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THE C6th TUNING :( (Page 2)
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The Steel Guitar Forum
Bar Chatter Archive
THE C6th TUNING :( (Page 2)
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| This topic is 3 pages long: 1 2 3 This topic was originally posted in this forum: Wanted To Buy |
| Author | Topic: THE C6th TUNING :( |
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whhs Member Posts: 70 |
posted 19 August 2000 05:46 PM
Depress pedals A & B,on the E9.You've got a lot of C6 going for you.Ever listen to Curly play Paper Roses? Harold Steele |
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Al Marcus Member Posts: 7471 |
posted 19 August 2000 08:23 PM
Does your statement mean that you believe the E9/B6 U12 tuning is now replacing the D10 E9-C6 configuration??? That trend does seem to be in the direction that the steel guitar is going. But the 6th tuning, whether C6, A6,Bb6,B6,D6, and E6th is alive and well, thank you.....al [This message was edited by Al Marcus on 19 August 2000 at 08:26 PM.] |
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Richard Sinkler Member Posts: 2896 |
posted 19 August 2000 08:24 PM
Did I miss an election where we all voted Bob Anderson as the top expert in this field. Didn't think so. ------------------ |
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Dan Tyack Member Posts: 3552 |
posted 20 August 2000 12:21 AM
The original poster is simply missing the whole point. Of what, you may ask. Well, of music. The steel guitar is simply a tool we use to get the music out that is within us. The tunings we use are also tools. Saying a tuning is 'dead' is a meaningless concept. It is true that the concept of applying the steel guitar (and the C6th tuning) to playing swing music hasn't been very successful, either in terms of commercial acceptance or acceptance from the jazz world. But tunings or the instrument are just tools. Just because you play an instrument that is tuned to c6th doesn't mean you need to play steel guitar swing licks. ------------------ |
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Bob Hoffnar Member Posts: 4278 |
posted 20 August 2000 12:46 AM
I find myself playing the C neck almost exclusivly when I work on new music by composers in NYC. What I play for those gigs has absolutly nothing to do with standard steel playing. The C neck offers me more intervalic options and I like the tone better for single note phrases. For standard comercial steel gigs I find myself playing the C neck more and more as I learn it. My suggestion to Mr. Anderson is if it seems real dark and everything smells bad you should check where you stuck you head before you spout such drivel. Bob [This message was edited by Bob Hoffnar on 20 August 2000 at 12:49 AM.] |
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Bob Anderson Member Posts: 119 |
posted 20 August 2000 01:37 AM
I want to thank each and every one of you for your imput about the C6th tuning. I have e-mailed everybody on the first page to thank them for speaking from the heart about the love they have for this instrument. I really did enjoy ALL the comments that were made. Thank you all for not chewing me up and spitting me out.. It was great fun, thanks again  THE C6th TUNING |
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erik Member Posts: 1793 |
posted 20 August 2000 04:20 AM
This reminds me of a comedy bit a guy does on the radio about jazz music just being a bunch selfish musicians noodling on their instruments. I heard this guy do it live on public radio and it worked extremely well. All these people started calling in and arguing with the guy and defending jazz music. It went on for well over an hour, until it was finally revealed it was a joke. Anyways, i enjoy hearing C6th playing, even more so than E9th, because it is new to me as a listener. |
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Bobby Lee Sysop Posts: 14849 |
posted 20 August 2000 08:19 AM
I think the straw man has been shot down. |
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Joe Herchel unregistered Posts: 14849 |
posted 20 August 2000 09:02 AM
"Jazz isn't so great, they just make it up as they go along." - Homer Simpson |
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C Dixon Member Posts: 5912 |
posted 20 August 2000 09:05 AM
I truly believe Bob made a good point. I love to play C6. Have for over 40 yrs. But I must say, one does not hear much of it on recordings. Watch players just about everywhere. Especially young ones. Watch what neck they use. My own personal problem with C6 as played (what little I see), falls into two basic categories; "no slant" western swing or "jamming" often erroneously referred to as "jazz". My take and love for C6 is the way JB played it. Pure beautiful melody but with a "sixth" flavor, unlike E9th. I often wish someone would use the pedals/knee levers in that way as a 3rd option on the neck. I try, but since I am a terrible player, it doesn't count. But in the hands of the pros I just feel it would be heard much more on records if it was played this way. My opinions of course. Walk with HIM, carl |
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Jerry Hayes Member Posts: 3306 |
posted 20 August 2000 09:21 AM
