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Author Topic:   Sol Hoopii tuning question
Carter York
Member

From: Austin, TX [Windsor Park]

posted 23 January 2004 06:30 AM     profile     edit
Hey y'all,

I was reading some of Andy Volk's Lap Steel book, specifically the Sol Hoopii section, and saw his C#minor tuning spelled:

E
C#
G#
E
D
B

what caught my eye was the D in there, and I thought, why would you want that a half step from yer tonic in there? (That's where I like the vodka) Then I realized it's the same interval as in JB's tuning:

E
C
A
G
E
C#

Now I realize this allows you to "major up" your relative minor (sorry for the technical terms) so that you can form a C, Am, or A.

Granted my playing isn't as far along as my understanding of theory, but I don't really understand why you would want (more specifically how you would use) that major chord available there. What am I missing, or what can I listen to, to hear that being utilized. Thanks for any input.....

Carter

[This message was edited by Carter York on 23 January 2004 at 06:32 AM.]

Mike Neer
Member

From: NJ

posted 23 January 2004 07:15 AM     profile   send email     edit
In the Sol tuning it gives the opportunity to use extended dominant chords, notably the 13th. The D is the b7th degree of the Emaj scale and the C# is the 6th or 13th. Also, you get the minor third interval on the 5th and 6th strings. Dominant chords are a big part of the Jazz and Hawaiian idioms.
As for the JB tuning, you don't so much get VI Major, but rather the VI dom. At least that's the way I see it.

[This message was edited by Mike Neer on 23 January 2004 at 07:16 AM.]

Carter York
Member

From: Austin, TX [Windsor Park]

posted 23 January 2004 07:21 AM     profile     edit
Thanks for the reply Mike...

That sort of stuff (extended chords) is starting to click the more I learn to spell all the chords, maj and minor, and start to move into that area....thanks again...

Carter

Rick Aiello
Member

From: Berryville, VA USA

posted 23 January 2004 07:21 AM     profile   send email     edit
If you think of the C#m tuning as an E Based tuning (E as the tonic) you get ... (lo to hi)

B D E G# C# E

5 7b 1 3 6 1

I think of JB's C6/A7 as more of a "combo tuning" (Am7/A7) ...


C# E G A C E

3 5 7b 1 3b 5

Having that I7 chord on strings 6,5,4,3 is VERY handy.

Thats how I look at 'em anyway ... hope that helps ...

------------------

www.horseshoemagnets.com

Jesse Pearson
Member

From: San Diego , CA

posted 23 January 2004 07:44 AM     profile   send email     edit
Carter, the C#m7 that you are describing is not the C#m7 that Sol used. The tuning he used is:

E
C#
G#
E
B
E

You can see it's just Open E with the B string sharped to C#. Alot of guys don't look at it as C#m7, but E6 tuning. They are relative to each other. The C# in Jerry's tuning is so at the Open/12th fret, you can play A7 on the bottom strings. You loose the full strum chord of the basic C6 tuning. Jerry used a 7 string so that he had both tunings together. If you look at the D note in the tuning you are describing relative to E6, the D is the flatted 7th. So now you have the flatted 7th and the 13th of E6/C#mb9? I would like to know where the tuning your talking about came from and when if ever, Sol used this tuning? I like to record copy Dick McIntire on the regular C#m7(Sol) because I hear it alot, maybe more than F#9. I have seen others say that the tuning from Andy's book was Sol's tuning, as found on some tuning charts. I have noticed that these tuning charts don't have sol's real C#m7 tuning. After searching for an answer, I am convinced that the older steel players who lived back then, say that the (Open E, #C) tuning is the one he used the most and is found on some of his most famous recordings. If I am wrong, please correct me. This tuning has an older, less evolved sound compared to C6 and I find it easier to get that old timey Hawaiian sound out of it because it can't do as much. But C6 is still my main tuning.

[This message was edited by Jesse Pearson on 23 January 2004 at 09:22 PM.]

Carter York
Member

From: Austin, TX [Windsor Park]

posted 23 January 2004 07:45 AM     profile     edit
Rick,

Thanks, that does help...I hadn't really thought of those tunings in terms of E and A, but rather C# and C, so that opens things up quite a bit...

