posted 31 January 2001 01:39 PM         

Ok, since I fired the first shot, I guess I should write what I know.
First, my usual disclaimers; I hope I don't sound like an authority, 'cause I'm not a great steel player, or a school-educated musician. I'm a working musician though, and I've studied this stuff and learned from older guys, some heavies, who are willing to explain things. Here's the way it was explained to me (All examples C6):

So, you're a junior jazz musician in the year 1944, trying to wrap your head around
various theories, and just trying to plain understand why guys pick the notes they
pick to play, and why they sound good..... The old guys that play Dixieland have
taught you a few basic things. Like, for instance, you have learned that a D minor 7
chord (D-7) has a D note, and an F and an A. That's the basic triad. Root, minor third and fifth.

So, when you are improvising over a D-7 chord (or composing, for that matter),
you use those three notes... and just those three notes, in combinations. You sound
kinda boring.

Later on, you meet some more modern bop-oriented players, and they explain to you
that in addition to those three notes of the D minor chord (D,F,A) , you can also use
a C (the 7th), E (the ninth), G (the 11th) and even B (the thirteenth).

So, you decide to spell that whole D minor chord out on the piano....
Now, at this juncture, if you are REALLY interested in what we are talking about, you
will GO to a piano and do this -- I know, alot of you guys have no interest in pianos, and I'm not asking you to either, but I'm telling you, go to the nearest piano and try this, it will change your musical life:

Start with your left hand, and start building the chord as we've described above, starting at the bottom with a D note (Root), followed by the F (minor 3rd) and the A (5th).
Now, with your right hand, keep going-- play the C note (7th), E (9th), G (11th) and
B (13th). Play the whole chord a couple of time.... it's nice.
NOW, the interesting part. Take the notes you are playing with your left hand, (D,F,A) and move them up an octave-- you'll have to slip in under and between the fingers of your right hand... What do you see ??
Every White Key, from C all the way to B, is depressed !
Congratulations, you have just hit the Tip of the Iceberg of Charlie Parker's Revelation.

Remove your hands, then play
the scale, starting on D, all the way up the white keys. You have just discovered that the D-7 chord, extended in full, is derived from the C major scale. If you wished to play an 8-note scale over D-7, starting on D, you would just stick to the white keys... the C major scale. They represent the "pool of available notes" from which you can draw to improvise.
When you start on the second note of a major scale, and run up an octave, as we have in this example from D to D, it's called the "Dorian Mode". Don't let the name freak you out, it's not that important, unless you're trying to communicate it to someone else verbally as we are now.

The next most obvious example, using the C major scale, would be to run from G note up, all the
way up the white keys to the next G. You know this mode represents some sort of G chord. As you
go up the scale, you notice a B note.. so you know this G chord is major, because it has a major
third.... it also has an F note in it, which is the minor 7th of G. That's very important. It doesn't have a
major 7th (F#), but rather an F note. That makes it a dominant chord. This scale is the scale that G7
comes from.

The fact is, every chord is a scale, arranged in little piles. Virtually every sort of chord has a scale from
which it is drawn, and that scale represents possible notes to choose from.

Some classical students would shrug at this point in the conversation and say this was nothing new.... Well, stay tuned.
One of the several things the boppers did was start to employ the Melodic Minor scale and all it's different modes to enunciate particular sorts of chords.

So much for installment one. I thought I'd go ahead and post this now.... and hopefully in the next couple of days I can write up a sequel, showing all the modes of the major and melodic minor scales, and the chords they represent. Hopefully, with some tab.
-John

[This message was edited by John Steele on 02 February 2001 at 01:01 PM.]

posted 31 January 2001 01:48 PM         

From Paul Franklin's C6 speed picking course part 1 of many years ago:

The Dorian or second position would be 3 frets up from the open root. In this case that would be fret 3. (I am no theory expert. Just trying to apply what John just wrote).

C6 D on top, 3rd Fret (Dm7)

 S1---F
 S2---G
 S3---D<-Eb
 S4---C
 S5---A<-Bb
 S6---G
 S7---Eb->E
 S8---C
 S9---G<-G#
S10---C<-Eb

Lower string 3 with knee and a string 5 with B pedal. Pedal E would allow you to use strings 7 thru 10. Those notes before you engaged the pedals would be "chromatic connections."

Any other ideas?

[This message was edited by Frank Estes on 05 February 2001 at 09:58 AM.]

posted 31 January 2001 06:00 PM         

What's the name of the mode that runs on the V chord (G to G in your example)?.

I guess I finally understand what Parker meant saying that he hit the higher intervals of the line, I think. I've never really seen what the big deal was, because I always thought that he was referring to the notes in the major scale for the tonic chord, which any dixieland player would have used in a solo melody. Couldn't figure out why these would be 9ths and 13ths instead of 2nds and 6ths, but I see it now using your example with the Dorian mode.