My real gripe with the C6th is the tone a lot of guys use with it! The tuning per se isn't the culprit. It just seems to evoke certain sounds I guess. Jim Bob do you remember a guy in L.A. (I can't remember his name) who used to play around the Pioneer Room and places like that who played an Emmons double 10 which was kind of a lavender color? He was short and had sort of blondish gray hair. Any way to shorten things up, he played only C6th. Didn't ever touch his E9th neck. He told me once he thought he might try someday to learn to play it but I don't think he needed it. He played "Together Again" or any of those E9 rides on the inside neck. Then there's my old friend Blackie Taylor. I went to see Blackie one night with a guy name Carl Cody at a club and I thought Ralph Mooney was playing steel. Blackie plays a single neck 12 string A6th and does it well. Herby Wallace plays some bright sounding things on C6th which I really like too! Mike Perlowin mentioned Curley Chalker! What a great monster player but, When I got my copy of "Big Hits on Big Steel" I played it once and never played it again but my album of Curley playing with Merle Travis is a different story. A lot of the same licks but without that muddy tone. That's where it's at for me. It's a tone thing. ------------------ |
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Bill Bailey Member Posts: 681 |
posted 20 August 2000 09:30 AM
Jeff Lambert said" Gentlemen start your Bunsen burners" and I laughed real hard. This thread was worth a good laugh and I am glad I checked it out. One comment I would like to make is, I think anyone who never heard Curly Chalker Play Danny Boy on Charley McCoys version of this song is missing an amazing performance, the likes of which IMHO has never been equaled on that particular song. I have enjoyed learning the C-6th neck in the last couple of years since I was able to get a couple of courses by Jeff Newman, and Buddy Emmons. These courses relate the C-6th to E- 9th very well and Have made a lot musical doors open to me. Thanks for listening. Now, gentlemen Please turn off the Bunsen burners. Bill Bailey Kingman,AZ ------------------ [This message was edited by Bill Bailey on 20 August 2000 at 09:33 AM.] [This message was edited by Bill Bailey on 20 August 2000 at 09:40 AM.] |
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Al Marcus Member Posts: 7471 |
posted 20 August 2000 09:33 AM
Carl, I agree with what you are saying on your post. We just don't hear enough "beautiful Melodic" solos on the C6th neck. That is the kind of music I like to play on my E6th tuning. It doesn't matter about whether it is A6 or C6 or E6. It doesn't have to be just "Jazz" or "Western Swing". Just play the Melody with some nice chords......al |
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Bob Anderson Member Posts: 119 |
posted 20 August 2000 10:19 AM
Right on Al,striaght and to the point. Strawmen and bunsen burners? I wonder who their talking about  |
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kyle reid Member Posts: 468 |
posted 20 August 2000 02:29 PM
Paul C. Right On Buddy! Here's a guy that lives in a town thats not even on the map? {Go ahead look it up}He gets more replys than all the threads Ive ever posted! Just consider the source, |
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Gary Walker Member Posts: 1446 |
posted 20 August 2000 05:42 PM
Hi Guys, what a hoot this has been. Bob and I exchanged emails and He was very gracious. I enjoyed seeing these C6 players come alive. When you start stepping on our precious toes our blood starts boiling. The reason builders make double neckers so that they can cater to those of us that enjoy jumping on the BIG stuff and some of us imagine ourselves being CURLY for a little while. My hair was thick and wavy and was called "curly" a lot and with a last name of Walker, it didn't hurt a bit. I appreciate Mike P with his two words, "Curly Chalker" and as Dick Curless said on his introduction of CC, "I can say no more". Thanks, Gary |
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John Cadeau Member Posts: 355 |
posted 20 August 2000 06:13 PM
The C6th tuning works just fine, in country, western swing, blues, jazz, rock, and classical music. It probably works well in music genres's that a lot of us have never heard. It will never die. John ------------------ |
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Gary Walker Member Posts: 1446 |
posted 20 August 2000 06:22 PM
I wanted to tell of once before Tom Brumley quit Buck and having played Together Again a jillion times, Buck was singing it again for the multiple eon times, his backup was on the C6th instead of the E9th and it was every bit as soulful as his many times the way he did it on the record we heard while our children grew from childhood to adults. What I'm saying, in the right hands, it can sing and sing and sing. And another thing, Johnny Cox with a 3 necker. Egads, the necks are taking over the world. Atta boy, Johnny, Thanks, Gary. |
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Dennis Detweiler Member Posts: 1700 |
posted 20 August 2000 06:53 PM
Bob! Mike came up with a good answer with "Curley". Does Moe and Larry sound more familiar? |
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Ray Montee Member Posts: 4090 |
posted 20 August 2000 07:43 PM
