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Learning the C6 neck
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The Steel Guitar Forum
Pedal Steel Archive
Learning the C6 neck
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This topic was originally posted in this forum: Pedal Steel |
| Author | Topic: Learning the C6 neck |
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Rick Barber Member Posts: 286 |
posted 28 November 1999 05:53 PM
Was wondering for those who started on an E9 neck, when did you start working on the C6. This question is especially for D10 , not universal 12 users I suppose. Did you wait til you were advanced on the E9 or did you try to work on both immediately. Any advice and opinions welcome. Thanks, Rick Barber |
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Bobby Lee Sysop Posts: 14849 |
posted 28 November 1999 06:06 PM
I've been playing 12 string E9th for about twenty years. I started learning C6th (actually D6th in my case) about three weeks ago. I've tried before but it never "stuck". This time I'm really starting to get the hang of it. ------------------ |
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Doug Jones Member Posts: 543 |
posted 28 November 1999 06:36 PM
As E9, there are so many aspects to C6. There are many great courses now available. I guess the biggest thing is what style do you wish to emulate the most. I suggest listening to as much C6 playing as possible. If you can get your hands on some of the older stuff/recordings/Chalker, you may obtain an appreciation for the roots of our passion. I especially recommend you seek out an older cat in your area (do some serious research) that plays C6 and glean as much as you can. One must really approach the C6 from a different angle. It's so easy to take an E9 slant (no pun intended) to the C6 tuning. Good luck in your quest and don't forget to lock yourself in the back room 2-4 hours a day when you find the stuff you want to emulate. - DJ - |
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Michael Johnstone Member Posts: 2535 |
posted 28 November 1999 07:13 PM
I played standard guitar first for about 12 years,working my way through the Ventures,Chet Atkins,surf music,R&B and the Beatles.I got my first steel around '71 after hearing Poco play live.I played E9 for about 2 years and then - when I heard what guys like Emmons were doing on C6,and how much more hip it was musically than E9,I started trying to find guys around L.A. who played C6 and picked up as much as I could from watching and talking to them.Plus,I thought that carrying around a D-10 and only being able to play one neck was EXTREMELY lame.A year or so later,the Jeff Newman course "Music To Get C6th By" came out.By the summer of '75,I worked my way through most of it-which showed me enough to sit down and map out the various positions and chord possibilities using different strings as root tones,etc.I remember making a bunch of different cardboard fretboards with all the notes written out with different pedals engaged so I could put them under the strings and run scales and practice drills,etc,Also,I got the Neil Flanz C6 chord dictionary which I STILL refer to on occasion(thanx Neil)In recent years,I've been drawn to the challenge of playing non-pedal(specifically,a Fender Stringmaster)after seeing what guys like Marty Rifkin and Junior Brown were getting out of them.I've been playing several variations of 6th tunings on it because of all the stuff you can get w/no pedals-plus there's a wealth of written material,tab,etc available for non-pedal C6. My latest 8 string non pedal tuning: Joaquin Murphey's diabolically clever C6maj7/A9. It may be more stylized,and not as musically neutral as the Leavitt tuning,but you can play more(and hipper)be-bop on that tuning than any other single fixed tuning I'm aware of. -MJ- |
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Al Marcus Member Posts: 7471 |
posted 28 November 1999 07:32 PM
If I were some of you guys just starting on C6, I would seriously consider E6 instead. Same pedal pulls, can use same tab and lessons , All the C6 pedals will work, just different key. Same bar positions as E9 or guitar.6 of the 10 strings are the same notes as E9. What more can I say?....al P>S> I played E6 for 20 years before I started on E9 for commercial purposes. [This message was edited by Al Marcus on 11-28-99] |
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Nick Reed Member Posts: 2713 |
posted 28 November 1999 07:47 PM
Al, this sounds very interesting. What do you do. . . . .just tune the C-note open strings to "E" then temper tune the rest of the neck combination. I can see where this would help a C6th beginner to familiarize himself with the back neck if he's been a E9th player like myself. Since I've got an extra D-10 guitar here at the house, I might just try this trick. Nick |
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hank R Member Posts: 95 |
posted 28 November 1999 08:01 PM
Al, Do u experience any string breakage with E-6 on c-6 . There are raises that may breakem? String guages same ? . [This message was edited by hank R on 11-28-99] |
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Rodney Shuffler Member Posts: 593 |
posted 28 November 1999 08:12 PM
This is getting off the topic of this thread but, you can use a set of E9 strings with only a couple of changes and tune to E6. It works real well for me. I'm starting in just the last few days to take a little interest in the 6th side just because the E tuning oriented everything so well for me. Rod ------------------