Keep it coming indeed -- (I hope the topic name doesn't make members think this is a discussion of far eastern music or something, not that there's anything wrong with that...). Let's learn some more here!

[This message was edited by Dirk B on 31 January 2001 at 06:02 PM.]

posted 02 February 2001 08:22 AM         

John; okay, here's a question: what mode works with a III chord, such as the one that comes up repeatedly in "All of me"? I usually treat it as a key change and play the major scale of the III note, with a dominant 7th (e.g., if "All of me" is played in C, I would play an E scale when I get to the III chord and lean on the D note). But some of the major scale notes don't sound right. I'm ready to go out and copy some licks to get some ideas, but am curious to know how to approach it.

[This message was edited by Dirk B on 02 February 2001 at 08:24 AM.]

posted 02 February 2001 12:37 PM         

Here's the E9 versus the E7b9:

    C                  E9 (Yuk!!)E7
1----------|----12----|------------|
2----------|----------|------------|
3--12--7---|-12----12-|-11------4--|
4--12----7-|----------|-11---11-4R-|
5--12------|----------|-11------4--|
6--12----7-|----------|-11(6----4--|
7----------|----------|-11---------|
8----------|----------|------------|
9--------7-|----------|------------|
10---------|----------|------------|
try this instead:
   E7b9
1--------------|
2--------------|
3--11-------4--|
4--11----11-4R-|
5--11(5-----4--|
6--11(6-----4--|
7--11----------|
8--------------|
9--------------|
10-------------|

I listened to one of the most respected jazz/swing steelers we have, in a convention jam room make that very same mistake repeatedly, playing that very song. I shook my head, and recalled one forumite's comment about "not being accepted by the jazz snobs because they think we're hillbillies". Ha. Only if you play like one Apparently, your ears are not going to let you fall into that trap.
Jeff... another good question to clear up.
The term "b5" came up early in the bop era
to describe the habit of Bird, Monk, Bud, and Dizzy's, of putting, for instance, a B note in their F chords. As most people thought in terms of chords rather than scales in those days (what we're trying to overcome in this thread), they thought of it as the 5th tone flattened. The problem was, along with this note, the perfect fifth often appeared.. unflattened.
As chord-based thinking gradually gave way to scale thinking, they realized that it wasn't the b5th at all... It was actually the 4th tone sharpened ! (#4). It's generally thought of that way these days, althoug you still hear the old term "flat five" occasionally. The reason: Up to this point, the use of the 4th tone in improvised lines had to be handled carefully .... as a passing tone, because it's the "sensitive" or unstable note of the scale. Bird et al, they raised the 4th tone and used it with abandon. (e.g. A Night In Tunisia) That's likely why it was thought of as an altered 5th tone. Not anymore though.
Because 4 and 11 are the same tones in the scale, an octave apart, you see it written both ways, although I'd say #11 is more common, as it implies "everything up to #11" (i.e. 1,3,5,7,9,#11)
Who cares about 7#11 chords, you ask? Well, for openers, the intro from "Nightlife" was lifted directly from a Charlie Parker tune.. and the 4th chord is a 7#11 chord (usually played with pedal 6 & 7 on C6.. root on the ninth string.
You'll notice that b5 just wouldn't do in describing this chord, because the 5 is not flat.. it's quite intact, on the 7th string:

  F7#11
1------|
2------|
3--0(7-|
4--0(7-|
5--0---|
6--0(6-|
7--0---|
8--0---|
9--0---|

posted 02 February 2001 01:28 PM         

quote:

---

What is the difference between b5
and #11, or #5 and b13? The location in the voicing?

---

posted 03 February 2001 02:28 AM         

quote:

---

The Dorian or second position would be 3 frets up from the open root. In this case that would be fret 3. (I am no theory expert. Just trying to apply what John just wrote).

---

I don't quite get this. Normally, the 'natural' position for the dorian mode would be two frets down from the pedals off root. For example, on the E9th tuning, to play a F# Dorian scale, you would use the same notes as in an E major scale, except starting and ending on the F# note.

posted 03 February 2001 08:58 AM         

Rich Gibson

posted 05 March 2001 01:40 PM         

A Csus, because it doesn't have an E in it, isn't really a C chord, because it doesn't have a B, it isn't a G chord. It's more like a neutral chord, like 4th structures, it could resolve to C or G or some where else.

A b5, implies that it is a V7 chord and it resolves down to the root of the I, Db->C. A #5 resolves up to the 3rd, D#->E. A b5 or #5 chord is more powerful because 3 notes are leading.

A #11 implies Lydian mode which is a major scale mode, thus major 7th chords would have a #11, while minor 7th chords would have a natural 11. Chords with 11s in them imply that there's a 5 in the structure.
I think of V7 chords as going somewhere and I chords as a destination.

