6 string, 8 string, twin, triple, quad, pedal and in what format i.e. C6/E9, 12 string Universal or ?
Just what are your perceptions of the hardest or most difficult to play.
Baz

the hardest one is the one I don't know. So for me, anything E9 (any number of strings/pedals/knees) or modern C6 with too many strings

Also, string spacing seems important to me on 6 string and steel.

But ignoring that, some instuments are more difficult than others for playing basic scales and melodies, with a little harmony. Steel guitar is a funny instrument in that all notes are not equally easy to get, in fact, some are near impossible. Except for the minor difference between white and black keys, all the notes of the chromatic scale are equally easy to hit (I play piano), and the same is true for most horns (I play sax). But a steel guitar only has the strings for a chord or two, not even the whole scale, much less the chromatic scale. Of course, for single string stuff you can move the bar to different frets. But moving the bar and your whole hand and arm is way less efficient than tickling the keys with your fingers. And if you want to add some harmony it gets very complicated fast. You end up using slants, nonintuitive string combinations. And you might have to move down the neck for a higher inversion, or up the neck for a lower one.

After 40+ years I am almost to the point that I really "feel" the lap steel. In six string A6th tuning, I am very comfortable and I can sing the notes as I play them. Old jazz players used to call this "blowin" the instrument.

I have become so familiar with the scales that I can play what I want when I want.

Not so with the Pedal Steel!!! I haven't got the faintest Idea what notes I am playing on any fret with this pedal and that knee lever engaged. I can play pretty well, but it's all just smoke and mirrors. Licks that I know will work in any key by moving the bar to that scale position.

To me the chord possibilites are endless, and it is mind boggling to try to memorize where all the notes are with pedal changes!!!

Just my oppinion.

quote:

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"It is easy to play, but hard to play well."

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I just finished a book called, "This is Your Brain on Music" where the author suggests that it takes about 10,000 hours of practice to master any instrument.

I figure once you have mastered an instrument it is then easy for you to play; at that point it is all about making music, not so much about the technical difficulties in playing the instrument.

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Lynn Oliver

NP (for me) required more real estate for one floor plan.
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Matt

[This message was edited by Matt Rhodes on 31 October 2006 at 11:54 AM.]

All in all, I think it is which style you learned to play on.

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(I am not right all of the time but I sure like to think I am!)

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Bobby Lee (a.k.a. b0b) - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
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Sierra Laptop S-8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster D-8 (E13, C6 or A6) My Blog

Neither instrument is "harder" to play than the other IMO.

Maybe they mean that, like b0b said, it's easier to play something that will impress people on a pedal steel, whereas difficult things on non-pedal might not get noticed. That's fair enough. There are major differences in how the instruments are played, and if one played pedal steel in the stereotypical don't move the bar and only play major scales type way then it might be easier. And there are some things that can be done on pedal steel that are difficult to do on non-pedal. But assuming that one is learning slants, fluid bar movement, varied right hand technique, music theory and how it applies to the tuning and all that--in other words, learning to play steel guitar--then I don't see how adding extra variables can be seen as simplifying anything. Even a volume pedal adds a layer of difficulty.

This says nothing about the musical reach or validity of the instrument--Jerry Douglas and others have shown that even a G tuned dobro has as much depth as the musician is able to bring. Pedal steel is just harder to play.

Now, how much harder is the tough question, along with the question of what happens when that extra difficulty has been (more or less) overcome, and using the pedals and extra strings has become (more or less) second nature. Can the extra body movements required still be considered an extra layer of "difficulty" at that point? Do the extra strings, once learned, simplify the process of finding notes, or is an uncomplicated tuning still easier? Or do the two instruments differ enough in approach that that once a certain level of proficiency is achieved it becomes impossible to compare?

-Travis

[This message was edited by Travis Bernhardt on 13 November 2006 at 10:39 PM.]

I don't know about some of you all. But Herbie can play plenty on nonpedal that I can only dream about.

[This message was edited by Edward Meisse on 14 November 2006 at 12:07 AM.]

That doesn't mean better music. The two instruments are beautiful but different, and each has sounds and strengths that are unique.

Harder to play? It depends entirely on the style of music and the skill level of the player.

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http://www.johnmcgann.com
Info for musicians, transcribers, technique tips and fun stuff. Joaquin Murphey transcription book, Rhythm Tuneup DVD and more...

