I was reading some of Andy Volk's Lap Steel book, specifically the Sol Hoopii section, and saw his C#minor tuning spelled:

E
C#
G#
E
D
B

what caught my eye was the D in there, and I thought, why would you want that a half step from yer tonic in there? (That's where I like the vodka) Then I realized it's the same interval as in JB's tuning:

E
C
A
G
E
C#

Now I realize this allows you to "major up" your relative minor (sorry for the technical terms) so that you can form a C, Am, or A.

Granted my playing isn't as far along as my understanding of theory, but I don't really understand why you would want (more specifically how you would use) that major chord available there. What am I missing, or what can I listen to, to hear that being utilized. Thanks for any input.....

Carter

[This message was edited by Carter York on 23 January 2004 at 06:32 AM.]

That sort of stuff (extended chords) is starting to click the more I learn to spell all the chords, maj and minor, and start to move into that area....thanks again...

B   D    E    G#   C#   E
5   7b   1    3    6    1

I think of JB's C6/A7 as more of a "combo tuning" (Am7/A7) ...

C#  E    G    A    C    E
3   5    7b   1    3b   5 

Having that I7 chord on strings 6,5,4,3 is VERY handy.

Thats how I look at 'em anyway ... hope that helps ...

E
C#
G#
E
B
E

You can see it's just Open E with the B string sharped to C#. Alot of guys don't look at it as C#m7, but E6 tuning. They are relative to each other. The C# in Jerry's tuning is so at the Open/12th fret, you can play A7 on the bottom strings. You loose the full strum chord of the basic C6 tuning. Jerry used a 7 string so that he had both tunings together. If you look at the D note in the tuning you are describing relative to E6, the D is the flatted 7th. So now you have the flatted 7th and the 13th of E6/C#mb9? I would like to know where the tuning your talking about came from and when if ever, Sol used this tuning? I like to record copy Dick McIntire on the regular C#m7(Sol) because I hear it alot, maybe more than F#9. I have seen others say that the tuning from Andy's book was Sol's tuning, as found on some tuning charts. I have noticed that these tuning charts don't have sol's real C#m7 tuning. After searching for an answer, I am convinced that the older steel players who lived back then, say that the (Open E, #C) tuning is the one he used the most and is found on some of his most famous recordings. If I am wrong, please correct me. This tuning has an older, less evolved sound compared to C6 and I find it easier to get that old timey Hawaiian sound out of it because it can't do as much. But C6 is still my main tuning.

[This message was edited by Jesse Pearson on 23 January 2004 at 09:22 PM.]

Thanks, that does help...I hadn't really thought of those tunings in terms of E and A, but rather C# and C, so that opens things up quite a bit...

Now, back to my spelling charts.....thanks again...

Thanks for your reply, too, good info there.......I took that tuning from p. 13 of Andy's Lap Steel Guitar book. I don't know this stuff well enough to know when/if he used this on any particular recording. I just know every time I had to go look and see who was playing a crazy tune from "Waikiki is Good Enough for Me", it was Sol!!

And while we're talking about tunings, I have seen tunings referred to as "close-voiced" on several occasions, including the above mentioned C#minor. What does that mean?

Thanks Mike, can anyone else chimn in on the acoustic/electric tunings that Sol used. Thanks...I wonder why Dick McIntire never used the electric Sol tuning?

[This message was edited by Jesse Pearson on 23 January 2004 at 08:25 AM.]

Forward Slants

C#  E

3   5
4
    6
5
    7
6   1

7   2
1  
    3
2   4

3   5

vs....

Reverse Slants

C   E

    5
3
4   6
    
5   7
    1
6
    2
7
1   3
    4 
2
    5
3

I'm not very comfortable with reverse slants on "interior strings" ... must be a mental block or something

The other advantages listed in that post are also important to me ... but this is my main reason for goin' C6/A7 on a 6 stringer.