Now, back to my spelling charts.....thanks again...

Carter

Rick Aiello
Member

From: Berryville, VA USA

posted 23 January 2004 07:49 AM     profile   send email     edit
Here's a nice thread on The Advantages of C6/A7
...

Erv Niehaus
Member

From: Litchfield, MN, USA

posted 23 January 2004 07:50 AM     profile   send email     edit
One of my favorite 8 string tunings is the C# minor 7th. The way I tune it, from high to low is: E C# B G# E B G# E. In fact, I just restrung a T8 Fender Stringmaster last night with that setup. I started playing steel in the old A major tuning so use the E & C# string combination quite a bit.
Erv
Carter York
Member

From: Austin, TX [Windsor Park]

posted 23 January 2004 07:56 AM     profile     edit
Jesse,

Thanks for your reply, too, good info there.......I took that tuning from p. 13 of Andy's Lap Steel Guitar book. I don't know this stuff well enough to know when/if he used this on any particular recording. I just know every time I had to go look and see who was playing a crazy tune from "Waikiki is Good Enough for Me", it was Sol!!

And while we're talking about tunings, I have seen tunings referred to as "close-voiced" on several occasions, including the above mentioned C#minor. What does that mean?

Carter

Mike Neer
Member

From: NJ

posted 23 January 2004 07:57 AM     profile   send email     edit
I believe Sol used the C#min tuning (E-C#-G#-E-D-B)on his electric recordings. He used the A and C#min (E bass) tunings on his earlier acoustic recordings.
Carter York
Member

From: Austin, TX [Windsor Park]

posted 23 January 2004 08:01 AM     profile     edit
Thank you Rick, thank you Erv, looks like it's gonna be another late night, and it's only 10 in the morning......

CY

Jesse Pearson
Member

From: San Diego , CA

posted 23 January 2004 08:03 AM     profile   send email     edit
I don't like the C6/A6 on 6 string, that dom7 doesn't sound that good to me compared to the major triad on the bottom. You can slant the bar and get other dom chord voicings, which are kinda advanced 3/7 voicings with the regular C6 tuning. If I used 8 strings, I'd put Bb on the botton like Jr Brown.
Jesse Pearson
Member

From: San Diego , CA

posted 23 January 2004 08:18 AM     profile   send email     edit
Carter, I think a closed voicing has all the notes in the same octave.

Thanks Mike, can anyone else chimn in on the acoustic/electric tunings that Sol used. Thanks...I wonder why Dick McIntire never used the electric Sol tuning?

[This message was edited by Jesse Pearson on 23 January 2004 at 08:25 AM.]

Carter York
Member

From: Austin, TX [Windsor Park]

posted 23 January 2004 08:53 AM     profile     edit
well, score another IQ point with the help of the Forum, thanks Jesse....

CY

Jeff Au Hoy
Member

From: Honolulu, Hawai'i

posted 23 January 2004 08:59 AM     profile   send email     edit
Must be a finite supply of points. I get dumber every day.
Carter York
Member

From: Austin, TX [Windsor Park]

posted 23 January 2004 09:04 AM     profile     edit
I think I made room for another point when I abandoned the silver spray paint idea for my Stringmaster....I'll bet if you bag that seafoam green idea, you could score one too!...and btw, anymore 4tracks in the works?? I'm still enjoyin' those.

CY

Jesse Pearson
Member

From: San Diego , CA

posted 23 January 2004 09:12 AM     profile   send email     edit
The other observation I wanted to point out about basic C6 verses C6/A7 on a 6 string, is the classic upper 4 strings of the C#m7 tuning. On C#m7, there are 2 voicings used alot, strings 1,2,3 and 2,3,4. You can play these same voicings on basic C6 on strings 2,3,5 and 3,5,6. I like the sound of these voicings and find they work alot of the times. I used them on "Steel Guitar Rag" that I posted in the Tab section.
Rick Aiello
Member

From: Berryville, VA USA

posted 23 January 2004 09:45 AM     profile   send email     edit
For me ... having a "minor third" interval between strings 6 & 5 makes harmonizing much easier.

