
posted 18 September 2000 04:11 PM
I go along with Bob on this one. I've also personally done business with J-D, and he'll shoot you straight (plus, that sure looks like a beautiful guitar). The folks at Carter can't be beat either for assistance and 1st hand knowledge. Whatever you do, I'd say get the best you can get - and what makes you happy - and the rest of the 'toys' will come with time. [This message was edited by Steve Feldman on 18 September 2000 at 04:14 PM.] |
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John Sims Member Posts: 342 |
posted 18 September 2000 04:50 PM
The steel that JD has is really a beauty! I am "on hold" again! Any pro's and/or con's on the wrist pad? Thanks for the time to reply in advance... John ------------------ |
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David Pennybaker Member Posts: 1203 |
posted 18 September 2000 05:12 PM
John, That one from JD is the one I was thinking of. If that beauty had been for sale before I bought mine, I would have SERIOUSLY considered it. It's more than I spent on mine, but probably worth it. About the wrist pad / double-body. I don't know -- you'd get used to it just like you would a single-body. It'll weigh more, but have more sustain. And it'll obviously take up more room. Guys who play the D-10's use the back neck for the E9 neck, and that's the one you use for most country stuff. So, it's obviously playable. Get that new carter from JD -- unless you want my MSA. ------------------ |
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Joe Herchel unregistered Posts: 1203 |
posted 18 September 2000 05:22 PM
I'd buy JD's guitar if I could afford it and wanted a U12. I like the double body. I have a double body E9. It's still light compared to a Single Neck MSA. Also note it's lacquered finish. If you check prices at the Carter website you'll see this finish costs $650 more. ------------------ [This message was edited by Joe Herchel on 18 September 2000 at 05:25 PM.] |
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Al Marcus Member Posts: 7471 |
posted 18 September 2000 05:56 PM
John- A very tough decision! They are both great steels. Having said all that, John,you will have to make up your own mind and consider the finances too. If it were me, I would go for the NEW single body 12 string Carter....al |
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Steve Feldman Member Posts: 2983 |
posted 18 September 2000 06:12 PM
There! It's decided. Anything else we can help with? Marital problems? Difficult boss? Trouble housbreaking that new dog? Good luck. |
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John Sims Member Posts: 342 |
posted 18 September 2000 06:43 PM
You guys are GREAT! Yeah, I got this other problem with which amp to get...(!*(&*#%^@$!^) Thanks! Can't wait to get my paws on one of those babys... John ------------------ |
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Michael Johnstone Member Posts: 2535 |
posted 18 September 2000 07:24 PM
Bud Carter worked at MSA and probably built BOTH guitars.I had two MSAs I bought new-one from that era and one from around 1979-80 and they were both signed underneath by Bud Carter. |
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chris ivey Member Posts: 1105 |
posted 18 September 2000 10:58 PM
i'd go with jd's carter or that pretty msa......whichever one wants to knock the price down $300 first! |
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J D Sauser Member Posts: 1240 |
posted 19 September 2000 09:22 AM
I'd like to express my appreciation to all of you for your kind words about my guitar and my dealings with some of you. Actually, I must say that all three guitars seem to be a great option. Which ever way you decide to go, I'll be glad to assist you in any way I can. ------------------ |
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Mike Perlowin Member Posts: 6731 |
posted 19 September 2000 10:38 AM
Something to consider that hasn't been mentioned yet is the difference on the way the MSA and the Carter will sound. The MSA will most likely have a darker more mellow sound, and the Carter will be brighter with greater emphasis on the treble. Especially if it has an aluminum neck. You might want to take that into consideration when you decide which guitar you want. |
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John Sims Member Posts: 342 |
posted 19 September 2000 10:44 AM
I love the Carter that JD has. I am torn between 3 lovers!??? Actually 4...my girlfriend, and the 3 steels I have to choose from. I think the girlfriend is gonna lose out! John ------------------ |
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Jim Smith Member Posts: 6399 |
posted 19 September 2000 10:46 AM
Now you're talkin' like a steel player!     |
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C Dixon Member Posts: 5912 |
posted 19 September 2000 10:54 AM
I would not hesitate one second on this one. Buy that Carter hands down. I say this for reasons other than the differences in the steel. MSA is NO longer in business. Carter IS. But that is ONLY the beginning. NO steel guitar manufacturer ever in this world has been more "customer friendly" than Carter Steel Guitars. They have NO equal in the industry. Simply put, they are the best ever been. I used to get so mad at Emmons factory for service, I wanted to spit nails! I have heard war stories about most of the rest. But Never heard one negative word about Carter. Knowing ANN and John and being aquainted with Bud I can tell you unequivocally and emphatically they are THE BEST! Buy that Carter. You will not go wrong. If it doesn't play or sound like you like, they will make it right!! Ask anyone who owns a Carter! God bless Carter and its people, carl |
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Joe Herchel unregistered Posts: 5912 |
posted 19 September 2000 02:48 PM
There ya go... You got great advice, a lot of different views, but all the above is very true. Mike brought up a good point about the MSA sound. It is different. Consider what type of sound you are looking for when you compare steels. I like a bright sound, so my vote is for JD's. Be sure to post what your decission is.
