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Buddy Emmons Question re: Wraparounds (Page 2)
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The Steel Guitar Forum
Pedal Steel Archive
Buddy Emmons Question re: Wraparounds (Page 2)
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| This topic is 2 pages long: 1 2 This topic was originally posted in this forum: Pedal Steel |
| Author | Topic: Buddy Emmons Question re: Wraparounds |
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Chris Lucker Member Posts: 421 |
posted 10 January 2002 11:21 AM
Thank you for the opportunity to pose this question. Since Emmons wraparounds are so rare, it is hard for us "civilians" to get a chance to examine and compare 1964 and 1965 wraparounds. What were the changes made during the production run of Emmons wraparounds and why were the changes made? Thank you. Chris Lucker |
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Buddy Emmons Member Posts: 1403 |
posted 10 January 2002 12:01 PM
Chris, The original wraparound aluminum necks were cast in one piece. The only major change I can think of is a cutout in the back of the original neck with an aluminum insert to replace it. It was in keeping with the original design so I never questioned the change. Being the person who had to work on them at the time, I assumed that Ron Lashley went that route to access the back of the changer or perhaps the string pins in case they broke off. |
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Buddy Emmons Member Posts: 1403 |
posted 10 January 2002 01:52 PM
I might add that if there were any changes in the wraparound neck before the insert became standard, it would have been a slight dimensional modification for assembly purposes. Otherwise, all wraparound necks I've seen over the years appeared to be consistent with the original design. |
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Chris Lucker Member Posts: 421 |
posted 10 January 2002 02:05 PM
Thanks for your reply. Actually, I was referring to changes within the wraparound era. For example, did the first wraparounds have cast fingers, skinnier shafts, different spacers between fingers, different capacitors, different pickups, different changer mount, etc.? I have never seen a very early wraparound, but may have the opportunity tp trade a rare flyrod for a wraparound. I am trying to figure out how to determine whether it is early or late beyond the serial number. Thank you. Chris Lucker |
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Skip Cole Member Posts: 1292 |
posted 13 January 2002 07:26 AM
Chris, go ahead and make the trade, the fly won't miss the rod anyways. When he hears you play that p/p wrap-around, he'll thank you for it.  ------------------ |
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Buddy Emmons Member Posts: 1403 |
posted 13 January 2002 08:34 AM
My apologies for the misunderstanding. The very first fingers were individually cast from an injection die. That mold was then modified to accommodate a leverage problem I hadn't factored in. I'm almost certain the guitar you mentioned is one with the modification. As for pickups, once I tanked the stereo idea, all pickups were made much like the single coils of today with the exception of resistance value. The pickups on my wraparound I used on the early Price sessions were wound to 16 or possibly lower. Unless specified otherwise, most Emmons guitars left the factory with the same pedal changes and specs as the one I was using, so unless the pickups have been changed, they should measure out in the 16K range. As best I remember, the changer shafts and spacers were the same as later models, although I can't swear that Mr. Lashley didn't let a few experimental changes go out the door without my knowledge. I didn't know there was a bolt-on guitar until my cousin bought one. To be safe, Mike Cass and Herb Steiner have worked on wraparounds, so they might be able to point out unique things to spot that I've overlooked. I think the original wraparound was the best sounding of all the Emmons guitars, so I'd take skip's advice. If it's in playing condition, the sound should be the least of your worries. If it was up to me and the sound was that of the original, the condition would be the least of my worries. |
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Bobby Boggs Member Posts: 3623 |
posted 13 January 2002 08:53 AM
So Buddy.As I understand it.The wrap-around and the split tail, which is a form of the original wrap-around. Should sound pretty much the same??I know,no 2 guitars sound the same but you know what I mean? You can read feeble minds can't you?? bb |
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Buddy Emmons Member Posts: 1403 |
posted 13 January 2002 09:49 AM
The Blade that I used for so many years was a split-tail and always sounded great to me until I played it next to a wraparound, so I can't honestly put it in the same category. That's not to shortchange the sound of the split-tail because most of my work has been done with the Blade. I don't know what to say about describing a sound that affects you personally other than through an old Zen adage: Those who know can't explain it and those who can explain it don't know. That's why we come up with terms like warm, fat, thick, thin, and raggedyassed. When I make a fuss over a wraparound, it's because I've never played another guitar that inspired me as much. Many musicians say the same for other guitars, so it boils down to if you can play what you feel and feel what you play; you've got the right instrument. |
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Bobby Boggs Member Posts: 3623 |
posted 13 January 2002 10:15 AM
Raggedyassed! So you have heard me play. Thanks as always for the info.I've never had the opportunity really play a warp around.I did however set down to a 64 or 65 that Terry Crisp had.He swore the strings where 2 years old.It sounded better than all the other guitars he had at the house at that time.He had no other PP's there to compare with and this was just prior to his Derby days.Not to imply the Derby sounds as good as the 64 pp.The Derby sounds great.But different.And Terry's current copendant wouldn't work very well on a PP.he had other things in mind for the 64 pp. bb [This message was edited by Bobby Boggs on 13 January 2002 at 10:47 AM.] |
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Herb Steiner Member Posts: 6119 |
posted 13 January 2002 11:13 AM
