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Author
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Topic: spacing and slant angle geometry concept
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Scott Houston
Member From: Oakland, CA
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posted 14 February 2003 09:17 AM
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Please bear with me and tell me if this makes any sense. True or false:1) If the spacing between strings on one particular instrument is narrower than that on another, it follows that any given slant angle will be greater on the instrument with the narrower spacing in order to get the same notes in tune. 2) The further you play any given interval up the neck on any instrument, the less you need to slant, because the notes (frets) get closer together. If both of the above are true, then wouldn't it make sense on a steel guitar for the string spacing to be wider at the nut than at the bridge in order to maintain the same amount of slant angle for any given interval anywhere on the neck? (Visualize the bridge spacing as normal and the strings fanning out slightly as they go toward the nut.) There must be an equation that would show how the string spacing would need to increase on any given scale length to maintain a uniform slant angle. It might be a bit distracting at first, but the right hand would hardly notice if it stays anchored in one area. Has anyone ever built a steel this way? It's a little ridiculous, I know, just curious... |
Jesse Pearson
Member From: San Diego , CA
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posted 14 February 2003 09:29 AM
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Don't forget to facter scale length into to the equation. Short scale seems to work best for me, I would never use a steel that was wider at different ends. |
Michael Johnstone
Member From: Sylmar,Ca. USA
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posted 14 February 2003 10:12 AM
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Several people have built steels with equal spacing at both ends and that makes sense to me. Joaquin's last guitar(built by Chas Smith)was 3/8ths at both ends making the strings totally parallel all the way up the neck. |
Ray Montee
Member From: Portland, OR, USA
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posted 14 February 2003 10:21 AM
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IS THIS TECHY KNOWLEDGE........going to improve your playing any? Practice..... |
Scott Houston
Member From: Oakland, CA
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posted 14 February 2003 10:27 AM
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Believe me Mr. Montee, my interest is far more with practicing than it is with the hardware of the trade. Just a passing thought here before I get back to work! |
Rick Aiello
Member From: Berryville, VA USA
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posted 14 February 2003 11:26 AM
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Y'all might find this helpful .... kinda explains why your ears are the key in slant bar style ....
http://steelguitarforum.com/Forum2/HTML/002695.html I wrote this out about a year ago .. but we have some new guys that might get a "thing or two" from it. Ray ... I'm beginnin' to take these "techy" comments personal   ------------------
www.horseshoemagnets.com [This message was edited by Rick Aiello on 14 February 2003 at 11:48 AM.] |
Jeff Au Hoy
Member From: Honolulu, Hawai'i
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posted 14 February 2003 12:17 PM
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quote:
I would never use a steel that was wider at different ends.
The Rick frying pan (for one) string spacing is wider on one end...although in reverse of what Scott was proposing. |
Jesse Pearson
Member From: San Diego , CA
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posted 14 February 2003 12:26 PM
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Hi Rick, Could you please explain what "JI and ET" stand for. I was thinking of doing just what you did with the tuner, but you saved me from having to do it. Did you use a short scale neck? John Ely has also talked about this reality of steel playing. I myself just tune the open strings and go from there, does changing the cents here and there make a noticeable difference in the playability of the instrument? On a dark stage my boss has a light on either side that both come on when a string is in tune. I was under the impression that the tempered nature of tuning was built into the tuners automatically? |
Rick Aiello
Member From: Berryville, VA USA
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posted 14 February 2003 01:02 PM
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JI is Just Intonation ... a tuning system based on the harmonic overtones produced by the tonic note. Sometimes referred to as a "Beatless" tuning. ET is Equal Tempermenet .... a "tempered" tuning system where the notes in an octave are equally divided into 12 equal semitones (100 cents apart). Pianos, spanish guitars ... "fixed" instruments ... primarily use ET to enable them to play any chords in any key ... with consistant outcomes. Steel guitars, harmonicas, symphonic instruments, singers .... primarily use JI. The major drawback of JI is that you cannot have the 2nd, 5th and 6th played together and remain "Beatless". I know alot of folks like the E13/9 and either go ET or just avoid certain combinations because of this "clashing".