That's kind of a cheap shot, but I'll admit that the idea is an interesting one, and I hadn't thought of it that way.

I still don't agree, though, and I think that two of your three reasons for playing non-pedal can be interpreted in a way that makes pedal steel appear to be the harder instrument:

1. "Because it is such a challenge to my left hand"

My feeling, and this is of course subjective, is that played "properly" pedal steel should be equally difficult for the left hand, but with the extra thinking required to know where to move one's hand given a certain pedal or pedal combination.

If the bar isn't moving, I don't think the instrument is being fully exploited.

Of course, there are styles in which minimal bar movement is perfectly appropriate, and I suppose one could argue that there is less overall bar movement needed on pedal steel. Maybe, but I think that difficulty wise this is more than compensated for by having to "change tunings on the fly" by pushing the pedals. There is more complexity in a ten string C6 pedal steel tuning than there is in a six string C6 non-pedal tuning, and to exploit this extra complexity requires more knowledge. It doesn't do the work for you.

If I hear what you're saying correctly you're saying that really "the hard way is the easy way", and that once learned the pedals are the equivalent of, say, extra gears on a bicycle: they don't make it more complicated to ride, they just make it easier over a variety of terrain.

I won't argue that pedal steel doesn't make some things easier, after all it wouldn't have been invented if it didn't! But don't we tend to teach children to ride on bikes without gears? (Yeah, yeah, there may be other reasons for that, but I think the point is still fair.)

2. "Because it's easier to sound stylistically different from other players."

I think this is an important point. Why is it that it's easier to sound different? I don't know the answer, but could it be that pedal steel is just really hard to play, and that most people don't overcome the difficulty, instead staying with what's "easy" to do?

Okay, so that's a bit glib, but I honestly don't know the answer. I think the question is very interesting, though.

3. "Because it discourages noodling and encourages me to think more deeply about making every note harmonically relavant."

For me personally, I don't find that to be the case.

I wonder if we're talking about different things... "Minimalism leading to complexity" vs. "complications allowing for simplicity" seems to be the debate, but I'm not sure those ideas are mutually exclusive. Maybe there's some common ground to be found if we can clarify just what we're talking about.

-Travis

[This message was edited by Travis Bernhardt on 15 November 2006 at 01:00 AM.]

quote:

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I think that people are more impressed by easy things on the pedal steel....

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Pedal
Sleepy Lagoon (Emmons D-10)

[This message was edited by basilh on 15 November 2006 at 06:32 AM.]

Sleepy Lagoon would also sound better on the Stringmaster.

[This message was edited by Rick Collins on 15 November 2006 at 07:44 AM.]

Both tunes you posted are beautifully played and are classic steel guitar arrangements.

However, using these two particular tunes is not a very good way to compare the two types of steel guitar: that is to say, the tone difference, the sustain nor the difficulty of playing when comparing the two types.

The big difference off the top is the sustain of the two guitars because of the tempo of the two musical pieces and the mood that one wants to bring out of those two tunes. The Steel Guitar Rag in the style that it was played required a lot of string muting; thus, killing a great deal of the non-pedal’s sustain abilities. The Steel Guitar Rag was intended to be played as a bouncy instrumental. And it was played beautifully that way.

The Sleepy Lagoon however, which his been a long time favourite of mine, is a classic tune to show the steel’s sustain range and the emotional tone of a steel guitar. In fact, this is one of the group of tunes that should be played to demonstrate the amount of sustain you can get out of various brands of steel guitars. Plus of course, with the full chords.

I have a so called cheapy D8 that has fabulous sustain that can equal a fender and with the proper pickup and amp settings sounds like a pedal steel. However; I can play tunes like the Steel Guitar Rag that has tons of string muting which really brings out the western swing sound. I also play tunes like Blue Eyes Crying In The Rain where I use a lot of extended sustain in some areas of the song.

On the other side of the coin in all this, I cannot duplicate Buddy Emmons pedal steel version of the Steel Guitar Rag on my D8. I either need pedals or a ten string (if that makes any sense to you guys).

Could he duplicate my D8 version? Well, with some practice he might.

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(I am not right all of the time but I sure like to think I am!)

[This message was edited by Les Anderson on 15 November 2006 at 01:03 PM.]