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Author
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Topic: C# minor 9th
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Rick Collins
Member From: Claremont , CA USA
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posted 19 March 2005 09:08 AM
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I play Paradise Isle in this tuning. What other tunes go well with this tuning? Many thanks, Rick |
Dan Sawyer
Member From: Studio City, California, USA
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posted 19 March 2005 10:51 AM
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Rick, I use a similar tuning. How do you tune yours? |
George Keoki Lake
Member From: Edmonton, AB., Canada
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posted 19 March 2005 11:51 AM
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Literally hundreds...but try TWILIGHT BLUES! 
Also, you might want to try the F#9 tuning for some really nice chords. HI to LO:
E C# G# E A# F#...it's one of my favorites for 6 string steel. [This message was edited by George Keoki Lake on 19 March 2005 at 11:53 AM.] |
Rick Collins
Member From: Claremont , CA USA
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posted 19 March 2005 02:55 PM
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Dan, from high to low on eight string:E-C#-G#-F#-E-D-B-E It's a beautiful sound, it just seems I must hit a lot of single notes on some tunes __
nothing wrong with single notes, of course. George, you are correct of course. I need to spend more time with this tuning. Sweet Someone fits it well. Many thanks, Rick |
Dan Sawyer
Member From: Studio City, California, USA
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posted 19 March 2005 04:12 PM
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Rick, we're talking about two different things. I would call your tuning an E 13th type. On top you've got a C# minor chord, but no 9th. My C# minor 9th tuning would be C#-E-G#-B-D#-F# low to hi, 6-string. I don't really play that tuning in C#, but i use down a whole step in Bmi9. |
Rick Collins
Member From: Claremont , CA USA
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posted 19 March 2005 04:53 PM
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Note the F# 4th string. |
Jeff Strouse
Member From: Jacksonville, Florida, USA
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posted 19 March 2005 08:47 PM
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For our shows, I play Aloha Tears, Sweet Someone, Twilight Blues, Boot Heel Drag, Paradise Isle and Song of the Islands in this tuning. I also like it for harmony background chordal fills. |
Dan Sawyer
Member From: Studio City, California, USA
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posted 19 March 2005 11:54 PM
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Rick, i wasn't arguing with you; just saying we're talking about two different things. F# is the 9th of E. The 9th of C# would be D#. There seem to be many ways of naming tunings, but the most important thing is the way we think and visualize the tunings. Some folks would see your tuning as an E tuning, some as C# minor. In the end of course, it's the music that matters. |
Jay Jessup
Member From: Charlottesville, VA, USA
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posted 20 March 2005 04:40 AM
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Dan,
The way Rick listed his version of the C#m9 tuning is exactly the way Jerry Byrd lists it in his book. |
Danny James
Member From: Columbus, Indiana, USA
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posted 20 March 2005 05:12 AM
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These tunings would work well with the eight string adjustable changer I have almost got completed for the lap steel I plan to build.
It will have three tunings at the present & could go to four. All tunings are adjustable to quickly raise or lower any string on any tuning. All done with the flip of a single lever.
The guitar will have either a gauged roller nut or an adjustable one.[This message was edited by Danny James on 20 March 2005 at 05:18 AM.] |
Jeff Strouse
Member From: Jacksonville, Florida, USA
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posted 20 March 2005 10:39 AM
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Danny are you using the Hipshot Trilogy unit? |
Danny James
Member From: Columbus, Indiana, USA
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posted 20 March 2005 01:04 PM
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No Jeff, this is not a trilogy hipshot changer or even close to their design nor anyone els's that I know of. Thanks for asking though.