Jesse, all the great non-pedal players that you have mentioned lately use/used JI ... Some electronic tuners now offer presets for JI, ET, mean tone etc ... but most guitar tuners are ET. Personally, I set my C (hi) using a tuner ... then use harmonics to tune the rest ... but it is handy to know the JI deviations so you can use a tuner on stage, noisey environmets, etc... quote:
Did you use a short scale neck
These JI deviations from ET (listed in the thread I pointed to) are independent of scale length, string spacing, etc ... The cents concept is an ET "thing" (so are frets for that matter),hence my descriptions given as ... "deviations from ET" I don't want another "JI vs ET" war ... plenty of that over in the Pedal Steel archieves ... but Steel guitar is one of the few polyphonic instruments that can play in JI in any key by using micro-adjustments with the bar ... guided by your EAR.... why give that advantage up ??? Just my opinions... PS I added some stuff to my website ... let the Hula Girl load ... she's worth it ------------------
www.horseshoemagnets.com [This message was edited by Rick Aiello on 14 February 2003 at 07:45 PM.] |
Jesse Pearson
Member From: San Diego , CA
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posted 14 February 2003 01:45 PM
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Rick, you really got me thinking I need to study this topic alot deeper than I have. I might have to e-mail you about this further on down the road. I hate to think that I'm not tuning my steels up as good as they can be. I have read posts from the pedal steelers about using harmonics verses just the tuners, it is a very interesting subject. Thanks... |
Jeff Au Hoy
Member From: Honolulu, Hawai'i
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posted 14 February 2003 02:12 PM
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Regarding the tuning issue... Electronic tuners and fancy jargon don't really do much for you. All you need to do is slap that lapsteel up against your dominant ear. Get those strings "in tune" as close as you can hear. Then throw it on your lap and fiddle around with some open-string and "fretted" chords you think you might end up playing. If those come out sounding funky then tweak it a little until they sound okay. Being a little off tuning-wise isn't going to hurt your single string work or your two-note harmonies. There's no frets, so you just make the fine adjustments with the bar as you play. |
Rick Aiello
Member From: Berryville, VA USA
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posted 14 February 2003 02:27 PM
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Jeff, you're startin' to sound like Ray For those of us who like fancy jargon and physics .... here is some good bathroom reading ... This guy could "lose" the noisy backround but it's explained well...
http://home.earthlink.net/~kgann/tuning.html Now for the serious student ...
http://www.smt.ucsb.edu/mto/issues/mto.98.4.4/mto.98.4.4.scholtz.html Oh, while I'm at it ... for those who think there are only 12 notes per octave ... check this out  (a sub-page from the first link) ... http://home.earthlink.net/~kgann/Octave.html
This stuff sure isn't "new-fangled" nor is it unimportant ...
Will it make up for: ... a lack of ear/hand/eye coordination
... having a deaf ear
... a lack of imagination
... being creatively challenged NO Can it be a substitute for hard work and determination ... NO WAY But if you are passionate about something, don't you want to know as much as you can about it ... I do
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www.horseshoemagnets.com [This message was edited by Rick Aiello on 14 February 2003 at 03:04 PM.]
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Jesse Pearson
Member From: San Diego , CA
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posted 14 February 2003 02:56 PM
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Funny thing about tuning I've noted over the years when not in a band and busking solo on the streets at night in downtown San Diego. I've been tuning string instruments since I was a child and I can do a pretty good job by ear most of the time if I'm not tired. I noticed that when I'm busking late into the night (8 to 10 hrs non stop) and just using my ear to tune up, I don't make as much money as when I use the tuner thru out the night? Some of my music buddies who have hung out with me during these times are just as baffled as I am. I sound tuned up, but the tuner shows how much in cents I get out when I get tired. The point here is that it sounds O.K. being a little out, but the public gets affected some how and they don't tip as well. Also, I think it's best to let your muscular memory work off of the same reference points as much as possible, less tension and fatigue on the long haul.Rick, you web page is great looking now! I asked Jeff this question before but didn't get an answer, what is the scooped out sound you guys are getting on your steels and what would be a good example to listen to.
P.S. Ray, thanks for those tunes to listen to about the moan sound from the Ricky. [This message was edited by Jesse Pearson on 14 February 2003 at 03:02 PM.] |
Jeff Au Hoy
Member From: Honolulu, Hawai'i
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posted 14 February 2003 03:02 PM
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u sure there ain't a little post hoc going on there? naw, just kidding Jesse |
Jesse Pearson
Member From: San Diego , CA
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posted 14 February 2003 03:04 PM
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duh, what the heck is a "post hoc" jeff? |
Bobby Lee
Sysop From: Cloverdale, North California, USA
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posted 14 February 2003 03:08 PM
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While it makes some sense from a pure logic standpoint, I don't think I could get used to a steel guitar that was wider at the nut than at the bridge. Having them equal is as far as I could go.