[This message was edited by chas smith on 05 March 2001 at 01:42 PM.]

posted 05 March 2001 02:56 PM         

I noticed one day sitting at the piano and "noodling" (no, I don't do keyboards) that if you play a "C" chord (C-E-G), and then add a "B" note (to make a maj.7th), that all of a sudden none of the black keys fit...or sound good when you add them to the chord.

Also, if you play a Cmaj.7th, and then add a "D" note...an octave above or below, it sounds good. But if you add the "D" that's in between the first and third, it doesn't sound as "pleasing". It's the same NOTE, but obviously other things are going on here.

posted 05 March 2001 04:38 PM         

also, the 15th is another C, the 19th is a G, the 21st is a B and the 23rd is a D.

C Maj7 9 #11, 13 pretty much covers the scale

[This message was edited by chas smith on 05 March 2001 at 04:38 PM.]

posted 06 March 2001 01:03 PM         

That's a new one on me. I thought that there was something in the very definition "suspended fourth" that indicated the third was gone, at least temporarily. I guess I would've thought the chord you're describing with both the third and fourth would likely be referred to as Major 11th.

What is the correct definition for the term "suspended" then? The Sus 2 chords I've seen don't have thirds either.

Jeff

[This message was edited by Jeff A. Smith on 06 March 2001 at 01:06 PM.]

posted 06 March 2001 02:56 PM         

I disagree that sus chords can have 3rds in them, if only for academic reasons.

The two notes in the chord that define the chord are the 3rd and 7th, that is whether it's major, minor or dominant.

Since the chord only needs the 3rd and 7th and we have more fingers to work with, we can add 'color notes' and 'upper structures', 9ths, 11ths 13ths and so on. I don't mean for this to sound patronizing.

As an aside, this is why substitute chords work. Dominants a tritone apart substitute for each other because, for example, the 3rd and 7th of C7, E and Bb respectively are also the 7th and 3rd of F#7(Gb7).

C maj7 and A-7 substitute for each other again because C and G are the 3rd and 7th of A-7, and they share other notes.

For that matter, you can look at A-7b5 as an F7,9 because of the A and Eb.

Diminished chords need the b5 to go with the b3 and bb7.

So if a Sus chord, that is a chord with a suspended 3rd, has a 3rd in it, it's no longer a sus chord. I think it's a chord with an 11th. -CS-

[This message was edited by chas smith on 06 March 2001 at 02:58 PM.]

posted 06 March 2001 03:56 PM         

First, thank you for sharing your time and talent! I very much appreciate learning from someone with your obvious level of knowledge.

I didn't realize you were talking about Chas.'s references to Dom. 7th chords a little further up, when I suggested MAJOR 11th. That WOULD be experimental, wouldn't it? I do have some reference chord manuals that use the terms Dom.11th, or Dom.7th add 4 for what you are describing, provided we don't stick strictly to original piano theory that puts the extensions in the upper octave.

Those chords do sound nice. I'm nitpicking I guess, but the term "suspended", to me should have some exact meaning. For the kind of chords we're discussing, I think there should be a good reason for not using the term "11th", which is more logically consistent (to me anyway), before we perhaps unnecessarily muddy the meaning of a term. But I don't want to hold you up here, either.

posted 06 March 2001 06:01 PM         

quote:

---

if a Sus chord, that is a chord with a suspended 3rd,

---

posted 07 March 2001 08:08 AM         

The fourth or second is "suspended"
because it's usually held over from another chord. It's sort of suspended in space - it sounds like it wants to go somewhere and change with the rest of the chord. In classical voice leading a c, for instance, might be held over when changing from a C chord to a G chord (c is four notes above the root in a G chord), and then that note will resolve to a b. Spend any time as a tenor in a church choir and you'll feel you've spent your life suspending and resolving fourths.

[This message was edited by John Kavanagh on 07 March 2001 at 09:41 AM.]

posted 07 March 2001 09:39 AM         

PENTATONIC SCALES AND CHROMATIC PASSING TONES

I've lately had the opportunity to teach upright bass to a few young students. Some of them were fairly capable bass guitar players who had been bitten by the jazz bug and wanted me to help them play like Ray Brown. (Like I haven't spent almost thirty years trying to sound like Ray Brown.) Walking bass lines are just simple solos seen from underneath, right? So some of the same ideas might work for soloists.

I can play a pretty fair walking bass under even weird chord changes, and I had to try and describe how I was doing it in a way that might save these kids some time. For what it's worth, my magical conceptual formula was: pentatonic scales and chromatic passing tones.