Bobby Let me add just a couple of pennies to what Buddy has said about the tone of these particular horns, and I'm sure that many wraparound owners such as Jim Loessberg, Paul Warnik, Dave Robbins, and others will bear out. There is a guitar/amp sound floating around in the heads of some of us that is very difficult... impossible in fact... to quantitatively describe, but we instantly recognize it qualitatively when we hear it. That's not to say that other sounds aren't great and satisfying and inspirational to a picker and can lift him to great heights musically, but for some of us there might be a special sound that perhaps ties into a special experience and brings up emotional as well as other responses. Personally, I have two of these sounds in my head: the Sho~Bud sound Big E got on "Rose City Chimes," and the Emmons sound Big E got on "Touch My Heart." So far, I've only found these sounds (and not with Buddy's quality, incidentally I do love the quality and playability of most new guitars, and in fact I own a beautiful rosewood cabinet Fessenden. Basically, I could own any steel guitar that I wanted to own nowadays, but for some reason the only guitars that will scratch the itch I have right now are my 1965 Emmonses. I personally prefer my 65's to the 64's I've seen (thought the 64's are surely fine guitars). I do own a 64 woodneck Emmons. I'm not a mechanical genius, but according to the hours, hours and more hours I've spent on the phone with Mike Cass discussing this very topic, the later guitars have 9/16" changer axles which apparently give better leverage than the earlier 1/2" axles. Also, the 1965 changer fingers have the raise holes spaced for better mechanical advantage than the earliest guitars with the cast fingers. Additionally, the later 64-65 guitars have an improved changer pillar mounting system (wider base) which solved the occasional cabinet sag/warp problem that some of these old warhorses had. Now, if you want to know what the loudest, brashest, ballsiest Emmons I've ever played is, it's a 66 bolt-on that used to be owned by Larry Sasser. But the bolt-on is a whole 'nuther kettle of fish and a whole 'nuther group of guitars to discuss. Never heard a "raggedyassed" Emmons, but I'm sure one's out there somewheres. ------------------ |
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PAUL WARNIK Member Posts: 1417 |
posted 13 January 2002 11:54 AM
Herb-I agree with your wisdom of steel again-I currently have two 65 wraparounds-the one I keep set up as my bedroom guitar is one of the few truly magical instruments that I own-the others are Vance Terrys Bigsby and my 1929 model 66 Dobro-when Dave played the 65 thru my rack system-he confessed that it was the best sound that he had heard yet-I feel that the 65 wraparound is better than my 66 bolt-on and when I got the 65's I discovered why Cass makes such a fuss about playing them-I don't thing anything else compares |
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Buddy Emmons Member Posts: 1403 |
posted 13 January 2002 11:55 AM
Thanks Herb. Now that you've jogged the memory cells, I do recall the shaft and mount changes. At least there's one thing that hasn't failed me in my latter years, and that's my short attention span. |
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Herb Steiner Member Posts: 6119 |
posted 13 January 2002 12:50 PM
E Hey man, I can relate. One thing I've found at my age is that, despite the fact that I'm heavier, less nimble, and a whole lot more arthritic than I was in my 20's, it's just as easy to stick my foot in my mouth. Maybe easier, even. ------------------ |
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John Steele Member Posts: 2469 |
posted 13 January 2002 04:10 PM
quote: Aww, Herb, buddy... you just made my day... |
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Ernie Renn Member Posts: 2657 |
posted 14 January 2002 02:52 AM
Herb; You made John's day and smacked mine up-side the head. I sold that guitar to John a couple of years ago. It did sound great! I had the 5th lever installed at the factory. Clem Schmitz did some work on it and Eddie Lane (?) in Branson did, too. (I kept my fingers out of it for the most part.) Glad you like it, John! I miss it! ------------------ |
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Jay Ganz Member Posts: 1626 |
posted 14 January 2002 07:57 AM
 [This message was edited by Jay Ganz on 09 October 2002 at 09:42 AM.] |
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Jay Dee Maness Member Posts: 264 |
posted 14 January 2002 04:06 PM
If someone out there ever runs across a mint, original 1965 Emmons wraparound,black, I would be very interested in it. d10 of course.Also, I am looking for a set of pick-ups, built by Danny Shields called CT2 or crap trap. Danny has since died so there won`t be anymore of these pick-ups. Let me know if any of you guys run across either of these items, thanks, Jaydee Maness |
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Cal Sharp Member Posts: 731 |
posted 14 January 2002 05:14 PM
"I didn't know there was a bolt-on guitar until my cousin bought one. " Buddy strummed (unplugged) his cousin Chuck's guitar and then strummed his own. There was such a difference that he called Mr. Lashley and had him run out back of the factory and dig a bolt-on neck out of the trash heap and send it to him! C# |
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Mike Cass Member Posts: 546 |
posted 15 January 2002 10:04 PM
yep,gotta love those wraparounds!! I am currently working on Jim Loessberg's guitar, # 12-64-018.It has closed axle pillars as opposed to Dave R's(12-64-017),which has open pillars. Buddy Gene....how about"plumey"? . I love the mids on those old guitars.They were so rich and warm without affecting the 'ice". Ice? oops!!! there's another one IMHO theres nothing like playing a "wrapper" thru a Standel on a slow shuffle in a nightclub, with just a blue spotlight reflecting off of those old chrome fretboards, ...makes me want to load up JL's axe & go jam somewhere |
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PAUL WARNIK Member Posts: 1417 |
posted 17 January 2002 03:27 AM
Jay Dee-I have a pair of "Cassified" 1965 D-10 black mica wraparounds-what have you got to trade??? a "Lil G.T.O." maybe??? I'd prefer a ragtop-just kidding of course! |
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Nick Reed Member Posts: 2713 |
posted 21 January 2002 11:06 PM
Well, I was the one who put John Steele on to that 66 bolt-on Emmons a couple of years ago when Ernie decided to sell it. Sorry Ernie, but if you'll remember right, I think I tried to talk you into keeping it.(remember I said, "just stick it under the bed for now". . .Oh well) I have (2) bolt-on 66's (D-10 & S-10) and they are guitars I love playing. Nick My 66 Emmonses: |
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) on a mid-60's Sho-Bud played through a solid-state Standel amp, and a 65 wraparound Emmons played through a solid-state Standel amp.