As for a formula for making the bar slants the same everywhere... I think that all of the strings would have to converge to a single point at the bridge. That's highly impractical.------------------
 Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (C6add9), Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6), Roland Handsonic |
Jeff Au Hoy
Member From: Honolulu, Hawai'i
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posted 14 February 2003 03:10 PM
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Jesse, it's the area on a pig rear of the hind legs.
...sorry about not replying to your earlier question...I'm still trying to put the sound to words.[This message was edited by Jeff Au Hoy on 14 February 2003 at 03:15 PM.]
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Rick Aiello
Member From: Berryville, VA USA
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posted 14 February 2003 03:21 PM
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"hoc" .. thats what we call spit around here Jesse, I call a tone with lots of bass, just the right amount of treble and not much middle .... a scooped/hollow sound. Get some of the Ionas from B. Clarke !!! I use to set my mids (135 watt twin) on around 8 (as JB recommends in his instructional material) ... Then I started listenin' to Bruce Clark's restorations and wondered why I couldn't get a sound like Dick McIntire, Andy Iona, etc... I started hangin' around the pedal steel section and the electronics section and started hearin' their views on the Mids. I have a graphic EQ (my ONLY effect) and dropped the 800 Hz just about out ... man what a difference. Bass = 10
Treble = 4-5
Middle = 2
Cut at 800 Hz
Ricky Frypan .. scooped ... ala electric Sol Hoopii Bass = 10
Treble = 1-2
Middle = 7-8
Ricky Bakelite .... lush ... ala JB These are just my opinions and my own terminology...
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www.horseshoemagnets.com [This message was edited by Rick Aiello on 14 February 2003 at 04:20 PM.]
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Jeff Au Hoy
Member From: Honolulu, Hawai'i
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posted 14 February 2003 03:36 PM
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That's really interesting stuff, Rick.
When I was starting out, Bobby Ingano would kindly tell me that mids have no place in Hawaiian steel (that is, as far as Rogers/AhSee/HewLen/Keli'i-style playing goes)--to this day, I turn the mids way down, if not off completely. But I would have to disagree and say that JB does achieve the scooped out sound rather nicely in many of his recordings...although perhaps not as extreme as did McIntire. |
Jesse Pearson
Member From: San Diego , CA
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posted 14 February 2003 04:14 PM
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Rick, I've been thinking of using an e.q. pedal with a tube screamer set up as a clean volume boost to beef up the sound of my Magnatones thru my fender champ or deluxe. I already set the amps up with no treble and full bass, along with the heavier gauged strings I use, it sounds pretty good. Is Dick McIntire's sound considered an extreme "scooped out" tone? I like Dick's tone alot. |
Rick Aiello
Member From: Berryville, VA USA
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posted 14 February 2003 04:37 PM
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Again, in my opinion .... the McIntire tone I hear on those CDs is a more full bodied sound ...I have some early electric Sol Hoopii that a fellow 30's fan sent me .... and those on Toomba and the Iona CDs have more of that hollow thing goin' on than the DMs. Jeff, I agree that JB can get any tone he wants, at any time ... but his later recordings (By Request, for example) are far more "dark" than say ... his stuff with Rex Allen. Of course I'm partial to the "Bakelite years" ------------------
www.horseshoemagnets.com [This message was edited by Rick Aiello on 14 February 2003 at 04:40 PM.] |
Bill Creller
Member From: Saginaw, Michigan, USA
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posted 14 February 2003 06:16 PM
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Hi Rick The "scooped" sound I think you are talking about seems to me to be the natural tone from a really good early frypan, like the one Hal Smith has which once belonged to Dick McIntyre. I have been told by qutie a few old timers (older than me that is) that Dick would go to the Rickenbacher factory and play as bunch of frypans to see which ones he wanted. He had quite a few.