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Bob Hoffnar Member Posts: 4278 |
posted 29 November 1999 12:40 AM
Rick, I started on E9 then went U12 and then a few months ago got my first D10. I'm really enjoying the C6 neck. I wish I would have started on it sooner. Once you get the logic of it it is no harder than the E9. I still need to practice alot before I can make the thing sing but it has a great sound and opens up lots of new musical places. Try relearning parts you know cold on the E9 on the C6. Have fun, Bob |
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Don McClellan Member Posts: 882 |
posted 29 November 1999 01:34 AM
I think you should consider getting an S12U with the RIGHT copedent. A 7 pedal set-up with a knee lever lowering the 8th string E to D. Not an 8 pedal set-up with a knee lever raising the 9th string B to D. Its easy, fun and convenient. You'll probably stop practicing the E9 stuff all together like I did. But its always right there under your fingers when you want it. There are many important advantages to using the right S12U copedent over the wrong one. If you're interested in knowing what they are, ask me. |
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Richard Sinkler Member Posts: 2896 |
posted 29 November 1999 07:33 AM
Hey Rick, Thanks for coming up here on Saturday. It was a blast. Can't wait for our next get together. I started playing steel almost 29 years ago and the C-6th about 25 years ago. Granted, I didn't spend as much time learning the C6th as I should have. I am just now getting REAL serious. Probably 75% of my practice time now goes to that neck. MAybe at our next jam we can spend some time on the C neck. ------------------
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Dan Tyack Member Posts: 3552 |
posted 29 November 1999 02:19 PM
I decided I needed to learn C6th so I left Nashville and got off the road, and took a club gig where I could play whatever I wanted. I replaced Bobby Black, so these guys loved C6th. I took a bunch of theory classes at a local college to get the basics, and sat down with a bunch of records. But what really got me going was touring with Asleep at the Wheel, where I didn't play a lick of E9th. ------------------ |
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Pete Burak Member Posts: 2750 |
posted 29 November 1999 02:47 PM
Hey Don, Could you elaborate on the right/wrong universal copedants you mention. Please give as much detail as possible. thx, Pete |
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Jon Light Member Posts: 6528 |
posted 29 November 1999 03:02 PM
Hey, Don--you've got me interested too. How about starting a thread with your ideas? This is a subject we don't see much here. ------------------
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Don McClellan Member Posts: 882 |
posted 29 November 1999 04:27 PM
Pete, A person can only approach the universal tuning from one of two standpoints. Either you've had years of experience playing C6th or you've had little if any experience with it at all. If you're of the latter group you're in luck because it is easier to make the transition from an S10 E9 with just 3 pedals to a S12U with 7 pedals then it is to go from a double 10 with 8 pedals to an S12U with 7. Consequently experienced C6 players will choose to use 8 pedals for their version of a universal tuning because that is what they're used to. That is 3 pedals for the E9 "side" and 5 for the B6 side. I believe this is a mistake. Of the 5 basic C6 pedals the 3rd pedal raises one string 1/2 a step and lowers another string 1/2 a step. This is the most often used C6 pedal. With an S12U this change should be on a knee lever. On an E9/B6 universal these are strings 4 and 8 (E strings) which need to be lowered to Eb with a knee (a common E9 change) to get into the B6th mode. If you have a knee lever lowering the 8th string E to D (and engage it) then all you need to do is disengage the Es to Eb knee lever and this gives you the same affect as the third C6th pedal but with other advantages. First it puts you in an E9 position and B6 position at the same time (as does engaging the Es to Eb lever) enabling you to make a smooth, clean transition from one mode to the other in mid-chord if you want to. Also, players who use 8 pedals need to continualy hold the Es to Eb lever in while raising the 4th string back up to where it was and lowering the 8th string an additional 1/2 step with the floor pedal. This means they're holding the Es to Eb knee lever in constantly while in the B6th mode. That gets very old very fast and with the seven pedal set-up you get some well needed rest in that regard. Also, all the C6th tablature I've ever seen (Emmons, Wallace, Newman, Loessberg) calls for using two feet on the pedals at the same time to get some of the commonly used C6 chords and with the 7 pedal set-up you do not need to do that at all. Also, lowering the 8th string E to D is very nice for E9 stuff and all of this requires less wieght, less rods underneath and less and easier fine tuning. Don |
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hhguitar Member Posts: 227 |
posted 29 November 1999 05:33 PM