This has to be the most disgusting post I have ever read on this forum. Once again, it's a case of "somebody" knows more than everyone else about C6th. It's similar to those other posts where the neofites are discussing their preference for R & Roll on lap steel with fuzz, etc. Now we have GOSPEL steel guitars, pedal steel guitars and PALM PEDALS? When Bigsby discussed those items with me, they used to be used as a "vibrato" unit; like Grady Martin used them on the Opry with Red Foley and others. But then again, what did the greats really know when some of the youngin's of today know EVERYTHING! Some of you fellows could make the all time GREATS want to quit the business. If only they had had you to draw on for their musical success! UGH! I'm sick! This may very well be my last post on this forum. Right on KENNY! I could never have said it better! |
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Jim Bob Sedgwick Member Posts: 1234 |
posted 20 August 2000 07:56 PM
Reply to Paul Cockburn> AMEN! > |
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Jim Bob Sedgwick Member Posts: 1234 |
posted 20 August 2000 08:04 PM
Jerry, I don't recall the steeler you mentioned. But for those neophytes here, if you put the A,B,C pedals on a 6th tuning and skip the 6th note of the scale, you have the same thing as a ninth, and that is what a lot of single neck players are doing. Johnny Davis and Bob Boydd did this. I defy you to tell the difference except maybe a slight amount of More Body present in the sound. Different strokes for different folks. |
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Kenny Dail Member Posts: 2583 |
posted 20 August 2000 10:49 PM
I consider myself a person with a pretty good sense of humor and can take a joke as good as anyone else. The post as presented gave no indication of trying to be funny but instead it appeared to me as if he was totally ignorant and of the many styles and voicings that are available on the C6 and was inviting the "strawmen and the bunsen burners". As a result...even with my limited knowledge, I was ready to argue the point and inform him of the capabilities available.  As it turned out he was only crying "wolf". the next time he cries "wolf", he may very well be at the door, but of course we know you're only kidding. Right? As it turned out, I guess everybody had a good laugh at the expense of the serious minded musicians, be it C6 or E9. To make one more point, I find all the tunings we enjoy are modifications of the old E major tuning or the A major. The same pockets found on the C6 can also be found on the E9th as well as all the other tunings I am familiar with, of course the serious musicians already know this and know how to use it to their advantage in their style of music. After all, even our "tool" is only as good as the "mechanic." Now I'm going to go to my room and "laugh my (_!_) off at this stupid post". ------------------ |
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frank rogers Member Posts: 711 |
posted 21 August 2000 05:15 AM
Dan Tyack, Thanks for bringing some sanity to this thread. Your observations are "right on"! ------------------ |
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Bob Farlow Member Posts: 895 |
posted 21 August 2000 05:37 AM
I hope no one tells John Hughey, Buddy Emmons, Paul Franklin, Johnny Cox, Tommy White, and Weldon Myrick that C6 is dead! |
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Al Marcus Member Posts: 7471 |
posted 21 August 2000 08:49 PM
Jim Bob made a good point about C6. If you put the A and B pedals on the C6 ,and use pedal 7 for your C pedal. You have a very close sound to the E9th. Flat both B's for the Eb knee, and sharp both C's for the F knee.(that also gives a A7th with the 8th pedal. Raise the 4th string a tone to B and put the D on the 1st string and you have the so called chromatics...No C6 is not dead...al |
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Stephen Gregory Member Posts: 287 |
posted 22 August 2000 05:12 AM
Do you think the soprano sax is dead just because Kenny G. plays one? |
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Richard Sinkler Member Posts: 2896 |
posted 22 August 2000 07:35 AM
Stephen, one can only hope  ------------------ |
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Susan Alcorn Member Posts: 259 |
posted 22 August 2000 04:28 PM
I think the thing is that certain sounds and certain ideas seem to fall easier with some tunings than other ones, and everyone has different taste. I just loved all those Curley Chalker swing records; to play in that style is very difficult with the traditional E9th tuning, and it is also difficult and awkward to play the beautiful E9th things on a 6th tuning. I hope that no tuning and no sound will ever die, but things do need to change and evolve. For my purposes and for the music that interests me, a sixth tuning became redundant a long time ago. On a sixth tuning, you can get some big fat chords, but you're very limited on the single string playing. Also, you're limited to what chords you can produce. I think we've all heard the 4 chord with the 6th pedal depressed more than we need to. About 15 years ago I took off the low C string and put a D between the C and E strings in the middle, and when I did that, the world opened up to me. |
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Susan Alcorn Member Posts: 259 |
posted 22 August 2000 07:09 PM
