If Clinesmiths are a grand less expensive than Scheerhorns, I'd hate to see the price of a Scheerhorn -- Sheesh!! And I thought new Dobros were expensive. These prices of the Clinesmiths and Scheerhorns make new Dobros look cheap as heck.

I've yet to understand why a resonator guitar is so expensive compared to a regular fretted guitar.

Case-in-point: you can buy a brand new Martin D-18 with a delux case for about $1250 if you shop around. This is a solid wood guitar with top-of-the line workmanship and materials -- the base professional model.

On the other hand, most resonator guitars are made of plywood, and the manufacturers don't have to worry about having a nice level fret board, since the strings are raised (that cuts out a lot of labor). Plus, resonator guitars don't have all that intricate internal bracing that a regular acoustic guitar has.

Furthermore the fittings and such for a resonator guitar aren't THAT expensive -- a Quarterman cone RETAILS for $45 (I'm guessing a manufacturer can buy it wholesale for a lot less). I'm also guessing the retail price for a good quality spider bridge and cover plate together is less than $200. So, maybe at most a resonator guitar has $500 worth of materials and parts in it (that's probably way on the high side).

So, how can Martin sell a D18 with delux case for $1250 retail through a middle man when these resonator manufacturers are selling direct to the customer for more than twice that and sometimes three times that?

Maybe it has to do with the relative numbers of each that are being sold. In other words, maybe not that many resonator guitars are being sold, so you can't get the economies of scale that a regular guitar maker gets (?)

Maybe another way to put this into perspective is to say that many of these resonator guitars cost more than a top of the line pedal steel -- now that, I just don't seem to understand. Any thoughts?

[This message was edited by Tom Olson on 19 March 2002 at 11:41 AM.]

IMHO _All_ the quality instruments these days are being built by fairly low production shops, the largest in terms of quantity (I think) is Paul Beard Guitars. Prices there start around $1,800(?) and sky is the limit. Tim Scheerhorn is the high price guy, starting at about $3500(?) with at least a year's wait. These folks and a bevy of others have no shortage of customers.

This is definitely a golden age for all resonator instruments and the demand for quality along with an appreciative market have pushed prices up.

All this is my .02 of course.

hp

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Howard Parker
poobah@resoguit.com
www.resoguit.com
ListOwner RESOGUIT

I'm aware that some resophonic builders use solid wood, but I'm not sure exactly which ones do and which ones don't. After a search of the resophonic builder links on this forum, I found only one builder who definitively stated that he used solid woods and that was Allen Guitars. None of the others said one way or the other.

If a builder is going to use solid woods, I'm sure he would say it very plainly. In fact, I'm almost positive that I read somewhere that all Beard's standard models are made of plywood.

Personally, I don't want a solid wood resonator guitar because I think it's a waste of money. The resonator cone is what makes the sound, not the body of the guitar. This is what the builder of McKenna guitars says about this subject (and I agree with him):

"Resonator guitar soundboxes should be built extra strong/tight to prevent vibration in order to get the best tone from the cone. Any excess vibration within the body will hurt the quality of the tone coming from the cone. This runs contrary to a flat top acoustic guitar which relys on vibration from its top (soundboard) to help produce a quality tone and sound. Laminated woods (plyed hardwoods) are often used in resonator guitar construction because they build a vibration free soundbox that allows the cone to work unhindered by excess vibration and give an optimum sound return. Don't let anyone tell you that an all solid wood resonator guitar sounds better than a laminated guitar, it's just not true. The laminated hardwoods used in resonator guitar construction are solid wood but are assembled in plys for strength. Some of the best sounding instruments being made and played today are laminated wood guitars. When considering buying an all solid wood guitar,make sure the builder is building with woods that are not too thin and that the guitar is braced properly. A soundwell adds a lot of strength and support to an all solid wood guitar and also gives it a beautiful sound. McKenna Guitars builds both solid and laminated wood resonator guitars."

Did you notice that he said "laminated hardwoods used in resonator guitar construction are solid wood?" Sounds like a bit of a contradiction, doesn't it? If he says it, then how many other resonator guitar builders are saying the same thing? In other words, are those resonator guitars really made of true solid wood as a Martin is?

The argument that solid woods cost more than plywood is pretty much a moot point anyway, seeing as how, apparently, my cost estimate of $500 worth of parts in an average resonator guitar was on the high side. You've said that a solid wood, mahogany tricone has $600 worth of parts and materials in it.