I bought about 16 of Jim Loessberg's jazz arrangements. I haven't dove into them yet. I'm working with a Doug Jernigan (13 Songs For C6) course which I find to be very interesting. C6 is a different animal than E9. In the 70's I had a double neck Sho-Bud and I learned a bit of C6 but my knowledge of progressions outside of I,IV,V, etc. was too limited. I was also busting ass then mainly to be a good E9 player, which I became. So this past summer I bought a D-10 Emmons and am back at it after an 8 year lay-off. Since my Knowledge of music, and jazz in particular has greatly increased, I'm determined to master the C6 this time. The Doug Jernigan course has been of particular interest to me since it is providing me with an understanding of the tuning from the simple perspective of country tunes. (Aside from jazz tunes, it seems most of what could be considered basic C6 instructional material seems to focus on Hawaiian material, which I have no interest in). Although I'm a proficient enough player to dive right into the jazz material, I think the perspective of the Doug Jernigan course is of value to me and therefore I'm pursuing it first. I've recorded good backup tracks for the course in my studio, since the quality of the tracks provided is very poor. I've made standard length and long length tracks for six of the tunes so far (one CD). But it has taken me much longer than I would have hoped to. I seem to be able to do only the two arrangements each for two songs per day. But my tracks are strong. I have a very good studio and use mastering software and the whole nine yards. I burn them to CD and they sound as good as anything else I play on my CD player. I have CD duplicating equipment and may consider offering "back up tracks" commercially. I may get into making tracks for jazz tunes as well, but as I say, it is time consuming work. But I highly recommend the Doug Jernigan course to anyone who wants to get the C6 neck down. I also highly recommend the Buddy Emmons "Basic C6" course ... very good material, but then what else would you expect from Buddy Emmons? The Jeff Newman C6 materials are also very, very good. Jeff Newmans materials are always right up there at the top of the heap when it comes to pedal steel guitar instruction. If anybody purchases the "13 Songs For C6" by Doug Jernigan and wants good strong back up tracks to jam with, drop me an email and I'll let you know what I can offer. Regards, |
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Pete Burak Member Posts: 2750 |
posted 29 November 1999 06:06 PM
Hi Don, I'm trying to get a good visualization of the concept (I'm workin' with "the little brain that could" over here!). I recall a while back DVA was working on a copedent that I think was similar. Could you possibly post this copedent? So you're saying that you still need to hold the E to Eb knee lever in for an open 6th chord, but you release it and enguage another knee lever that only lowers string 8, E to D, for what would be the standard C6th pedal 6 (the 3rd C6th pedal). Again, if you could post the copedent, I would really like to see what knees are doing what. Great post Don. I love this stuff! While making that change, when you let the Eb's go back to E, do you hear string 8 go back to E before it goes to D? [This message was edited by Pete Burak on 11-29-99] |
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Don McClellan Member Posts: 882 |
posted 29 November 1999 06:25 PM
Pete, no. |
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Dirk B Member Posts: 454 |
posted 30 November 1999 08:27 AM
Don, I am both intrigued and baffled by your note. Like Pete, I too would like to see your copedant. I'm sure I'm just dense and missing something, but how does the seven pedal setup you mention avoid holding the Eb lever while playing in B6th mode, unless the strings are tuned to B6th to begin with? Again, I'm sure I'm just missing something obvious here..... |
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Don McClellan Member Posts: 882 |
posted 30 November 1999 10:55 AM
Dirk, I didn't say the 7 pedal set-up for the universal tuning would eliminate the need to hold the E to Eb knee lever completely but, as I said, the third C6th pedal is the most often used pedal of the basic 5 C6th pedals. Not only is used by itself a lot but it is also used in conjunction with the 2nd pedal A WHOLE LOT. It is used with the 4th pedal as well and any time you use it (as a knee lever on the 7 pedal universal) you disengage the E to Eb. I use the E to Eb about 50% of the time when I'm playing single notes. These periods of release of the E to Eb knee lever come often enough to make a differance. Remember this just one advantage, Don [This message was edited by Don McClellan on 11-30-99] |
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Dirk B Member Posts: 454 |
posted 30 November 1999 01:28 PM
Don, Got it - thanks! |
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Pete Burak Member Posts: 2750 |
posted 30 November 1999 01:59 PM
