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Author
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Topic: Intonation
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Kona
New Member From: Melbourne, Victoria, Australia
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posted 24 May 2000 04:28 AM
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Hi steelers,
I'm new to lap steels and I just wanted to ask a couple of questions before I purchase one. A friend has a lap steel he is offering to sell to me. I'm from Australia and lap steels are quite rare down here. I play guitar..but I wouldnt mind learning a new instrument. He's built it himself and designed it to resemble the weisennborn / kona style. He's quite renowned for his guitar set up and luthier skills - many of his customers are professionals! It's made of all mahogany with a rosewood fretboard and looks really beautiful. The whole vibe is incredibly good in terms of tone, resonance and sustain(from a guitar players point of view / experience). It has a custom made pickup which sounds great! The quality of work is top notch. What I'm worried about is this: How do I check if intonation is correct? Is correct intonation an issue with lap steel? or is it just a matter of hitting the right notes when you play? I've hooked it up to a tuner and tuned it to an open D (DADF#AD). The high D string is spot on when I place the bar over the fret markers - but with the other strings, I have to compensate buy placing the bar a little before or after the marker. Is this because the saddle is parallel to the nut. Do saddles on lap steels need to be on an angle like guitar saddles? Maybe his fret positions are marked in the wrong places? This is my main concern. Any advice would be really appreciated. |
J D Sauser
Member From: E-03700-DENIA (Costa Blanca), Spain
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posted 24 May 2000 06:29 AM
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Intonation is always an issue, but on steel guitars it's been somewhat ignored:
String length intonation on standard guitars has to do with the fact that when you press a string down to a fret, you are bending it down to the fret, thus it gets a thiny little bit longer, tension raises and therefor it changes (raises) pitch (slightlty). All strings will do that, but the grade of pitch change may be different from string to string as gauges and tension varies.
Intonable bridges are an attempt to compensate and/or equalize that difference between the strings. But if you change string gauge, material or maybe even just brand, that intonation may need to be re-tuned. If it's a fixed intonation bridge, like a slanted bridge (as found on most flat top guitars), you may have to stick to the manufacturers recommended strings, which would represent a limitation of tunings and such... not what you'd want on a steel guitar!
On the steel guitar we are not supposed to press the press strings down to the frets (but, you already knew that  ). However, there are some intonation issues because of bar pressure that result in the same effect as on the standard guitar. Some strings just detune more or quicker than others with very little pressure applied (E. g: a plain o.o20 or o.o22 tuned to G# or A will raise considerably more than most any other string on the guitar with very little bar pressure applied).
On the steel there is not much more you can do against that, than to compensate with your bar (slight slants), add or release pressure, to apply slight finger pulls on some strings or just learn to live with it.Check fretboard intonation: You can check if the fret board markers or the fret board itself, are where they should be by "chiming" one string of the instrument using your fingernail above the 5th, 7th and 12th FRET and octaves thereof. If the perfect "chime" comes out with your fingernail right over the fret, the fretboard is where it should be. Hope some of this makes sense and you'll find something of help. ------------------
.... J-D.[This message was edited by J D Sauser on 24 May 2000 at 06:30 AM.] [This message was edited by J D Sauser on 25 May 2000 at 01:47 PM.] |
gerry szostak
Member From: windsor,ca,
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posted 24 May 2000 11:39 PM
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You should check out the scale length against the fret spacing. The measurement from the nut to the 12th fret should equal the measurement from the 12th fret to the bridge. If they are not equal the higher up the neck you go the worse the intonation gets. |
Ted Smith
Member From: Sweet
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posted 25 May 2000 07:19 AM
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Right On! JD |
Mike D
Member From: Phx, Az
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posted 25 May 2000 10:02 AM
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I thought bad intonation was why they invented vibrato?  |
Bob Kagy
Member From: Lafayette, CO USA
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posted 25 May 2000 12:01 PM
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JD's post says it all, excellent!One more thing you may not be used to on the steel, is how much effect bar pressure has on intonation. Especially uneven bar pressure. It's easy to push harder on the nose end of the bar or the heel end, and unwittingly get a bad sounding interval, just because you've stretched some strings more than others. This even though your bar is straight or directly over the fret. You can test this just by varying your bar pressure from fore to aft while leaving it in one place as the strings ring. |
Kona
New Member From: Melbourne, Victoria, Australia
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posted 25 May 2000 08:36 PM
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Thanks for all the replies guys!! The explanation about the strings bending and bar pressure makes perfect sense. This makes me breath a little better - I thought was buying a dud lap steel! I guess it's something I'll have to keep in mind as I'm learning to play. I will be buying it by the way – I may post a picture in the future (can you do that on the forum?).JD, I’ve interpreted your advice on “chiming” as something similar to playing a harmonic on a guitar string. I am just touching the string above the fret with my fingernail and picking it so that it rings (chimes) out a note. Is this right? Or am I completely off? Gerry, I made the measurement in reference to the 12th fret. They checked out okay! Thanks for that. On a more lighter note - after reading some posts, I would like to say that it's good to see I'm in the company of some good natured fellow players. I've been playing the guitar for a few years now and the lap steel definitely feels like the right way to expand on my music. It feels good to know that I'm playing an instrument that is a bit more distinct. (Definitely here in Australia anyway!).