[This message was edited by Rick Aiello on 23 January 2004 at 10:16 AM.]

I was thinking that Sol and Dick went electric at the same time from the basic C#m7 acoustic tuning and maybe they each altered it differently so their new tunings would sound different from each other? They both just changed the last 2 strings for their new electric tunings? Sol EB to BD and Dick EB to F#A#. See, this is what happens when things are kept secret, history is lost.

Sorry Andy, didn't see your post in time. It seems alot of famous guys used the basic C#m7 acoustic tuning back in the day. I know we can use any tuning to play a song alot of times, but I find it satisfying to know a famous musicians tuning and kinda step into his shoes for a second when trying to record copy their songs. I find hearing tunings/chords to be the hardest thing when your starting out on steel.

[This message was edited by Jesse Pearson on 23 January 2004 at 10:50 AM.]

E
C
A
G
E
C#

Holy Toledo!! I started messing around with strings 6,5,4,3 and all of the sudden, I had the dominant sound I had been yearning for for too long...Having 'transferred over' from Spanish Guitar, I spent a lot of time orienting everything off of the C bass note...learning the major and minor triads and the different root notes up the neck. I guess I got pretty stuck there, b/c (again) all of the sudden, I realized that knowing the intervals between the strings meant with any/all of them as the tonic. So with the A string (which I know the notes of pretty well from Sp. gtr) as the root, it changed EVERYTHING. THEN I realized that everything I knew from strings 1-5 is still right where I left it...THEN I realized how that dominant sound (root on string 3/A) had been on strings 5,4,3 this entire time! THEN suddenly I am making all of these connections up and down the neck and the entire concept of 'pockets' totally makes sense. I had to stop and breathe for a few minutes. Then I drew out a few charts with different strings as the tonic, studied em for a few minutes and started playing again, and actually said "Is this ME playing!?"

Can't thank y'all enough for all the info you continue to post and explain!

gotta go......might be gone for a while....

..and might not play any sixths for awhile either.......

quote:

---

The intervals for C# to E is a minor 3rd, why not use the 5th and 4th strings of basic C6 or strings 3 and 2 for those same slants, does it make a big difference in timbre?

---

I do use the 5 & 4 strings (E,G) as well as strings 3 & 2 (A,C). That's kinda my point ...

For the continuous, non-interupted flow of a harmonized melody ... for me ... it is easier to stay on two strings and employ forward slants, instead of reverse slants on the bass strings.

For some "nut-sy" reason, just the opposite is true ... for me ... on harmonizing string 1 ...

I prefer reverse slants (strings 1&2 and strings 1&4), big-time ...

Basically, string 5 ... being an octave lower than my major melody string ... becomes my "focal point" for bassy melody alternatives.

I usually employ 1 harmony note with my melody note 95% of the time ... so I want that 6th string to be available and I just "suck" at gettin' reverse slants in that neck of the woods ??

To me, "minor intervals" (m3 & m6) scream forward slant and "major intervals" (M3 & M6) scream reverse slant when moving up and down the neck ... regardless of fret/chord/homebase where the run starts.

So I see the C6/A7 as ...

m3 ... m3 ... M2 ... m3 ... M3

and the C6 as ...

M3 ... m3 ... M2 ... m3 ... M3

Just 'splainin' my own "fretboard" visualization ...

------------------

www.horseshoemagnets.com

[This message was edited by Rick Aiello on 23 January 2004 at 01:27 PM.]

Low D below the root plus a higher C# above the root = 13th !!!

Also, the tunings Sol used on his electric recordings of 12th St. Rag etc. have not been definatively stated....and can't be, except by someone who was there "On the Day" so to speak.
There are sections of 12th St. Rag that some of us consider were played on a 7 string.

