|
Author
|
Topic: Baritone Weissenborns
|
Dan Tyack
Member From: Seattle, WA USA
|
posted 26 June 2004 01:36 AM
profile send email edit
I played the best Weissenborn I have ever heard in Florida last month when I played at the Sacred Steel Convention in Florida. It was a Mermer, made down in Florida. A 'baritone' model, by far the best sounding Weissenborn type I have ever heard. I do like tuning way down (this was tuned down to C). Are there any other baritone Weissenborns I should know about? |
Steinar Gregertsen
Member From: Arendal, Norway
|
posted 26 June 2004 02:13 AM
profile edit
I know Rance White of Lazy River Guitars, who built my latest Weissenborn, is to build a 30" scale baritone for forumite Ron Bednar. I'm sure he'll join to tell us more.Steinar ------------------
www.gregertsen.com
|
Ron Bednar
Member From: Rancho Cordova, California, USA
|
posted 26 June 2004 09:53 AM
profile send email edit
Yep, somebody mentions baritones and here I am...
Rance is in fact building me a 30" scale for B and A tuning. After doing much reading and talking with baritone builders the 30" was settled on. Anything less than a 28" scale and it's not a baritone, no matter what the tuning. Mermer guitars are really beautiful and I am happy to hear they sound as good as they look. I could not afford one at this time. But Rance at Lazy River Guitars can put you in the driver's seat of a baritone for a very reasonable amount. Drop Rance an email and tell him Steinar and Ron sent you.
http://www.lazyriverguitars.com/ Along with Keith Hunter, we are forming The Lazy River Weiss Club. I am designing Tee's and baseball hats. Join the club! |
John Bushouse
Member From:
|
posted 26 June 2004 11:40 AM
profile send email edit
Question: What tunings do you play in? Do you use slants very often, and if so, how much more difficult will they be with such a long scale? |
Ron Bednar
Member From: Rancho Cordova, California, USA
|
posted 26 June 2004 12:19 PM
profile send email edit
John, I use open D and plan on going down to B and A using the same form as open D. I don't play slants that much, mainly because I have a problem with my left hand and cannot use a regular bar so slants involve pivoting my whole wrist. I use a couple GS steels and have experimented with adapting one of the wood handles to a longer bar. Another thing I have been learning from Pete Grant is how to make major amd minor 3rds in D without slanting. It will be fun to explore and I plan on trying other tunings as well. Might be interesting to see what C6 would sound like down there. |
John Bushouse
Member From:
|
posted 26 June 2004 12:44 PM
profile send email edit
I'm mainly an open G player (fDGDgbd) and use a lot of 1st string - 3rd string slants spanning a couple of frets. My guitar has a 23" scale, so it's not too hard to cover the split. Maybe I'd just have to get a longer bar...I hope when you finally get your bari you'll post some samples. Sounds like a cool instrument! |
Travis Bernhardt
Member From: Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
|
posted 27 June 2004 02:17 AM
profile send email edit
I have wanted a baritone Weissenborn copy ever since hearing David Lindley's seven string Canopus (low to high: GDGDGBD; he's also got one that's a six string that leaves off the high D for an "Open C" shape tuned down to G--and I think he even sometimes tunes that down to an F). The only one I know of aside from the Canopus is the Bear Creek "Bear-Tone." Bear Creek makes one for a ridiculous amount of money--Sixty-five hundred dollars US (almost $9000 Canadian). What an enormously overpriced instrument. What unbelievable gall to charge that much. I think the Canopus would probably be closer to $3500. Better... Thing is, I'll bet any builder would be willing to build you one. Locally (for me--but also sort of for you, Dan, since you're just down the road in Seattle), Michael Dunn and Neil Russell make Weissenborn copies, and they've each said they'd be happy to build a baritone model if someone wanted one. That reminds me, does anyone know if there are any special design consderations with a baritone guitar? Or do you just get bigger pieces of wood for the top and a longer piece of wood for the neck and that's it? -Travis |
John Bushouse
Member From:
|
posted 27 June 2004 08:09 AM
profile send email edit
Actually, the Beartone's down to $4500 (I know, still a lot of $$$). |
Ron Bednar
Member From: Rancho Cordova, California, USA
|
posted 27 June 2004 08:35 AM
profile send email edit
I am not a builder, but the builders I spoke with all agreed that the scale length for a baritone is increased by 15% over the 25.5 of the regular Weiss, and the body dimensions need to follow suite. For open A that I plan on tuning to the string gauges will be 18, 26, 32, 45, 56, 80, they need more volume to resonate. Travis - Where did you get the price for the Bear-Tone? Their site lists it at a base of $4500, still too much for me anyway. Interesting in that it's scale length is only 27". A couple baritone builders I spoke with were both adamant that a scale length of less than 28' was not a baritone guitar. There is an 8 string Weiss available from Buckdancer's Choice http://www.buckdancers.com/acousticlapsteelguitar.html
But they won't be in production again until November. But it's price is only $1195 I believe. Again, give Rance at Lazy River Guitars a yell, his baritone price is below the Canopus. |