I'm assuming you're a low-volume builder. Based on that, you probably pay more for your parts and materials than builders who build a hundred or so guitars a year. In view of that, I'm assuming a builder can buy the parts and materials for a plywood, single-cone guitar for a lot less than $600 -- maybe half that.

Furthermore (although like I said, the material cost is now a moot point since we've established that the materials and parts cost far less than $500), you don't have to own a CNC machine to have a neck made on one (I'm sure you're familiar with jobbers who will do small runs of CNC work). Besides, I'm sure most builders buy blank necks from bulk suppliers anyway. On top of that, I'm also sure that the discounts Martin gets on their fret wire isn't going to make that big of a difference in the price of a guitar.

However, I (and I'm sure many others) would take issue with the contention that the wood in an average resonator guitar is a cut above the wood in a Martin guitar. After all, Martin has built its reputation on building high-quality instruments.

I'm not saying that the high-end resonator guitars like Scheerhorn and Clinesmith aren't worth the money. After all, as you have alluded to, the price is based on what the market will bear.

However, there are many resonator guitars being built that don't have wood bindings, that don't have solid woods, that don't have custom-made necks, and that don't have anything special on them and that are not any higher in quality than a Martin guitar. Still, these resonator guitars cost much more than $1250, which is what a D18 Martin can be purchased for.

Although I'm not a guitar builder, I can't see how it would take any more labor to build a plywood resonator guitar than it takes to build a solid wood flattop guitar. In fact, I'm convinced that it takes a lot longer to build a solid wood guitar with fretted strings than it does to build a plywood body, with little or no attention to neck action, and to assemble a resonator cone, spider bridge and cover plate. For one thing, the very thin sheets of solid wood used in a flattop guitar are more difficult to work with than pieces of plywood used in resonator guitars -- not to mention the precise internal bracing on a flattop which a plywood resonator does not have.

What I am saying is that there are several resonator guitar makers out there who build them out of plywood with standard parts AND, I'm also saying that if Martin can build a professional quality all-solid wood flattop guitar and sell it through a distribution network for $1250, than why can't someone build a plywood resonator guitar and sell it directly to the customer for a comparable price, or even a lower price.

[This message was edited by Tom Olson on 19 March 2002 at 07:17 PM.]

Look at the market. Regular guitars can be sold to millions more people than resophonic guitars, for a variety of reasons. The total resophonic guitar market is a mere fraction of the acoustic guitar market. There are probably more acoustic guitars being manufactured in one day than all combined resophonic makers make in a year.
If Martin was a single person or a small team selling only 50-100 guitars a year, then their prices would reflect that limited market. If Scheerhorn or Clinesmith could make (AND SELL if the market existed) 35,000 resophonic guitars a year, I'd bet good money their prices would reflect that.
As a matter of fact, there are more good quality low end resophonic guitars out there now than at any time in the past. If you're looking for a quality low end resophonic guitar, you have to look to Korea, to Samick's production of Regals, Flinthills, etc.

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Brad's Page of Steel
A web site devoted to acoustic & electric lap steel guitars

quote:

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I'm aware that some resophonic builders use solid wood, but I'm not sure exactly which ones do and which ones don't.

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In fact, most builders known to me will offer a choice.

quote:

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The resonator cone is what makes the sound, not the body of the guitar. This is what the builder of McKenna guitars says about this subject (and I agree with him):

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To this I respectfully disagree. I have a number of resonator guitars built by the same luthier, with both laminates and tonewoods. The guitars are the same body styles and use identical construction techniques and designs. I can tell you that tonal differences are there and are replicable from one instrument to another using identical materials.

Now, those differences may not be noticeable or important to you. They are to me and it allows me options when playing live, recording or when using alternate tunings.

So there you have it. One man's experience

Cheers,

hp

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Howard Parker
poobah@resoguit.com
www.resoguit.com
ListOwner RESOGUIT

Regarding hardwoods vs plywoods, my own feeling is that hardwoods & master-quality construction make a huge difference. I own a Caroll Benoit spruce/koa model and I haven't heard any plywod guitar yet that competes with it. I'll conceed that perhaps 50%+ of the equation is the cone hardware but the the rest of the equation is the specific variety of tonewood & the quality of the construction.

[This message was edited by Andy Volk on 20 March 2002 at 01:37 PM.]