Bill |
Scott Houston
Member From: Oakland, CA
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posted 14 February 2003 07:12 PM
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Rick,
Thanks for referencing that prior post. Great stuff! I come from a background of many years playing fretless electric bass, which might be part of why I'm drawn to the steel. I'm definitely used to hearing my intonation instead of "looking" at it. Intonation certainly is a new ball game on the steel though, an impossible three notes in tune with one metal bar! |
Page Wood
Member From: Los Angeles
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posted 14 February 2003 08:27 PM
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I may be out of line here, but I'm amazed by this entire discussion. If you're interested in deadly accurate pitch, go play a synth. The MAIN attraction of slide guitar for me (and theremin or fretless bass) is that wonderful emotive INACCURACY . I love the sound of slants BECAUSE they are slighty off! Yes, you should strive for proper pitch, but we got glisses and vibratos here- there's a reason these things don't have frets !!! |
Rick Aiello
Member From: Berryville, VA USA
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posted 14 February 2003 08:59 PM
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Personally, I find it comforting to know that there are more than 700 pitches in an octave ... increases the probability that I may actually be on one.------------------
www.horseshoemagnets.com |
Jesse Pearson
Member From: San Diego , CA
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posted 14 February 2003 10:40 PM
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I think the violin and the steel have alot in common. Don helms sound reminds me of the country fiddle at times and so I'm gonna study how those guys approach their lines. I play jazz sax and I can tell you its no fun jamming with a stand up bass player who's intonation is off here and there. You have to have deadly accurate pitch when its time for every one to punch together, and I sure as heck don't need a synth for that. This discussion wasn't about glisses and vibrato. Even with sliding around you have to balance tension and release with when to arrive at an exact pitch with other instruments. I study advance vocal harmony because it's another way to understand the potential of the steel. Vocal harmonies have glisses and vibrato, but its not there to cover up poor intonation, all the voices still gotta watch their pitch. Learning about achieving a greater intonation at the starting gate is what I got out of this thread and I understand how it will help you to be a better sounding player. Thanks for the deep kung fu...  P.S. I also learned what that scooped out sound was, it sounds like a fender single pole piece pickup enhanced with the Ricky shoes played clean. [This message was edited by Jesse Pearson on 14 February 2003 at 11:23 PM.] |
Andy Volk
Member From: Boston, MA
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posted 15 February 2003 04:29 AM
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What an interesting thread! Rick, thanks again for teahing the science behind what we do. Most of it is over my head but a little filters in now and then. I think I should cede the "lord of the links" title to you.As for the issue of mids, Leo Fender considered midrange as "fluff" and specifically designed the Telecaster and the early Fender steels to emphasize the highs and lows. Intonation on an instrument without frets is a big deal. There are certainly genres (like certain types of backporch, trad blues) where inacurrate intonation contributes to the "vibe" and sense of emotion but in general, I like to hear things in tune! I'm playing a lot with a fiddle player these days and I can tell you that this experience is an intonation kettle of worms. |
Jesse Pearson
Member From: San Diego , CA
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posted 15 February 2003 09:07 AM
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Rick, I have read the sites on "Just Intonation Vs Equal Intonation". I need some help understanding why great steel players tune up with "Just Intonation". My confusion is based on the fact that the guitar, piano, fretted bass and horns use the "Equal Intonation" approach. Why would a steel player use "Just Intonation" to tune the open strings, wouldn't this make them sound out of tune compared to the other instruments? Also, "Just Intonation" doesn't sound likes it's capable of using polytonal approaches? From what I read, it seems our ears are naturally tuned to "Just Intonation", but we have been brought up on "Equal Intonation" so that is what we are used to. It also seems that for the live music scene and getting people to party and drink, "Equal Tuning" provides that kind of mood better. I realize now that when I am tired, I think I might be leaning towards "Just Intonation" when I tune by ear and just never knew it? Can you clarify why the great steel players tuned by "Just Intonation" and didn't sound out on the open strings compared to the rest of the band, I must be missing something obvious? Thanks... |
Rick Aiello
Member From: Berryville, VA USA
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posted 15 February 2003 10:03 AM
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My thoughts are...Tuning the OPEN strings on your steel to JI gives you a "head start" .... kinda like a sprinter setting up in starting blocks .... puts you in the proper position to take off .. The running (playin'in tune) is up to you. Playin' in JI is a much different thing than tunin' up in JI ... particularly when you use slant bar technique (hence my post last year). As far as your back up instruments: There is a HUGE difference in the EXTENT of the harmonic (overtone) content of a steel guitar vs a spanish guitar, piano etc .. In those instruments the fundamental and the first "few" partials are dominant ... the higher harmonics are really not that prominant ... Therefore, when the rhythm guitar plays a C and E combination ... in ET ... you can hear the "clash" between the E note (tuned ET) vs the E partial comin' off the C string (14 cents flat of the ET "E").... but after a lifetime of hearing that ... your brain expects it .. adjusts to it .. no biggie. When a good steel guitar plays the same C and E combination ... the EXTREMELY RICH harmonic series present sets up a sceanario where it's not just the fundamentals that are being heard ... it's the first 9-10 partials too ... which are very audible ... and they will clash with each other big time if the steel is tuned ET. Your steel needs to be in tune with itsef ... first and formost ... Fitting in with ET instruments is necessary (of course) but the great steelers we all love use "mico-adjustments" of the bar to fit in as well as possible. Basically ... if there was a High school chorus singing Ava Maria ... they might sound good ... Put Luciano Pavarotti in with them ... sure their little "intonational deficiencies" may clash with "The Big P"s perfect pitch, etc ... But wouldn't the chorus be all the better for having him there .. Best I can do ....