------------------ [This message was edited by Joe Herchel on 19 September 2000 at 02:49 PM.] |
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John Sims Member Posts: 342 |
posted 19 September 2000 03:37 PM
And the decision is......
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Steve Feldman Member Posts: 2983 |
posted 19 September 2000 04:14 PM
Ha! Interesting process unfolded here. Congrats. I know you and your new girlfriend will be very happy. P.S. When you talk to J-D, insist that he lighten up on the packing peanuts... [This message was edited by Steve Feldman on 19 September 2000 at 04:16 PM.] |
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John Sims Member Posts: 342 |
posted 19 September 2000 04:25 PM
Yeah, I gotta be cool, as she reads my e-mail!!! We live not too far from each other, so he was kind enough to offer to bring it by and try a few amps. So, there wo'nt be any peanuts with this order. I finally decided after speaking with him again today on the phone, and after all of the cudos given to him by you fine people. I wanted a double body 12 for some reason, and the new Carter that is available was a single. Anyway, the laquer finish really caught my eye too, not to mention the fact that the factory just "overhauled" the steel and upgraded the technology. Thanks again all of you for the time to post! Regards, John |
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Mike Perlowin Member Posts: 6731 |
posted 19 September 2000 04:56 PM
Congratulations John. And welcome to the club. You have an amazing musical adventure in store. It will drive your crazy at times, but stick at it and pretty soon you'll be having the time of your life. If you have questions, and you will, we're all here to help. |
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John Sims Member Posts: 342 |
posted 19 September 2000 05:52 PM
Thanks Mike, All of you have been super! I can't wait to get started... John ------------------ |
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chris ivey Member Posts: 1105 |
posted 19 September 2000 06:21 PM
even if no one would drop the price, that would have been my decision....and i've been doing this for 30 years! you can't quit the club now or herb will have to kill you. |
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Joseph Barcus Member Posts: 711 |
posted 19 September 2000 07:04 PM
look closer under the msa most likely youre see bud carter's name on it as well, he was bulding for msa in those times, I have a carter at this time and they play great with no cabnet drop at all, Joe ------------------ |
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David Pennybaker Member Posts: 1203 |
posted 19 September 2000 08:24 PM
quote: A very fine choice. Thanks. Now I won't have to drool over it, and wish that I'd waited just another week or so before getting mine. That beauty sure is tempting. Almost enough for me to have bought it and tried to sell the one I just got. It's a big plus that you could have it delivered to your door, too. It's sure comforting to see something like this in person before committing to it. You're very lucky to have had this one so close. (As was I with the MSA that I got). Definitely try out the amps. I'll be curious to see what you get. I ended up getting a Nashville 1000. ------------------ |
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Al Marcus Member Posts: 7471 |
posted 19 September 2000 10:04 PM
Buying the Carter was a good choice. You won't be disappointed....al |
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John Sims Member Posts: 342 |
posted 20 September 2000 08:00 AM
Maybe I should sell it, and save a little more for a Legrande??? (HEHE) ------------------ |
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Joe Herchel unregistered Posts: 342 |
posted 20 September 2000 09:11 AM
Congrats John. Glad I could help. Wish I lived close enough to see it. About Amps... If you want new consider a Nashville 1000. A search for either item will yeild tons of info. I use a 400. ------------------ |
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John Sims Member Posts: 342 |
posted 20 September 2000 10:08 AM