This is a changer entirely of my own design. I have been working on it for 3 or 4 years now. It needs about 3 or 4 more hrs of work to be ready to install in a guitar. Just a few minor details to finish it up. I need to make and install a lever and put in the string holders yet. [This message was edited by Danny James on 20 March 2005 at 01:06 PM.] |
Dan Sawyer
Member From: Studio City, California, USA
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posted 20 March 2005 01:35 PM
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Jay and Rick, now i'm really confused! If Jerry Byrd says that's a C#minor tuning, i can't disagree. Danny, your changer sounds amazing. Please let us know when it's completed. hey, maybe you should think about selling them. |
Jeff Au Hoy
Member From: Honolulu, Hawai'i
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posted 20 March 2005 02:51 PM
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Dan, why can't you disagree? I wouldn't call that tuning C#m9. You could argue that it's an inversion of C#m, but it's a very weak one considering the E bass notes. Even at that, with a D in the tuning, the designation's wrong already... it should be C#mb9 in that case. The tuning is E13. Personally I think the old timers just called it C#m because it sounded cooler. And maybe they still call it that because it's nostalgic. Show me someone who actually conceptualizes the tuning as a C#m chord (and not an E6 or E13) and I'll play my next gig wearing half a canteloupe on my head. Rick, I second what Dan said... F# is the 9th of E, D# the 9th of C#.[This message was edited by Jeff Au Hoy on 20 March 2005 at 02:59 PM.] |
Jeff Strouse
Member From: Jacksonville, Florida, USA
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posted 20 March 2005 04:49 PM
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Jeff, is this the same E13 version that Jules (and Barney) used? (I'm wondering if Jules put the "B" in there E-C#-B-G#, as opposed to the E-C#-G#).I'm trying to figure out Jules's tunings used on the old Alfred Apaka show, which is quite a task!! Man, that cat could swing!![This message was edited by Jeff Strouse on 20 March 2005 at 04:56 PM.] |
basilh
Member From: United Kingdom
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posted 21 March 2005 02:36 AM
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I think that with the F# as well, you can't possibly call it ANY variation of C#min.. the F# would make the designation C#m7b9sus4
E13 end of story..
Baz |
Rick Collins
Member From: Claremont , CA USA
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posted 21 March 2005 06:48 PM
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Dan, you are certainly correct F# is the 9th of E.It isn't beyond me to admit that I don't know how this tuning came to be called C#m9th. Perhaps it evolved from another 6 string tuning, strings 7 & 8 were added, and the designation was kept the same. Rick |
basilh
Member From: United Kingdom
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posted 21 March 2005 08:37 PM
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Rick WHO calls it C#m9th ?..I think that one man calling a tuning by a certain name doesn't mean that it's correct.. it probably means his musical theory is a bit away from the accepted norm..
Baz[This message was edited by basilh on 21 March 2005 at 08:40 PM.] |
Dan Sawyer
Member From: Studio City, California, USA
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posted 22 March 2005 12:10 AM
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Rick, i bet you're right. It started out as C#minor and other strings were added. People just kept calling it C#mi. That theory makes the most sense.------------------
Dan Sawyer
Rickenbacher B6, Fender Dual Professional, Fender Deluxe 8 (trap), Fender "White" 6-string w legs, Carvin steel w HiseTri-plex.
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Jay Jessup
Member From: Charlottesville, VA, USA
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posted 22 March 2005 07:12 AM
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Basil & Co,
Jerry Byrd calls it that but that doesn't mean it's correct. They call the E9 pedal steel tuning chromatic when there's only one string that might be considered chromatic on it but it's been called that for so long it would be hard to change peoples mind now. I suspect it's just what others surmised, that the tuning Jerry calls C#m9 in his book evolved from something else. Wouldn't it need a B next to the C# to be called a E13? |
Gerald Ross
Member From: Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
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posted 22 March 2005 07:19 AM
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The one thing I don't like about the C#m family of tunings are the intervals between the 1-3 strings. When playing a melody line these intervals require much jumping around. The standard C6 tuning (CEGACE) requires much less bar movement for melodies. ------------------
Gerald Ross
'Northwest Ann Arbor, Michigan's King Of The Hawaiian Steel Guitar'
Gerald's Fingerstyle Guitar Website
Board of Directors Hawaiian Steel Guitar Association
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Andy Volk
Member From: Boston, MA
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posted 22 March 2005 07:48 AM
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Jay, I believe it just needs to have a 6th AND a 7th present anywhere in the tuning (or chord) to be termed a 13th. |
Rick Aiello
Member From: Berryville, VA USA
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posted 22 March 2005 08:39 AM
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OK ... Y'all made me dig out my ol' JB course.This course is designed to take a beginner and walk him/her through the "evolution" of steel tunin's ... introducing new playin' techniques and theory ... as they move from one "tuning/lesson set" to the next. The C#m 9th tuning in Book One is Lesson #5 ... It is immediately after the C#m lesson. From the text .... quote:
Again, we are simply adding to each tuning, as we proceed ...
quote:
Some chord theory explaination is necessary here, so that you may know what is meant by a "9th" (ninth) chord. Again we number the notes in the scale of E (still our basic open string chord).