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www.horseshoemagnets.com [This message was edited by Rick Aiello on 15 February 2003 at 10:29 AM.] |
Jesse Pearson
Member From: San Diego , CA
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posted 15 February 2003 10:41 AM
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Thanks Rick, I need to start recording my steel, so I'll lay down a rhythm section and tune the steel open to "Just Intonation" and see what I come up with. This might just be one of the most important lessons on steel I'll ever have. Right on bro...  |
Andy Volk
Member From: Boston, MA
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posted 15 February 2003 12:16 PM
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quote:
Personally, I set my C (hi) using a tuner ... then use harmonics to tune the rest
Would you mind posting exactly how you tune by harmonics, Rick. Jazz guitar Johnny Smith uses this method and he is justifiably famous for the beauty of his close-voiced chord work. As my frontal lobe is a bit challenged on this topic, I'd appreciate a ste-by-step. |
Page Wood
Member From: Los Angeles
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posted 15 February 2003 12:22 PM
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Were talking about two different things here- most people's ears only detect intonation as "color" (think about what a chorus fx box does). Vibratos cover quarter tones- the fiddle and bass player not keeping up are playing FLAT- that's a long way from the cent differences of intonation. |
Jesse Pearson
Member From: San Diego , CA
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posted 15 February 2003 12:27 PM
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Page, could you please go a little deeper into what you mean by "the fiddle and bass not keeping up and are playing flat". Thanks |
Rick Aiello
Member From: Berryville, VA USA
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posted 15 February 2003 01:45 PM
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Andy, I posted a new thread on harmonic tuning ... Page, you are over my head here  I have studied vibrato pretty thoroughly ... the greats (instrumental and/or vocal) ... do NOT use vibrato to make up for bad intonation .. just the opposite actually. Properly executed .... the note that you want "featured/colored" will be found at the CENTER of the wave pattern. The rate and the extent as well as onset can vary greatly .... giving you an almost infinite range of the vibrato .. But from Sol Hoopii to Pavarotti ... one thing is constant ... the featured note is dead center in the pattern. ------------------
www.horseshoemagnets.com |
Graham Griffith
Member From: Glebe, N.S.W., Australia
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posted 16 February 2003 12:40 AM
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Rick,I've just caught up on this thread and I'm not sure where this fits but ... being an E13th pedal steel player (Zane Beck's tuning) from way back, my tonal preferences on a Nashville 400 amplifier are:
Bass: +10 (fully boosted)
Mids: 800 Hz -10 (fully attenuated)
Highs & "presence": flat
If I want a really rolled off "jazzy" sound then I change the centre (Australian/English spelling) frequency of the mids to 1 Khz (or thereabouts (fully attenuated)
Other factors would have to be my instrument's sound. my touch etc.
These settings seem to work well with my non pedal guitars (Gibson EH185 & Eharps) but recently I've been using an Electro Harmonix Freedom amp @ 15 watts with an 8" speaker (which handles the non pedal guitars beautifully and also supports the pedal steel at "sensible" playing levels).
I talked to Jerry Byrd about the dark sound on his last album ... and this, as he acknowledged, was a mixing scenario ... not a matter of his personal tone ... the mix on the album is dark ... a no win situation ... still great playing. Graham[This message was edited by Graham Griffith on 16 February 2003 at 12:42 AM.] |
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