Ron Bednar
Member From: Rancho Cordova, California, USA
|
posted 27 June 2004 09:00 AM
profile send email edit
John - I just thought of something that didn't occur to me when I answered your earlier question about slants. With that long scale length theres likely to be a "sitar bar buzz" with longer slants, especially with the thicker strings on a baritone. You get that a lot on reverse 3rds in D between the 1st and 2nd frets anyway. I can only imagine it would be worse with a longer scale length and heavier strings. Another good reason to look to none slant positions and other tunings. [This message was edited by Ron Bednar on 27 June 2004 at 09:01 AM.] |
Travis Bernhardt
Member From: Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
|
posted 27 June 2004 12:06 PM
profile send email edit
My mistake on the Beartone. The last I had checked (probably last year some time) it was still $6500. I guess now it's just way overpriced, not enormously so.  As for the dimensions, if I understand correctly you're telling me that it is just a matter of making everything bigger in proportion to the new scale length? There are no other special considerations? That's interesting... -Travis |
Russ Young
Member From: Seattle, Washington, USA
|
posted 27 June 2004 12:29 PM
profile send email edit
The Bear Creek website still says the BearTone is $6500 -- and it sounds as if they have something even more expensive coming soon ... |
John Bushouse
Member From:
|
posted 27 June 2004 12:50 PM
profile send email edit
Or, $4500:
http://www.bcguitar.com/newprice.html |
Steinar Gregertsen
Member From: Arendal, Norway
|
posted 27 June 2004 01:37 PM
profile edit
Alright then, $5.250 it is!  Steinar ------------------
www.gregertsen.com
|
Russ Young
Member From: Seattle, Washington, USA
|
posted 27 June 2004 01:50 PM
profile send email edit
John -- Maybe the difference is tax, license and destination charges ... |
Ron Bednar
Member From: Rancho Cordova, California, USA
|
posted 27 June 2004 02:59 PM
profile send email edit
Travis - No not just making everything bigger, bracing and neck reinforcement has got to be done to take into consideration the enormous pressure that the heavier gauges will bring. But like I said, I'm not a builder, I just gleaned some tidbits from my email and conversations with 3 baritone builders. I am sure there are other factors that they figure in. [This message was edited by Ron Bednar on 27 June 2004 at 03:00 PM.] |
Dan Tyack
Member From: Seattle, WA USA
|
posted 28 June 2004 12:38 AM
profile send email edit
Thanks for the contributions, everybody! I did sit down with Lindley's bari Weissenborns and was impressed, but the Mermer guitar simply knocked me out. What was impressive was that the low end, while impressive, was completely balenced with the high end. He attributed it to his bracing, which is different from standard guitar bracing. I don't know from adam about guitar building, but I do know a great sounding guitar. For me the negative about the Mermer was the amazing woodwork. Not that I don't think it's beautiful, but I've never owned such a georgeous instrument, and I know how I abuse them....... PS, Russ and Steinar, can you send me an email with your address. I need to send you reciepts for your generous donations to the Sacred Steel Instrument fund. (My computer just died) |
Dwight Mark
Member From: Denver, Colorado, USA
|
posted 28 June 2004 09:16 PM
profile send email edit
This forum is dangerous... I guess I'd call it "WAS not WAS" like the band. Weissenborn Acquisition Syndrome. I've been on a break for a while... I honestely cannot imagine a 30" scale Weissenborn. Brozman's recordings sound great with the 27" scale and when he holds it, it looks like he could get inside and paddle away back to Australia from Hawaii in it - it is huge...
I also tune down to low C, but have been using the real Weissenborn for that still... Do any of you have recordings of the Weissenborns tuned down below C? Dwight |
Ron Bednar
Member From: Rancho Cordova, California, USA
|
posted 28 June 2004 10:13 PM
profile send email edit
Dwight, I just heard from the builder today. He finished the form for the 30" baritone and did a test bend with some wood he had. Said it is going to be like building a cello. I need to decide on the wood and then it's a go.
No, I have not heard a Weiss tuned below C. I am wondering, really, if it will be able to play chords down that low without the notes turning to mush? I don't know...there's only one way to find out.
It's going to be really fun I think. |
Dan Tyack
Member From: Seattle, WA USA
|
posted 28 June 2004 11:55 PM
profile send email edit
One of Linday's was tuned down to G, with the low G being an octave below a dobro tuning. He used what he called a Leo Kotke tuning, which was tuned (from high to low):3
1
5
1
5
1 He was totally masterfull. |
Dwight Mark
Member From: Denver, Colorado, USA
|
posted 29 June 2004 05:27 AM
profile send email edit
I am about to release my CD, which will have 3 songs tuned in an open D shape down to C. I was just curious if anyone else out there is doing this and has problems. I only have problems with the intonation of the low string as I go up the neck. It goes sharp.
I also do simple slants - I don't know if their in pitch - I'm not the cleanest player, but I do slant just to hit some minor chords.