E 1
F# 2
G# 3
A 4
B 5
C# 6
D# 7
(E) 8
(F#) 9
This continues to explain 9th chords, their inversions and their relationships to other chords. So, as you see ... he's teaching the beginner what a 9th chord is ... and is using the key of E ... to do so. He simply is using the C#m designation for "continuity" in his lesson plan ... because he's just adding a "new note" to the previous lessons tuning ... He does explain that the F# is the "ninth" in an E scale/chord. His treatment of the E13 tuning ... doesn't occur until Book 2 / Lesson 2 ... no F# present. ------------------
Aiello's House of Gauss
My wife and I don't think alike. She donates money to the homeless and I donate money to the topless! ... R. Dangerfield
[This message was edited by Rick Aiello on 22 March 2005 at 08:59 AM.]
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Jeff Au Hoy
Member From: Honolulu, Hawai'i
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posted 22 March 2005 09:00 AM
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Hey, Baz was right... some people do make up their own theory. Way to confuse the beginner... or at least set him/her up for some future head scratchings.[This message was edited by Jeff Au Hoy on 22 March 2005 at 09:00 AM.] |
Rick Aiello
Member From: Berryville, VA USA
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posted 22 March 2005 09:41 AM
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quote:
some people do make up their own theory. Way to confuse the beginner... or at least set him/her up for some future head scratchings.
No wonder I can't play wortha sh*$ ... That f^@&!#g a$$#$&e JB and his g@&&*m Lesson 5 ------------------
Aiello's House of Gauss
My wife and I don't think alike. She donates money to the homeless and I donate money to the topless! ... R. Dangerfield [This message was edited by Rick Aiello on 22 March 2005 at 09:47 AM.]
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Rick Collins
Member From: Claremont , CA USA
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posted 22 March 2005 10:24 AM
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Sometimes things can really get confusing.Example:
Christopher Columbus goes to Queen Isabella of Spain and says, "I can find a shorter route to India by sailing west; because the earth is round like my head". Queen Isabella says, "no, the earth is flat like your head; but here, take this money and get out of my sight". Chris on his route discovers America; or did he? How does one discover a country that is already inhabited. What gave ol' Chris the right to call the newly discovered inhabitants by the same name of a race of people 8,000 miles short of of his intended destination? 1. Queen Isabella was wrong __ the earth is not flat.
2. Christopher Columbus was wrong __the earth is not round.
3. The shape of the earth is an oblate spheroid. 1. Every year, the second Monday in October, I celebrate Columbus Day.
2. Many times I call the native Americans, "Indians".
3. Should I keep playing Paradise Isle on C#m9th? I think I will. |
Mike Neer
Member From: NJ
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posted 22 March 2005 10:34 AM
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The standard C6 tuning (CEGACE) requires much less bar movement for melodies.Moving the bar around is the fun part. |
Gerald Ross
Member From: Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
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posted 22 March 2005 10:46 AM
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Maybe so Mike. But I've never been able to really 'get' the C#m tuning. The top three strings do form a nice 6th chord. But what about a big fat major chord?I look forward to your book. Maybe it will open my eyes to the possibilities of this tuning. ------------------
Gerald Ross
'Northwest Ann Arbor, Michigan's King Of The Hawaiian Steel Guitar'
Gerald's Fingerstyle Guitar Website
Board of Directors Hawaiian Steel Guitar Association
[This message was edited by Gerald Ross on 22 March 2005 at 10:47 AM.] |
Mike Neer
Member From: NJ
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posted 22 March 2005 01:30 PM
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Gerald, I really don't have the time for the book project as of now. It seems it would be a real labor of love, and I definitely don't think I can afford another of those.Big Fat Major chord? E x G# E B E , that's pretty fat. E Maj. and C#m are great for old-time playing and improvising. I can get a surprising wide range of chords and harmonies out of them when I need to, especially E major. |
basilh
Member From: United Kingdom
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posted 22 March 2005 03:20 PM
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C#m9 = MUST have these notes-C# (tonic or root)
-E (Minor third)
-G# (Fifth)
-B (Seventh
-D# (Ninth)
and NO others...or if it does, it's name must include the extensions.
