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Modal Thinking (Page 2)
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The Steel Guitar Forum
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Modal Thinking (Page 2)
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| This topic is 2 pages long: 1 2 This topic was originally posted in this forum: Wanted To Buy |
| Author | Topic: Modal Thinking |
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Gene Jones Member Posts: 5796 |
posted 07 March 2001 03:46 PM
I've got a headache! |
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Paul Graupp Member Posts: 3199 |
posted 08 March 2001 10:37 AM
A lot of good thinking here and it will take some time to digest all of it but I would like one question, please. About half way through, I stopped and took some time out. I plotted out all modes from Ionian to Locrian to the 13 step. Then I extracted 7th chords from each of them and in all cases, except for the starting point, the chords were the same in each mode. The minor 7ths, Major 7ths, dom 7ths and dim 7ths were all the same as in the Ionian except that they were in a different sequence. So barring exceptions, my question is this: Has anything really changed ? Regards, Paul |
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Jeff A. Smith Member Posts: 807 |
posted 08 March 2001 03:38 PM
John K.- Thanks for the above insight. It's personally very meaningful. Same to you, Chas. |
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Jeff A. Smith Member Posts: 807 |
posted 08 March 2001 03:41 PM
John K.- Thanks for the above insight, it is personally very meaningful. Same to you, Chas. |
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chas smith Member Posts: 3168 |
posted 08 March 2001 07:19 PM
Ionian......C D E F G A B C Dorian......C D Eb F G A Bb C Phrygian....C Db Eb F G Ab Bb C Lydian......C D E F# G A B C Myxolydian..C D E F G A Bb C Aeolian.....C D Eb F G Ab Bb C Locrian.....C Db Eb F Gb Ab Bb C [This message was edited by chas smith on 08 March 2001 at 07:22 PM.] |
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Paul Graupp Member Posts: 3199 |
posted 11 March 2001 10:34 AM
Something John Paul Jones said to someone else got me back into the think tank and onto my word pro. This time I plotted out all major scales and all modes. There staring me in the face were all the Modes as Chas has them layed out, each within their respective major scales. Like John Paul said; you've got to spend more time and get it for yourself. It's there for the work. Chas, a big thank you for inspiring me to explore further. The learning is fun. Now if I can find all of this on my Carter D-12. Paul |
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chas smith Member Posts: 3168 |
posted 11 March 2001 02:40 PM
I don't think the Carter D-12 has these, you may have to switch to Sho-Bud. |
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Paul Graupp Member Posts: 3199 |
posted 13 March 2001 10:20 AM
chas: I kept up this process until it became obvious that the following is true. Wholetones are 2s and Haltones are 1s. Looks like a truth table but that remains to be seen. Borrowing again from John Paul, his W W H W W W H becomes 2 2 1 2 2 2 1. And borrowing from Ed Packard, is this intervalese ? Ionian 2 2 1 2 2 2 1 Your pattern began with C. Using this pattern beginning with any tone name down the first row and filling in the steps, you |
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Paul Graupp Member Posts: 3199 |
posted 13 March 2001 12:26 PM
D - - - Beginners!! Try it again Paul. Ionian-------2 2 1 2 2 2 1 |
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John Steele Member Posts: 2469 |
posted 13 March 2001 01:28 PM
That's great guys, and true enough... I know it's all semantics, but I think you're making work for yourself. (just mho) First of all, I want to reiterate my point that the study of modes in strictly to apprise yourself of an available pool of notes from which to draw when playing over a particular chord. Modes are not really meant to be played as scales. As someone mentioned earlier, they practiced playing modes for years and it never got them anywhere... That's because they studied form rather than function (again, mho). If you use modes strictly in scale form, they sound pretty silly. Again, they are a pool of notes from which to draw-- to mix, match, arppegiate, etc. etc... Not little chunks of Do Re Mi. I try to look at it this way: Take the Locrian mode. To be honest, I had to look up the name of that mode, because the name means nothing to me. The use of it, however, is paramount. Example: You are learning a new jazz tune from a fake book (say, "I Thought About you" or "What a difference a day makes", or "Autumn Leaves", or many other tunes) The chart calls for a Am7b5 chord. (Also called A half diminished). Fine. That's what the "Locrian Mode" is for - half diminished chords. But, I don't think to myself "Oh, A Locrian, that's HWWHWW.." That's like learning a whole bunch of new scale patterns. To heck with that. Instead "I think A half diminished... that's from the Bb scale... my available pool of notes". Everyone looks at it from a different angle. Whatever works for you. I don't pretend to be an authority on this. As a sidebar, there is another mode used for m7b5 (half diminished) chords too: the 6th mode of the melodic minor scale. I.E., our same Am7b5 chord can be derived from the C melodic minor scale. The difference is in the 9th tone. It's more modern sounding. I'm not sure what it's called - because that only matters when you're communicating it verbally. I just play 'em  I'll look it up. -John |
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Jeff A. Smith Member Posts: 807 |
posted 13 March 2001 03:26 PM
I have certain jazz method books that give a definite preference to the m7b5 scale you mention over the locrian. Right now,If I'm playing over "Autumn Leaves", I'm much more likely to use locrian and the 5th mode of harmonic minor over the minor ii-V's, with a dim. scale 1/2 step up from the v7b9 sometimes. I'd like to get better at hearing in more of a jazz way, instead of what might be, I don't know, almost a basic classical way. Unless I'm wrong, the melodic minor modes are used more in jazz than the harmonic minor's. [This message was edited by Jeff A. Smith on 13 March 2001 at 03:41 PM.] |
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John Steele Member Posts: 2469 |
posted 13 March 2001 06:22 PM
Jeff, for kicks, when you are playing over the minor ii-v-i parts of Autumn Leaves, for the V chord, try the 7th mode of the melodic minor scale. (Locrian?) This makes the v chord into an alt. chord. It'll make your hair stand on end. For instance, I'll assume you are playing it in one sharp... that would make the V in the minor ii-v-i a B chord. Try C melodic minor. I agree with you, the melodic minor scale is the essence of modern jazz. More to come. -John |
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chas smith Member Posts: 3168 |
posted 13 March 2001 08:10 PM
Back to the modes for a bit. What these are derived from, besides a misinterpretation of the Greek modes back in medieval times, is really major scales. For instance in Ionian, the 1st mode, C is the 1st note of what scale? C would be a good guess. For C Dorian, the 2nd mode, C is the 2nd note of what scale? Bb, so the Bb key signature applies to the C scale. For the 3rd mode, Phrygian, C is the 3rd note of what scale? Ab, so the Ab key signature applies and so on... What this leads to is what are the important notes in these scales that give it it's signature and those would be the notes that would be emphasized. (I know this sounds simplistic) For instance, soloing D Dorian over C I would expect to hear a lot of D, F, and A. Playing C Lydian, the F# is the signature note; in Phrygian, the 'spanish mode', I expect a focus on C, Db and Eb; C Myxolydian, we've become a dominant phrase,C7, and we're now in the key of F. The point of all this is if you know your major scales you know all the modes. At this point you should probably be talking to Mike Ihde. [This message was edited by chas smith on 13 March 2001 at 08:14 PM.] |
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