Forward Slants


C# E


3 5
4
6
5
7
6 1


7 2
1
3
2 4


3 5

vs....

Reverse Slants


C E


5
3
4 6

5 7
1
6
2
7
1 3
4
2
5
3

I'm not very comfortable with reverse slants on "interior strings" ... must be a mental block or something

The other advantages listed in that post are also important to me ... but this is my main reason for goin' C6/A7 on a 6 stringer.

[This message was edited by Rick Aiello on 23 January 2004 at 10:16 AM.]

Andy Volk
Member

From: Boston, MA

posted 23 January 2004 10:24 AM     profile   send email     edit
As an author, one wants to be putting the correct information out there in the world. My first reaction was: "Dash it all! I MUST have documentation somewhere that corroborates what I wrote." I didn't have time today for an exhaustive search but I found two sources that instead corroborate what YOU'RE saying, Jesse - that Sol's C#m tuning was EC#G#EBE. And C#m is listed in yet another variation in Stacy Phillips' book. So it's a somewhat murkey issue. The change of just one string, however, makes a lot of sense to me given Sol's use of E major. I wouldn't put it past him to have used other variations at some point in his career. Many steelers will often tweak a string or two for a given tune. But in any case, I'll keep looking for the source of the tuning I listed but I expect that I'll have egg on my face and be making a correction for the next edition.
Jesse Pearson
Member

From: San Diego , CA

posted 23 January 2004 10:37 AM     profile   send email     edit
Rick, I see what you mean. But your point of reference is the intervals of the A7 chord at the open/12th fret (C6/A7)and your outling the A major scale with 3rds, instead of the A mixolydian with 3rds? The intervals for C# to E is a minor 3rd, why not use the 5th and 4th strings of basic C6 or strings 3 and 2 for those same slants, does it make a big difference in timbre? I would like to try it on a 7 string one day and see what Jerry was seeing.

I was thinking that Sol and Dick went electric at the same time from the basic C#m7 acoustic tuning and maybe they each altered it differently so their new tunings would sound different from each other? They both just changed the last 2 strings for their new electric tunings? Sol EB to BD and Dick EB to F#A#. See, this is what happens when things are kept secret, history is lost.

Sorry Andy, didn't see your post in time. It seems alot of famous guys used the basic C#m7 acoustic tuning back in the day. I know we can use any tuning to play a song alot of times, but I find it satisfying to know a famous musicians tuning and kinda step into his shoes for a second when trying to record copy their songs. I find hearing tunings/chords to be the hardest thing when your starting out on steel.

[This message was edited by Jesse Pearson on 23 January 2004 at 10:50 AM.]

Carter York
Member

From: Austin, TX [Windsor Park]

posted 23 January 2004 11:53 AM     profile     edit
I knew there was gold in this thread, so I re read the whole thing about a dozen times, and something moved me to go and tighten up the C to a C#:

E
C
A
G
E
C#


Holy Toledo!! I started messing around with strings 6,5,4,3 and all of the sudden, I had the dominant sound I had been yearning for for too long...Having 'transferred over' from Spanish Guitar, I spent a lot of time orienting everything off of the C bass note...learning the major and minor triads and the different root notes up the neck. I guess I got pretty stuck there, b/c (again) all of the sudden, I realized that knowing the intervals between the strings meant with any/all of them as the tonic. So with the A string (which I know the notes of pretty well from Sp. gtr) as the root, it changed EVERYTHING. THEN I realized that everything I knew from strings 1-5 is still right where I left it...THEN I realized how that dominant sound (root on string 3/A) had been on strings 5,4,3 this entire time! THEN suddenly I am making all of these connections up and down the neck and the entire concept of 'pockets' totally makes sense. I had to stop and breathe for a few minutes. Then I drew out a few charts with different strings as the tonic, studied em for a few minutes and started playing again, and actually said "Is this ME playing!?"

Can't thank y'all enough for all the info you continue to post and explain!


gotta go......might be gone for a while....

..and might not play any sixths for awhile either.......