otherwise it's NOT C#m9 or a variant.. Applying the rules you're advocating would make our conversations contain words that have no place there. Then how would we communicate..The same analogy applies to music.. after all it is a method of communication, and not a platform for misinformation .... I don't care who gave it this name, or who advocates this name...It's totally wrong by all the rules of music.. Basil..[This message was edited by basilh on 22 March 2005 at 03:23 PM.] |
Rick Aiello
Member From: Berryville, VA USA
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posted 22 March 2005 04:32 PM
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quote:
Applying the rules you're advocating
Who are you referring to ... I've re-read the thread ... Mr. Collins said: quote:
Dan, you are certainly correct F# is the 9th of E.It isn't beyond me to admit that I don't know how this tuning came to be called C#m9th
Me ... I just dragged out the course in question ... read the "offending" lesson ... and reported: quote:
So, as you see ... he's teaching the beginner what a 9th chord is ... and is using the key of E ... to do so.He simply is using the C#m designation for "continuity" in his lesson plan ... because he's just adding a "new note" to the previous lessons tuning ... He does explain that the F# is the "ninth" in an E scale/chord.
I see nobody saying the chord should be called C#m9 ... So... JB made a "Faux Pas" ... when he entitled a lesson and a few tabs incorrectly. No need to assemble the "Anti-Audubon Society" ... just drag the old guy out for a good flogging ...  ------------------
Aiello's House of Gauss
My wife and I don't think alike. She donates money to the homeless and I donate money to the topless! ... R. Dangerfield
[This message was edited by Rick Aiello on 22 March 2005 at 04:39 PM.]
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basilh
Member From: United Kingdom
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posted 23 March 2005 01:01 PM
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Rick ..Surely the thread title "C# minor 9th"
and the very first post quote:
I play Paradise Isle in this tuning.
What other tunes go well with this tuning?
Suggest that this is the name of a tuning ?
I did say "those who advocate the use of this name"
I NEVER would dare to criticize JB..I have to much respect for the man and his achievements re the Steel Guitar, whoever his critic are, don't count me as one of them..
Laudable as you defense of him is.. it was totally unnecessary..
Basil |
Rick Aiello
Member From: Berryville, VA USA
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posted 23 March 2005 02:24 PM
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quote:
just drag the old guy out for a good flogging
 quote:
It ain't as bad as you think ... its over fast ... and then a Hot Babe spoon feeds you ...
Basil ... good to hear you are a member of the "Audubon Society". ------------------
Aiello's House of Gauss
My wife and I don't think alike. She donates money to the homeless and I donate money to the topless! ... R. Dangerfield
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Jeff Au Hoy
Member From: Honolulu, Hawai'i
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posted 23 March 2005 04:57 PM
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I like birds. |
Mike Neer
Member From: NJ
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posted 23 March 2005 05:00 PM
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Especially minor birds. |
Jeff Au Hoy
Member From: Honolulu, Hawai'i
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posted 23 March 2005 05:20 PM
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ooo... low blow. |
Rick Collins
Member From: Claremont , CA USA
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posted 23 March 2005 05:43 PM
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E-13th sounds good to me. But, there seem to be a number of ways to tune to E-13th. There should be a way of denoting by name, to which E-13th one is refering.The tuning beginning E-C#-B-G# & etc. is most familiar to me; but does not E-6th also begin this way? Rick |
basilh
Member From: United Kingdom
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posted 24 March 2005 02:35 AM
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Well Rick.. I think that because the F# is not necessary for the designation E13th, there should be a qualifier if it's included..like E13 added 9th.. Also as the high G# is not normally used by Hawaiian players I think that Standard E13th should apply to the one using E as the top note and either Western E13th or the Helms E13th to refer to the one using the high G#.. Just a start..
Baz |
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