I shouldn't have brought up the solid wood/plywood reso issue, because that really has nothing to do with what should have been my original point.

What I should have said is: I would like to get a professional-level Plywood reso (after all, Buck played one for years, and so did Jerry).

I know, I know, solid wood is better

What I don't understand is why the basic, plywood resos cost about the same(Dobro) or more(others) than a professional level, all solid-wood Martin D-18.

Seems like a plywood reso should be less expensive than a solid wood flattop. The parts and material for the plywood reso should be not much more, if at all, than the parts and mat'l for the flattop. The construction of a sound-well, plywood reso is a lot simpler than a flattop -- the front and back of the reso are perfectly flat and the only other parts of the body are the sound-well and the sides.

A back/side set of Rosewood and a Sitka top for your flattop will set you back $100.00. I don't even know where to find plywood with really good facing wood, I doubt it's much cheaper. The material cost is a small part of the total cost of making a guitar.

The construction of a sound-well, plywood reso is a lot simpler than a flattop -- the front and back of the reso are perfectly flat and the only other parts of the body are the sound-well and the sides.

In all seriousness, I'm willing to listen to you Mike. Can you explain in a bit more detail what makes building a Plywood reso more difficult that building a solid wood flattop?

The word "plywood" is not entirely accurate. At least not if your thoughts go to your local lumberyard.

This is a special use laminate which is faced (usually) with a layer of some other cosmetic tone wood. This final layer really does not effect the tonal characteristics of the guitar.

As for plywood...I've actually played several resonator guitars built from very high quality _construction_ plywoods.

_NOT_ a pretty picture!!!

hp

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Howard Parker
poobah@resoguit.com
www.resoguit.com
ListOwner RESOGUIT

quote:

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Personally, I don't want a solid wood resonator guitar because I think it's a waste of money. The resonator cone is what makes the sound, not the body of the guitar.

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Sorry you had so much trouble with your Dobro.

I apologize for mis-speaking. You're right, the body of a resonator guitar probably does make a contribution to the overall sound of a guitar -- however minuscule that contribution might be.

I'm sure you realize from my post that I was quoting the builder of McKenna guitars when I said that the cone is what makes the sound in a resonator guitar. I'm sure Mr. McKenna is well-respected, so I suggest that, contrary to what you've said, I am not misinformed.

As I think I've already made clear, I don't have a lot of experience with resonator guitars, so I might suggest that you contact Mr. McKenna and tell him that HE is misinformed. In fact, I dare you -- no, double-dog dare you

Regarding what I think is a waste of money, I offer this simple (at least I think it's simple) analogy: I have a Mustang GT. It's a fast car for the money -- at $24,000 for a 2002 model. I could have spent three times that to get a some slinky foreign job -- maybe an Aston Martin, or a Jaguar, or a Porsche, or Mercedes -- and I'd have been able to go maybe just a bit faster than my 4.6 liter dual overhead cam, V8 Mustang GT. But, you see, I don't want to spend 3 times as much to go maybe just a bit faster. In fact, I like my Mustang GT.

Ergo -- spending an extra $50 grand for a car that I don't want seems like a waste of money to me. To some people, the extra $50 grand isn't a waste of money.

I may or may not be able to appreciate what little difference in sound there is between a $1200 Dobro and a $3600 custom job. The thing is, I don't think the extra little something in sound is worth spending three times as much.** So, if you want to spend $3600 for a solid wood Scheerhorn, or Beard, or whatever, then go for it, Dude!! Me, I guess I'll have to settle for the $1200 60D and I'll probably be happy with it, although I still think it should be less expensive than that (and, heck, I could even buy a nice PSG for the difference).

**whenever I, or anyone else, says, "I think this," or "I don't think that," it usually is referring to a personal opinion, and is not intended to be an affront to anyone else who happens to have a different opinion

[This message was edited by Tom Olson on 24 March 2002 at 05:50 PM.]

Andy, I will start a separate topic on Benoit Resonators tomorrow evening. I'll answer your question then and I will also post photos. Wait until you see the 10 string.

[This message was edited by HowardR on 24 March 2002 at 11:19 PM.]

quote:

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So, if you want to spend $3600 for a solid wood Scheerhorn, or Beard, or whatever, then go for it, Dude!!

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Brad's Page of Steel
A web site devoted to acoustic & electric lap steel guitars