CY

Rick Aiello
Member

From: Berryville, VA USA

posted 23 January 2004 01:17 PM     profile   send email     edit
quote:
The intervals for C# to E is a minor 3rd, why not use the 5th and 4th strings of basic C6 or strings 3 and 2 for those same slants, does it make a big difference in timbre?

I do use the 5 & 4 strings (E,G) as well as strings 3 & 2 (A,C). That's kinda my point ...

For the continuous, non-interupted flow of a harmonized melody ... for me ... it is easier to stay on two strings and employ forward slants, instead of reverse slants on the bass strings.

For some "nut-sy" reason, just the opposite is true ... for me ... on harmonizing string 1 ...

I prefer reverse slants (strings 1&2 and strings 1&4), big-time ...

Basically, string 5 ... being an octave lower than my major melody string ... becomes my "focal point" for bassy melody alternatives.

I usually employ 1 harmony note with my melody note 95% of the time ... so I want that 6th string to be available and I just "suck" at gettin' reverse slants in that neck of the woods ??

To me, "minor intervals" (m3 & m6) scream forward slant and "major intervals" (M3 & M6) scream reverse slant when moving up and down the neck ... regardless of fret/chord/homebase where the run starts.

So I see the C6/A7 as ...

m3 ... m3 ... M2 ... m3 ... M3

and the C6 as ...

M3 ... m3 ... M2 ... m3 ... M3

Just 'splainin' my own "fretboard" visualization ...


------------------

www.horseshoemagnets.com

[This message was edited by Rick Aiello on 23 January 2004 at 01:27 PM.]

Mike Neer
Member

From: NJ

posted 23 January 2004 01:34 PM     profile   send email     edit
...not to mention the diminished triad that magically appears on strings 6-5-4.

I mostly just play in the C#min, E7 (E-B-G#-E-D-B, old timey) and high bass A tunings, but I think C6/A7 is a good swing tuning.
Another tuning I've had fun with and have enjoyed an interesting dominant sound with is a 6 string B11.

Jesse Pearson
Member

From: San Diego , CA

posted 23 January 2004 03:26 PM     profile   send email     edit
How often do you guys into C6/A7 use the Dom7 or Dim chords found on the bottom? Being a guitar player first has me always looking for that root on the bottom I guess. Rick, thats a great way to look at the neck.
Mike Neer
Member

From: NJ

posted 23 January 2004 03:55 PM     profile   send email     edit
I think being a steel player affords you the opportunity to look at chords inside out and rely less on root inversions but rather create voice leading reminiscent of what jazz guitarists and pianists do. You can focus on creating contrapuntal lines to the main melody, or simulate horn sections. It's all wide open, but you have to try to approach the instrument differently than you would the guitar. It takes a good while to get it all to sink in, but I think it's important to play along with others, especially those who are going to lay the foundations down (bass, guitar).
Jesse Pearson
Member

From: San Diego , CA

posted 23 January 2004 04:46 PM     profile   send email     edit
I think that C6 at the open/12th fret = C dom box and that C# throws that concept way out of wack. The A7/C# dim chord on the bottom of C6/A7, doesn't sound as good as the dom and dim chords found else where on the basic C6 neck IMHO, to make it worth all the avoidence of the C# and loss of that lined up strum. You also have straight bar intervals with the C on the bottom. This is the one thing I'm still not o.k. with, how the heck do you play "Sleep Walk" for instance, with C# on the bottom on a 6 string? I guess the answer is to turn a knob here and there for different arrangments, but I'd rather have an 8 string for a straight bar dom sound with the b7 below the basic C6 tuning.
Mike Neer
Member

From: NJ

posted 23 January 2004 05:00 PM     profile   send email     edit
Well, if you're using strum chords I guess it doesn't work as well, but I guarantee as time goes on you'll want to explore it more, especially if you're playing blues progressions with alot of turnarounds.
basilh
Member

From: United Kingdom

posted 23 January 2004 07:19 PM     profile   send email     edit
Hi Guys.... I see a LOT of techincal stuff about the C# min tuning....AND THEN the listed tuning is E13 ?

Low D below the root plus a higher C# above the root = 13th !!!

Also, the tunings Sol used on his electric recordings of 12th St. Rag etc. have not been definatively stated....and can't be, except by someone who was there "On the Day" so to speak.
There are sections of 12th St. Rag that some of us consider were played on a 7 string.