Not that knowing all the modes and lydian chromatic theory isn't interesting and useful, but I was trying to simplify it without losing any possibilities, both for the sake of my own tiny brain and to make it manageable for my students. The cheater's shortcut for me boiled down to this single light-bulb-over-the-head concept: pentatonic scales and chromatic passing tones.

So a triad is 1 3 5 in whatever your scale is, right? and a dominant chord is 1357, based on a mixolydian scale, right? Or a major chord plus a flat seventh, if you like. Add the ninth and you get the outline of a pentatonic scale. 1 3 5 7 9 is the same notes as the pentatonic scale omitting the fourth and sixth, and 123578. I decided to stop there, since the number of possible scales/chords gets dizzying when you add 11ths and 13ths. And bass players are easily intimidated

I got the kids to think of every chord as being either a tonic-style chord (I: a C chord in the key of C), a subdominant-style chord (ii =Dm or IV = F), or a dominant style chord (V= G or viiš B diminished).

I told them that you could generally use major sevenths or sixths with tonic chords, and that, with the ninth, would be the 123568 or 123578 major penta scale. The subdominant chords are based on either the same scale a fourth higher (for F) or on a minor penta scale 123578 (for Dm7).

The dominant style chords are based on the mixolydian or blues penta scale: 123578 with a flat seven. They're usually seventh or ninth chords.

No matter how many chords you have, they're almost always going to be one of those three styles of chord, depending on their function.
A dominant-style chord doesn't have to be on the fifth degree of the scale, but it usually implies a local key change and resolves to a tonic-style chord.

(An example of a style hint I gave them: to sound bluesy, treat everything like a dominant chord. The more Subdominants you use, the jazzier it sounds.)

Once they had learned that, I explained away the 11ths, 13ths, alterations, everything else in terms of chromatic passing tones. This was good for them as bass players, because you know how dangerous it can be to put too much information in a bass player's head.

All those b9s and #11s and so on can be heard as chromatic passing tones, and the GREAT thing about thinking about them that way is that you always have it in mind that that fancy note has a melodic thing happening to it; it wants to GO somewhere. Usually a flatted interval goes down to a chord tone of the next chord, and a sharped one goes up: a flat five goes down, a sharp eleventh goes up, a flat seventh goes down, a sharp thirteenth goes up... and so on.

I told them that if they thought about the NEXT chord framework ( = pentatonic scale) they were going to play, and played a chromatic passing tone to one of those notes, they would probably have happened on a hip sounding jazz change that would deceive listeners into thinking that they were a master of substitutions and chroamatic harmony. Well, you can fool all of the people some of the time.

So in All of Me, I'd tell them that that second chord would be an E7b9 because you're still in C major and the f# of a full E9 chord will sound out of place, but also because that f natural makes a nice melodic slide down to the e root, or to e as the fifth of the next chord, A7. You can avoid having to decide on the fly whether the appropriate mode is an altered mixolydian or an altered Phyrigian or the plagal version of a harmonic minor or whatever, and just think of it as a dominant chord with a cool money note in it.

Your thinking about scale possibilities are kept manageable because you keep thinking in a pentatonic framework, which is how a lot of us learned to improvise, and the extra notes are melodic notes that get stuck into your line or even into your chord because of something that's happening to the melody or in some harmony part that only you can hear..

This seemd a lot simpler before I tried to write it down. But it works for me, and the kids dug it too, I swear... some of them anyway.

------------------
John Kavanagh
D-8, acoustic 8

[This message was edited by John Kavanagh on 07 March 2001 at 10:06 AM.]

posted 07 March 2001 12:15 PM         

II-V, VI-II-V, III-VI-II-V progressions are all about going somewhere, in fact they're really V-V-V-V progressions, E is the 5th of A is the 5th of D is the 5th of G and so on, cycle 5. The point being, dominant->tonic is transition->rest, tension/release, inhale/exhale.

You may want to think of the 'sus chords' that McCoy Tyner plays, not as sus chords, but as 4th structures, neutral structures. Sus chords, because of their II-V nature, are rooted in diatonic harmony with all of the rules and expectations it implies. Neutral structures don't carry this baggage and because they are not grounded in traditional harmony are less restrictive and more open to other possibilities. I get calls to play on things that have to "hover" over a period of time, those will typically have 'chord fragments' or 'scale fragments' (another way of saying a limited number of notes available) to work with.

The fact that there may be 3rds in some of the '4th chords' is getting caught up in the details, if you look at the overall structure, it could be two 3-note 4th chords a 3rd apart such as A D G/B E A. I'm not saying that it's not important to look at what's in it, but I think it's more important to see what it's doing.

posted 07 March 2001 12:27 PM         

What is the thinking on chord tone resolutions of greater than a half step?

Also, do these principles differ when we're moving between non-dominant chords in a progression?

[This message was edited by Jeff A. Smith on 07 March 2001 at 12:29 PM.]