Yeah, the 400 is a good choice, but JD is going to hook up a few older tube amps, and let me see the differences. He has a Sho-Bud I think and a few others. I like the mellow warm tones, not so bright. But, what do I know, I ain't even got it yet...Those dern tubes are probably getting expensive by now. John |
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Steve Feldman Member Posts: 2983 |
posted 20 September 2000 10:44 AM
J-D's a tube nut (uh...Hi there, J-D...). I'll bet you'll have a good opportunity to hear a variety of interesting stuff. |
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John Sims Member Posts: 342 |
posted 20 September 2000 11:36 AM
I hear the Nash 400 & older Sessions are very good. It's too soon to tell, but I probably would not want to "bright" of an amp with the Carter. I am an electronics design engineer (Heavy RF but know audio) and some of this newer semiconductor based stuff is really scary. Alot of it is over rated and "under powered" regarding DC power feeds to the output in most cases, but I haven't had the chance to look into the latest audio power amps and designs lately. I was looking at the Peavy website and their posted "schematics" are actually circuit board layouts, and the parts lists for the steel amp "upgrades" doesn't give much information as far as cap values and/or changes, and I am sure the actual schematics are proprietary. I don't like the idea of heavy power flowing through circuit board lands, and the TO package power transistors are old technology, not very efficient. I wonder how they are heat sinked? IMHO tubes are basically high power consumption devices and are getting hard to find and expensive. That makes those tube amps heavier in weight, but I guess that's the trade off. It's like choosing handlebars for a motorcycle,...you have to buy them to try them! |
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J D Sauser Member Posts: 1240 |
posted 20 September 2000 06:35 PM
I'm not a tube nut. I'm a packing peanuts nut! ... J-D. |
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Mike Perlowin Member Posts: 6731 |
posted 21 September 2000 08:04 AM
Before you buy an amp, let me ask. Do you also play lead guitar or any other instrument? If so, you might be better with an all purpose amp like a Twin Reverb than something that is specificly made for steel. That perfect steel amp might not be so good for guitar. I use a 1976 Music Man HD212 (Made by Leo Fender). It doesn't sound quite as good as A Peavey or a Webb or Evans, but it's good enough. Unlike many guitar amps, it works quite well on the steel, and also sounds good on guitar. I had a Peavey LTD 400 which had a better tone for the steel, but I could never get a good guitar sound out of it. |
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John Sims Member Posts: 342 |
posted 21 September 2000 12:22 PM
NO, I don't play anything else, but I will be open to anyone who has an LTD 400 for sale! |
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David Pennybaker Member Posts: 1203 |
posted 21 September 2000 01:29 PM
John, It's your lucky day! 4 amps for sale ($300 - $400), including a Session 400 LTD ------------------ |
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Jon Light Member Posts: 6528 |
posted 21 September 2000 01:38 PM
The peanut thing is kind of cool, actually. It's like CrackerJacks. After I opened the package from J-D I ate all those peanuts (kind of bland) and inside was a prize. A Flinthill resoguit! A little whistle or decoder ring or something would have neater but a prize is a prize. John--you can't beat the Peavey 400 amps--Session, Nash--for the money. They have all the power you will need for gigging, they sound good, they were designed specifically for steel, they are built to last, and they are relatively inexpensive (you shouldn't pay more than $350-400 for one, I would say. Oh, and of course, congrats on that honey of a guitar. If you haven't already, you ought to drop a line to Ann & John Fabian and Bud Carter and get acquainted. They are not parties to your deal but they will be there for you down the road. [This message was edited by Jon Light on 21 September 2000 at 01:40 PM.] |
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