Some parts of his electric recordings would lead one to believe that his top three strings were E C# B. (as the E note in the main first lick of 12th St, Rag is NOT an open string... he must have played the run at the 4th and third frets on the 2nd and 3rd strings.) although whatever he did live could have been different.
The 7 string guitar theory comes from the fact the fact that although he played the "Low" section live, on the record it was in OCTAVES. Then figure this, if string 6 was a low "E" that makes strings 2 and 3 a C# and a G#. This is NOT the case.
You could even take the speculation one or two stages further and MAYBE suggest that the recordings COULD have been made using TWO guitars....Remember that in those days, Top Pro Players jealously guarded their tunings and "Tricks" and would also have at their disposal the very latest in developments. ( When did Rick introduce a 7 string, and what year did Sol record his famous electric sessions ? )
Bruce Clarke's restoration work on the "Radio Sol" CD is a revelation...I have heard players emulating Sol's version of 12th St. Rag on a 6 string, but, using an "Open" first string in the run...Sol also MAY have done this "Live" but most certainly NOT on the record.
Baz
BTW please excuse the spelling mistakes... my eyes are not so good these days..BUT.... my ears still are.
www.waikiki-islanders.com

------------------

quote:
Steel players do it without fretting


http://www.waikiki-islanders.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk


[This message was edited by basilh on 23 January 2004 at 07:22 PM.]

Jesse Pearson
Member

From: San Diego , CA

posted 23 January 2004 08:01 PM     profile   send email     edit
Cool Basilh, there are so many mysteries to uncover.

Mike, I do play alot of different types of blues and that Dom7 on the lower bottom strings doesn't sound very good to me? I can phrase basic C6 like a blues organ if I want, the voicing on that C6/A7 dom sounds bland to my ears. No, I'm stuck with basic C6 myself, split string slants gives me the dom sounds I need. When I first learned to play Jimmie Vaughn style steel on basic C6 the way he does on an 8 string, that answered alot of questions for me. To be honest, that C6/A7 voicing sounds kinda corn ball to me and I think it was intended to sound that way. I've tried to like it more than a couple of different times, but I don't find it of that much use sound wise for my ears, ta put up with the additional hassels. If it works for you, then thats what counts.

Mike Neer
Member

From: NJ

posted 23 January 2004 08:09 PM     profile   send email     edit
I actually don't play in that tuning at all. I spend about 90% of the time playing C#min on my National--other than that, on my electrics, it's usually the E13 mentioned above, E7, A or B11. F#9 is nice too, but I've got my hands full already. I think the C6 stuff is great for western swing, but I don't play it, and I'm not playing any blues, either.
Rick Aiello
Member

From: Berryville, VA USA

posted 23 January 2004 08:30 PM     profile   send email     edit
quote:
To be honest, that C6/A7 voicing sounds kinda corn ball to me and I think it was intended to sound that way.

I hear Ray M. comin' ...

HowardR
Member

From: N.Y.C.,N.Y.

posted 23 January 2004 09:17 PM     profile   send email     edit
quote:
I wonder why Dick McIntire never used the electric Sol tuning?

Mainly because he didn't have a dishwasher...

Andy Volk
Member

From: Boston, MA

posted 24 January 2004 04:12 AM     profile   send email     edit
Jesse, I'm with you. I've tried over and over again to like the C6/A7 tuning - and moving that 6th string to C# did save my butt in a jam session once - but I always return to ECAGEC. I've looked at a lot of tunings and the straight C6th seems to work for jazz, swing,blues, bossa nova, hawaiian, country, pop, surf and melodic rock. Like you, I prefer the high-string dominant chords found in slant positions. I also dig chords that combine open strings with the bar and C6th affords a couple of my favorites such as these:

         
Dmai13/C Fmai7

E----------2----------------0----------
C----------2---------------------------
A----------0---------------------------
G----------0----------------5---------
E----------0----------------5---------
C----------0----------------5--------

The C6th doesn't work as well for Folk, Celtic and modal music where you need a more open sound without a 6th note so I prefer open D or E for that music or DADGAD where the lack of 3rd is a big advantage.