Some parts of his electric recordings would lead one to believe that his top three strings were E C# B. (as the E note in the main first lick of 12th St, Rag is NOT an open string... he must have played the run at the 4th and third frets on the 2nd and 3rd strings.) although whatever he did live could have been different.
The 7 string guitar theory comes from the fact the fact that although he played the "Low" section live, on the record it was in OCTAVES. Then figure this, if string 6 was a low "E" that makes strings 2 and 3 a C# and a G#. This is NOT the case.
You could even take the speculation one or two stages further and MAYBE suggest that the recordings COULD have been made using TWO guitars....Remember that in those days, Top Pro Players jealously guarded their tunings and "Tricks" and would also have at their disposal the very latest in developments. ( When did Rick introduce a 7 string, and what year did Sol record his famous electric sessions ? )
Bruce Clarke's restoration work on the "Radio Sol" CD is a revelation...I have heard players emulating Sol's version of 12th St. Rag on a 6 string, but, using an "Open" first string in the run...Sol also MAY have done this "Live" but most certainly NOT on the record.
Baz
BTW please excuse the spelling mistakes... my eyes are not so good these days..BUT.... my ears still are.
www.waikiki-islanders.com

------------------

quote:

---

Steel players do it without fretting

---

http://www.waikiki-islanders.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk

[This message was edited by basilh on 23 January 2004 at 07:22 PM.]

quote:

---

To be honest, that C6/A7 voicing sounds kinda corn ball to me and I think it was intended to sound that way.

---

quote:

---

I wonder why Dick McIntire never used the electric Sol tuning?

---

         
         Dmai13/C          Fmai7              
 E----------2----------------0----------
 C----------2---------------------------
 A----------0---------------------------
 G----------0----------------5---------
 E----------0----------------5---------
 C----------0----------------5--------

The C6th doesn't work as well for Folk, Celtic and modal music where you need a more open sound without a 6th note so I prefer open D or E for that music or DADGAD where the lack of 3rd is a big advantage.

I'm interested in learning some of the Gypsy Jazz tunes and Gypsy styled jazz standards. There are a lot of dom 7ths, minor,dim, 6ths, 9ths, and I'm sure many altered chords.

I began with the 8 string C6/A7 and have evolved to this on 8string resophonic with a pedal lower on the second string:

E
C#.... -C (P)
A
G
E
D
C
A

The D was orininally C#, but since I have a C# on the second string, I opted for the D.

 E|-----|-----|
 C|-----|-----|
 A|---7-|---7-|
 G|---7-|---7-|
 E|-----|---7-|
 C|---8-|-----|

quote:

---

Like you, I prefer the high-string dominant chords found in slant positions.

---

H--->L
E C# A F# D# C# B A

First off, you've got your min7 on strings 1-4, minor on strings 2-4, min6 (very important in this music) 2-5, diminished 3-5, dom 7th 3-5 + 7. There's much more in there as well. Besides, it is an easier tuning to get around on since the A triad on top and the B triad in the middle (minus string 6) are the same inversion, just a whole step apart. Let me think about it for a bit, then I'll email you with some changes.
You could even consider changing the notes of the bottom 3 strings (perhaps a C above B instead of the A) for more of the altered sound and also to have more diminished and half-dimished sounds.
Take a look at the tuning experiment on my B-10--this tuning is the basis for that.

[This message was edited by Mike Neer on 24 January 2004 at 07:39 AM.]

I use it all the time ... like this:

C6 vs C6/A7... E7 to A (in Tab form)

7           7             9
 8            8           9
7     vs    7       to    9  
7           7             9
7           7             9
 8          7

A sweep across strings 6,5,4,3 with my thumpick ... then some dancin' around strings 4,3,2,1 ... ending with the A.

Using the "number system" (key of A) ...

E7         A

2          3
 7         1
5     to   6  
4          5
2          3
7 

Without the C# (string 6) ... I won't have my "favorite ways" to do Hawaiian style turnarounds.

[This message was edited by Rick Aiello on 24 January 2004 at 08:32 AM.]