My style 1 is built fairly light compared to the style 2 and another style 1 that I sold, and I think the lighter ones are more responsive and can still sing with the low tuning.
I'd also like a little rocket type weissenborn that could get me up to "G" in the open D shape...
I wonder if you'll be able to keep the instrument stable on your lap, or if you'll need to play it on a coffee table or something - ha! Imagine the calton case for that baby, too. I can't wait to see how it turns out.
Keep us posted on the wood choices...
|
Bob Stone
Member From: Gainesville, FL, USA
|
posted 29 June 2004 05:52 AM
profile send email edit
Here's Richard Mermer's Website. He's a good guy and a fine craftsman.
http://www.mermerguitars.com/ |
Steinar Gregertsen
Member From: Arendal, Norway
|
posted 29 June 2004 06:14 AM
profile edit
Hmmmmmmm........
Seems like I need to order myself a 4-string bass Weissenborn..... I already have a mandolin set up with four strings and tuned to a high A, for piccolo slide...Steinar ------------------
www.gregertsen.com
|
Dwight Mark
Member From: Denver, Colorado, USA
|
posted 29 June 2004 12:27 PM
profile send email edit
Now Steinar, is it a custom built mandolin setup for slide? I'm still waiting for the day when I see Steinar with a real, vintage Weissenborn in his lap, and now an old National resophonic mandolin strapped on. |
Travis Bernhardt
Member From: Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
|
posted 29 June 2004 02:17 PM
profile send email edit
I think 'Twango Bango II' has a track ('King of the Bed') with a Weissenborn tuned down to Bb from C. There are probably other examples of this strewn throughout his CDs. As for tuning a D shape down to C, I'll bet with the right guages it could be done, but I've tried it before with the normal guages and the F# string (in D) gets pretty slack when tuned down to an E. Tuning it to C# works fine. Also, Charlie Hase, a Vancouver steel player, has a mandolin with a raised nut that he tunes to an open G (he keeps the string pairs). He has recorded it on his album 'Slide Groove' and it sounds really cool. I can probably find his e-mail address for you if you want to order a copy from him. The album as a whole has some very cool stuff on it, and aside from the drums it's all played lap style. He has a four-string bass with a raised nut that he uses for the bass parts, he uses a few different guitars (reso and flat-top) for rhythm and lead, and much of it is played on his pedal steel (double-neck Zum with an E9 neck and a special eight string C tuning on the bottom neck which he designed himself--a cross between the open G and open D shapes but in C--where he can get minor chords, sixths, sevenths etc. with the pedals). A very unconventional steel album. -Travis[This message was edited by Travis Bernhardt on 30 June 2004 at 01:28 AM.] |
Ron Bednar
Member From: Rancho Cordova, California, USA
|
posted 29 June 2004 03:29 PM
profile send email edit
Travis, I'd like to get that CD, it sounds real interesting! |
Travis Bernhardt
Member From: Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
|
posted 29 June 2004 04:32 PM
profile send email edit
Charlie's e-mail address may have changed--I haven't used it in a while--but the one I've got on file is:charliehase@telus.net If you're interested, shoot him an e-mail. He's a friendly person who'd probably be happy to answer your questions or sell you a CD. It just dawned on me that he's registered to this forum... A search might turn up his e-mail if this address doesn't work. -Travis P.S. I e-mailed the Lazy Rivers guitar guy (Rance) and he gave good answers to my questions. His prices are excellent. Definitely another good option in the affordable Weissenborn "scene," and worth investigating further. |
Steinar Gregertsen
Member From: Arendal, Norway
|
posted 29 June 2004 04:46 PM
profile edit
Dwight,- mine is a 100 years old Norwegian made mandolin with a neck that is so bowed that bottleneck slide is all it is good for!
Original Weissenborn? Me? Pfffffffft.....
Which leads me to - Travis,- Rance White is definitely an 'up and coming' builder who is worth checking into. My experience with him has been nothing but the best and his guitars have an identity all its own. Different from both my Celtic Cross and the Superior I used to have.
As a pair, the Lazy River and the Celtic Cross match perfectly, one is 'sophisticated' with a nice high-end sparkle, while the other is rougher, louder and darker sounding. I hope I never have to chose between the two. Steinar
------------------
www.gregertsen.com
[This message was edited by Steinar Gregertsen on 29 June 2004 at 04:47 PM.]
|
Dan Tyack
Member From: Seattle, WA USA
|
posted 30 June 2004 09:30 AM
profile send email edit
Rich Mermer told me he would be willing to build me an ugly one, so I might just go ahead and do it....Or I could justify to myself that I deserve to have a beautiful guitar (even though I misstreat them). I'm far from a guitar building expert, but I do know when I fall in love with the sound of an instrument. It hasn't happened that often: My first PP Emmmons
My Franklin Steels
My PedaBros
My 'Englander' lap (Supro)
My Asher lap
My Howlett Weissenborn I played these and I knew I had to own it. The Mermer is one of those instruments... ------------------
www.tyack.com
|
The Steel Guitar Forum