Hi Don, I just tried to post my copedent in the feedback and testing section but it didn't work. How do they do that?! So that change that we're discussing is basically the I to IV change in the 6th mode. I agree it is a high use change. What knees do you have the E's to Eb's and E to D on. You said you don't hear the 8th string Eb go back to E before it goes to D when making that change. Is it a the type of thing that just happens so fast that you don't hear it? I'm guessing it has to be a simutaneous motion, let up on one while enguaging the other? The mechanics of this idea suggest that if you have the E's to Eb's enguaged, then hit the 8th string E to D, that would avoid going back to E before going to D on the 8th string, but then you have to release the E to Eb to get your 4th sting to the right note. Help me out Don, it sounds like you're using 2 knee levers to accomplish a change that is commonly done with 1 pedal. I assure you I am genuinely interested and I think this is the type of stuff that makes the forum great. I have an old BMI S12U 7x5 that is my Frankenstien copedent-idea-tester and I want to make sure I have it staight before I go tweakin'. If you can list the other advantages too. BTW, Can a person order a Carter Universal with a change lock? |
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Jon Light Member Posts: 6528 |
posted 30 November 1999 03:24 PM
Hi Pete. I've got the E-Eb on RKL and the E-D on LKL2, (closer to the body than LKL). If I am sloppy then you do indeed hear the E note during the change. I need to be sure to engage the LKL before I release the RKL-- not difficult but important. I have never heard of a lock from Carter. Have you read Larry Bell's presentation on the subject? He gives a good treatment to the uni setup in general and the pedal elimination as well. |
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Richard Sinkler Member Posts: 2896 |
posted 30 November 1999 04:29 PM
When did this turn into a thread about universal tunings? I know Rick and he just got a D-10 so I don't think he is even considering a universal. Let's stay on topic. ------------------
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Pete Burak Member Posts: 2750 |
posted 30 November 1999 06:20 PM
Sorry for the topic drift. IF anyone wants to post more about their Uni Copedent of choice maybe we should take it over to the Technical page. Guilty as charged 
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GaryL Member Posts: 134 |
posted 30 November 1999 07:05 PM
Rick, I played E9th for about 15 yrs before buying a D-10. Shortly after this I began fooling around with the C6th neck with the help of some Jeff Newman material (all of it excellent!!) and worked out some backup/fills/solos for the band I was with. Recently I began studying Scotty's basic C6 book with a 6-string Morrell lap steel. This tuning is very habit forming !!! Good luck. |
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Ron Carpenter Member Posts: 77 |
posted 30 November 1999 09:06 PM
After trying for several years to break the code on the C6 tuning I got some sincere help from a man I am proud to call my friend, Paul Franklin. In my case, with the understanding of theory that I had, he reccomended that I get a Jamie Aebersold course for Jazz and Improvisation. And start with no peddles, or a lap guitar. The course covers a great deal of scale work. Major, minor, modes, chords, extentions, and most important, how to get what's in your head out to the instrument. It takes a while, but in time all of those scles start to run into each other in a circular form. Making it handy to drop into at any time the urge to improvise come upon you. I can tell you that for me it was the best spent time I ever spendt on the guitar. All my best Ron |
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Rick Barber Member Posts: 286 |
posted 01 December 1999 12:32 AM
Thanks to all who have replied. I would have moderated sooner a bit but my internet service must have been rebooting all night last night. And for Richard Sinkler thanks for having me up to your place. Its really good experience for me and enjoyable to be with good friends. Lets go to one of Bobby Black's gigs , he plays C6 alot. I always like talking to he and his dad. I remember pondering the idea of whether to buy a universal 12 or a D10 awhile back and went with the D10 . I was comfortable with the training material available for C6 and E9. I dont regret it. But now with my band and all I feel like I need to at least practice more now on C6 . I just dont want to do E9 any injustice by being hasty to spend time on C6. My guit teacher is well versed on C6. So I'm pretty well covered and lucky too. And now the bad news guys: I have developed a cyst under my right wrist (palm side) which I need surgically removed. Hopefully that will go without a hitch and I'll be back to practice in a couple weeks. I've decided I should take care of it before it gets worse--- hurts like heck all the time. I would love to hear from Jeff Newman, John Hughey, Paul Franklin, Buddy Emmons, Joe Wright and so many others also on their philosophies on when to take up the C6 neck for somebody who starts out solely on E9 ------- advance yourself on E9 first then go to C6 or nurse both at the same time. For D10 owners especially. Incidently I went to a jam in Sacramento and one person was playing an S10 but wasnt an E9 --- it was a C6......... Has anyone heard of dual neck with E9 and a 12 string universal instead of C6 . For those who have to get use to a new neck anyway??? Best to all, thanks again, |
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Dan Tyack Member Posts: 3552 |
posted 01 December 1999 05:56 AM
I second the Jamie Aebersold courses. Those really helped me when I started out. ------------------ |
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joe wright Member Posts: 242 |
posted 01 December 1999 06:41 AM
When to take up the C6th?...now. The time you spent contemplating learning could have been spent learning. You can't learn any younger...joe |