Once again, cheers! Troy from Down Under.
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J D Sauser
Member From: E-03700-DENIA (Costa Blanca), Spain
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posted 26 May 2000 05:51 AM
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quote:
...I’ve interpreted your advice on “chiming” as something similar to playing a harmonic on a guitar string. I am just touching the string above the fret with my fingernail and picking it so that it rings (chimes) out a note. Is this right?
YES! "Chiming", playing "harmonics" or "overtones"... it all just means the same (to some).
The use of the the tip of your fingernail was intended to help you "see" with better accuracy where exactly the right "point" is, and if in fact it is right above the respective frets.
Basically this is a musical way of checking what Gerry Szostak suggested by the means of measuring.
You know, soon you'll find out that the "exact" location of the fetboard on a steel guitar is somewhat relative. You will experience such nice things as "paralax" and some chords will have to be played somewhat off the markers to keep in tune with the rest of the world because of intonation and the particular tuning type you may use (JI)... quote:
...Or am I completely off?
Well, I can't tell... I don't know you that well yet... but well, you are going to play steel... maybe it'd be better you are not completely... you know... Thanks for all the nice coments! ------------------
.... J-D. |
Joel Bloom
New Member From: melb,vic,australia
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posted 31 May 2000 05:49 AM
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Hi, I just found this great site mucking around on the folks computer.And I found another Aussie on-line here! Kona, that sounds like a nice guitar, who's the luthier may I ask. I'm from the dandenongs, theres some nice makers up this way, Stuart Male, Sasha Amos etc. All you folks into slide should check out Australias Matt Walker, this fellows 27 years old and plays dobro and lap steel and guitar like you've never heard.(and he's a mate so you'll understand I'm not biased....)
I got given a great old hand made lap steel by a friend, its been passed down through his family, got it rewired, stringed etc and it sounds great. I've been playing slide in standard tuning for a while, including lap steel, am I the only standard tuner out there? I have loads of standard ideas chordal and lick wise, and I'd love to hear and share from others on this topic. My favourite players are Martin Simpson, Cooder,
Allman, Douglas and I nick ideas from any old country or hawaiian records I find. Love to here from you peoples, all the best. |
Mike D
Member From: Phx, Az
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posted 31 May 2000 01:37 PM
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Joel, being from down under you'll want to check out Don Morrison http://listen.at/donmo.guitars he builds metal body reso's. A real nice guy. |
Kona
New Member From: Melbourne, Victoria, Australia
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posted 31 May 2000 10:31 PM
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Joel, I'm not quite sure of the luthier's name - but I'll find out when I go to my guitar lessons tomorrow. My teacher has had his guitar refretted by him after being recommended by some professionals who come into the store where I get lessons. All I know is that he's an american and does all the repair work for The Music Swap Shop in Elgin St. Carlton (ever been there?). I had no Idea there were other makers local - but its good to see there are other lap players in Victoria.
I met Ben Harper on the weekend and got him to sign my lap steel! Check out the post!
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