And Bas, the musical archeology of all this is fascinating, isn't it? Sometimes we just have to admit we'll never know for sure. I'd be surprised to learn that Sol had a 7-string but it's not impossible.

HowardR
Member

From: N.Y.C.,N.Y.

posted 24 January 2004 07:19 AM     profile   send email     edit
This is a good time for me to ask you knowledgeable folks about a tuning, since I'm theory challenged.

I'm interested in learning some of the Gypsy Jazz tunes and Gypsy styled jazz standards. There are a lot of dom 7ths, minor,dim, 6ths, 9ths, and I'm sure many altered chords.

I began with the 8 string C6/A7 and have evolved to this on 8string resophonic with a pedal lower on the second string:

E
C#.... -C (P)
A
G
E
D
C
A

The D was orininally C#, but since I have a C# on the second string, I opted for the D.

What do you think?

Jesse Pearson
Member

From: San Diego , CA

posted 24 January 2004 07:20 AM     profile   send email     edit
Andy, those are nice sounding chords. I tabbed out that E Dom7 voicing on the bottom strings of C6/A7 for Basic C6.


E|-----|-----|
C|-----|-----|
A|---7-|---7-|
G|---7-|---7-|
E|-----|---7-|
C|---8-|-----|

Man, that 4 frets up from the Dom box position has alot of different things going on.

Jesse Pearson
Member

From: San Diego , CA

posted 24 January 2004 07:29 AM     profile   send email     edit
Sorry Howard, you posted while I was typing. Looks like a nice A Dom7 on top and the D is the add 9 of C major(Jimi Hendrix fav chord) or it can suspend the Dom7 on top. And you still have Basic C6 in there. Nice, how does it sound?

[This message was edited by Jesse Pearson on 24 January 2004 at 07:33 AM.]

HowardR
Member

From: N.Y.C.,N.Y.

posted 24 January 2004 07:29 AM     profile   send email     edit
quote:
Like you, I prefer the high-string dominant chords found in slant positions.

Why not choke the second string a half step and get a good dom 7 strum?

Mike Neer
Member

From: NJ

posted 24 January 2004 07:35 AM     profile   send email     edit
HowardR, I think a real good tuning for that would be:

H--->L
E C# A F# D# C# B A

First off, you've got your min7 on strings 1-4, minor on strings 2-4, min6 (very important in this music) 2-5, diminished 3-5, dom 7th 3-5 + 7. There's much more in there as well. Besides, it is an easier tuning to get around on since the A triad on top and the B triad in the middle (minus string 6) are the same inversion, just a whole step apart. Let me think about it for a bit, then I'll email you with some changes.
You could even consider changing the notes of the bottom 3 strings (perhaps a C above B instead of the A) for more of the altered sound and also to have more diminished and half-dimished sounds.
Take a look at the tuning experiment on my B-10--this tuning is the basis for that.

[This message was edited by Mike Neer on 24 January 2004 at 07:39 AM.]

Jesse Pearson
Member

From: San Diego , CA

posted 24 January 2004 07:43 AM     profile   send email     edit
Howard, I tried chocking the string and it works, but I use heavy strings and it's to hard to do on the fly for me. That Cadd9 chord that Jimi Hendrix used is found on the intro to "Castle's made of sand" and also "Little Wing".
Rick Aiello
Member

From: Berryville, VA USA

posted 24 January 2004 08:10 AM     profile   send email     edit
Jesse, you asked how often C6/A7 advocates use that low dom 7th ...

I use it all the time ... like this:

C6 vs C6/A7... E7 to A (in Tab form)



7 7 9
8 8 9
7 vs 7 to 9
7 7 9
7 7 9
8 7

A sweep across strings 6,5,4,3 with my thumpick ... then some dancin' around strings 4,3,2,1 ... ending with the A.

Using the "number system" (key of A) ...


E7 A


2 3
7 1
5 to 6
4 5
2 3
7

Without the C# (string 6) ... I won't have my "favorite ways" to do Hawaiian style turnarounds.

[This message was edited by Rick Aiello on 24 January 2004 at 08:32 AM.]


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