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Bob Hoffnar Member Posts: 4278 |
posted 01 December 1999 08:42 AM
I get alot out of the Abersol jazz stuff. One thing that has helped me in applying it to steel is the Joe Wright's scale spread sheet program. Clears up some of those mental blocks I got for xmas last year. Bob |
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John Steele Member Posts: 2469 |
posted 01 December 1999 01:42 PM
I started learning both necks at once. I figured, dive right in. No regrets. I know I'm in the minority when I say that the C6 neck seems alot more logically laid out than the E9 neck. You're presented with a beautiful 6th chord, and the levers to address specific alterations to that chord that you don't have as easily on E9. i.e. lower the third 1/2 tone, lower the 5th 1/2 tone, etc. My opinion only, but I believe anyone interested in learning this tuning should run out and pick up (ready for this??) a recording of the orginal Decca recordings of the Count Basie Orchestra. This era in popular music (1937- mid forties) is the greatest example of the "6th philosophy". The horn sections parts are written out very similarly to the C6th neck (i.e. if you lower the 3rd on a I 6th chord, it becomes the IV ninth chord .... if you lower the 5th tone on a 6th chord 1 semitone, it becomes a II 9th chord... etc etc) A listen to "Jumpin the Blues" or "One O'Clock Jump" will reveal section movements almost identical to the C6 tuning. This method of harmonizing was very prevalent then, and epitomizes the era, imho. The interesting thing is, as popular music changed, so did the tuning - so that more "modern" voicings are readily available too. 7#9 chords, 7#11 chords, etc. etc. I know that many sages of the steel guitar have said "Don't learn the tuning, just learn the instrument". I have to respectfully disagree. To me, the C6 and E9 are two distinct entities. But I have much to learn. -John p.s. the other advantage is, once you learn C6, you are then given free reign to poke fun at all the S-10 players, and their "half-a-steel-guitar". 
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Bill Llewellyn Member Posts: 1882 |
posted 03 December 1999 09:42 PM
Let me step sideways of the main topic here for just a second onto copedants.... For those of you with your own web pages, feel free to copy my copedant page to your own account and edit it to fit your PSG's copedant. Should save you a little time versus making it from scratch. Then just point anybody who is interested in your PSG's setup to your copedant page. Mine is here. Now back to the regularly scheduled programming.... [This message was edited by Bill Llewellyn on 12-03-99] |
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Bill Cunningham Member Posts: 381 |
posted 05 December 1999 09:25 AM
John Steele said: ---------------- p.s. the other advantage is, once you learn C6, you are then given free reign to poke fun at all the S-10 players, and their "half-a-steel-guitar" --------------------------- I perfer to think of the S-10 as a sample size! But seriously, would someone elaborate on the details of the Abersole course. Is there more than one book? Where does one obtain them, etc, etc,. Bill Cunningham |
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John Steele Member Posts: 2469 |
posted 05 December 1999 12:42 PM
Hi Bill, Nice to hear from you when you were in the area last week. The Jamey Aebersold courses are mostly to do with chord progressions and improvising over them. Some of the different courses included studies of the 11-V-1 change, etc. They have rhythm tracks over which to practice improvising, usually in all twelve keys. Alot of guys rave about them. I've never used them, but the address for a free catalogue is: 1211 Aebersold Dr., New Albany, IN., 47150 or 1-800-456-1388. -John |
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Bob Hoffnar Member Posts: 4278 |
posted 05 December 1999 01:45 PM
http://www.jajazz.com/ |
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B Bailey Brown Member Posts: 606 |
posted 05 December 1999 03:48 PM
When I first started playing 30 years ago I had no “formal” musical training...still don’t for that matter! It was always easier for me to “hear” things, or figure them out on the C6th tuning than the E9th. Kinda strange because I actually started as a 6 string guitar player, but the C neck just made more sense to me. Someone else made the statement that the C6th tuning was “more logically laid out”...maybe my ear just heard that. Who knows?! It took me some years to become really comfortable with the E9th tuning. As the old Bob Wills song goes “Time Changes Everything”. Nowadays I play 80% E9th, but there are still tunes I learned years ago on the C neck that were actually done on the E9th tuning, and I still play them on the C6th tuning. I just learned them wrong. B. Bailey Brown [This message was edited by B Bailey Brown on 12-05-99] |
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Al Marcus Member Posts: 7471 |
posted 09 December 1999 10:53 PM
Hey Pete, let's go over to technical to discuss Don McClellan' s E9/B6 tuning ideas. OK? I have some of that on my black Mica MSA, only need 5 pedals for full E9/B6, part of just what he was talking about. Bud Carter has this tuning on his Website.It is good for older guitars, don't need triple raise/lower..al |
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