Jeff, You are absolutely right. And everyone has their own approach, but for me a lot of bar movement is very diffiicult. All of those chords are there (as they are also on the E9th when you omit some of the roots), but look at the chord voicings. For me, having a "D" for the 7th string gave me easy reach of quartal chords, diatonic scales, and voicings with dissonance in the lower mid range. But in saying that, I will say that a good musician will find what he or she needs to say on any instrument or any tuning including the pennywhistle and, of course, the accordion and t bandoneon. Having witnessed Pauline Oliveros and Astor Piazolla, I was amazed at what versatile, physical, and breathing instruments they are. |
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Jeff Lampert Member Posts: 2636 |
posted 22 August 2000 07:19 PM
IMO, the single string versatility on the C6 is the equal of the E9. It does, however, demand a different understanding of the scales, and one has to do considerably more bar movement and less staying on a single fret. As far as chords go, there is a lot more than just the "big fat chords" on the C6; the range of chord types and the availability of 4-7 string voicings all over the neck, requiring nothing more than a "thumb strum" is, IMO, far, far greater than the E9. Yes, admittedly there are more I,IV,V,minor, and flat-seventh inversions on the E9. But when you go for jazz, show music, swing, big band, etc., and you need to locate your 7b5, m7b5, 7aug5b9, 9aug5, 9b5, 13b5, m6b5, 13aug5b9, dim9, 11aug9, m11, maj13, maj9b5, 13b5aug9, etc. etc. in enough positions so that you can play a lead melody line over them, there is no contest. Even though a number of players have inserted the "D" note into the middle register, it takes away a great deal of the middle register chords, unless you use four picks or can do thumb-muting like BE, neither of which most players do. Since I'm a chord guy, it is unacceptable to me to give up so much of the awesome chord strength of the C6 to have the one extra note of the scale. I think we all have to make our compromises. |
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Mark Krutke Member Posts: 561 |
posted 22 August 2000 07:24 PM
I like using my C6th neck for slicing hard-boiled eggs for my salad........just kidding. Like my teacher said, "It keeps your playing from getting boring." I think it'll be around for a while if we can wedge it into radio land. |
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Al Marcus Member Posts: 7471 |
posted 22 August 2000 08:26 PM
Jeff, I have to agree with a lot of what you are saying on your post.I thought about that D down there too, but as you said. It does take away from us strumming nice chords with the melody always on top.There is pros and cons both ways. For hot single note pickers, it might be better for the D there. But for a solid chord players, it gets in the way....al |
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Gary Carpenter Member Posts: 16 |
posted 22 August 2000 10:29 PM
Personally,I think Amin.is dead-----? |
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Susan Alcorn Member Posts: 259 |
posted 23 August 2000 04:45 AM
Four picks -- yes, definitely. If you have a D in the middle, four picks are (IMO) absoolutely necessary. Maurice Anderson used to say that you've got that extra finger just sitting there anyway, why not put a pick on it, and if you need to use it, there it is. And really, if you are going to get serious about extended chords, you want to be able to pick and choose which notes you put in there. |
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Steel tryin Member Posts: 298 |
posted 23 August 2000 07:13 AM
This is a thread like OPINIONS; everybody has one. For those that feel C6 is dead or unemotional you have not heard Johnny Cox play The Shadow of Your Smile/Nearness of You Medley. Check it out on Shuffles and Ballads |
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CrowBear Schmitt Member Posts: 6016 |
posted 23 August 2000 09:18 AM
i discovered C6 4 the first time 'bout 5 months ago ! Having turned in my ol' Maverick 4 a D10 "Bud" Pro. that C6 neck is Great ! it's sounds better than the E9. Rich,Deep,+Warm ( i Love that "B Wah ! )i prefer playin' on it cause it's Wide. i'm not much of a reference 4 talkin C6, but i'll be hanged if C6 is Dead ! U don't know what U've got, till its Gone ! Steel Jivin' |
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John Borchard Member Posts: 224 |
posted 23 August 2000 01:24 PM
Bob, you said that if Jerry Byrd was starting out today, he'd be a novelty act. C'mon, friend, his ability, inventiveness, and complete musicality are as apparent now as they ever were. True, he's not getting airplay like Metallica, Shania Twain or Eminem, but his influence will certainly surpass theirs when veiwed 50 years hence. Just my two cents. And by the way, I liked Joe Ely's work with Aweep at the Steel, too. JB |
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kyle reid Member Posts: 468 |
posted 23 August 2000 02:41 PM
Let me ask ! How many of You guys play Nitelife on E9? I say None! End of all subject matter! |
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Jim Smith Member Posts: 6399 |
posted 23 August 2000 06:43 PM
GD Walker does on his extended E9, and it sounds great too! |
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