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Servo Changer? (Page 2)
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The Steel Guitar Forum
Pedal Steel Archive
Servo Changer? (Page 2)
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| This topic is 2 pages long: 1 2 This topic was originally posted in this forum: Pedal Steel |
| Author | Topic: Servo Changer? |
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ToneJunkie Member Posts: 245 |
posted 24 August 2000 02:34 PM
I've given a little thought to a motor-driven changer. And although I don't understand all the physics and limitations of the physical devices (motors, servos, et al) available today, it occurred to me that such an implementation would be an ideal solution to the problem of correct guitar height. If the sensors and transmitters were located at the pedals in the pedal array, there would be no need for a physical connection between the pedals and the bell cranks. The elimination of the pedal rods would provide for unrestricted adjustments to the height and angle of the guitar. No longer would players be swapping out pedal rods or sawing off legs to accomodate changes to the height of the guitar. I also thought that players might loose the feel of the pedal with a motor-driven changer. But I think the feel of a conventional pedal could be fairly accurately modelled with springs. I'm wondering if the rotational speed of available devices could track typical foot movement well? Others here would probably know that or if available devices have sufficient torque. Cool thread. If this becomes a SGF community project, count me in for software, AutoCAD, or research. Cheers all ------------------ |
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Donny Hinson Member Posts: 9192 |
posted 24 August 2000 05:59 PM
My own opinion is that this could be done mechanically. I can envision a steel with push button presets for each pedal. Simply put it in "neutral", push a pedal, and then push a button for the desired changes. You'd have to tune all the changes the first time, like we do now, but when you went back to that change, it would still be in tune. Mind you, all this "mechanics" I'm talking about would use the same changer we're using now. It would only replace the present crossrod-bellcrank-pullrod system we have been using for 45 years. I think there's a lot of mechanical innovations that have yet to be made on our instrument. I'm not against the "electrical approach", I just think that to be cheap, small, and reliable, it's another decade or so away. |
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seldomfed Member Posts: 637 |
posted 25 August 2000 05:01 PM
http://www.selftuning.com/index1.html Try this link to the Transperformance guitar ------------------ |
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J D Sauser Member Posts: 1240 |
posted 26 August 2000 06:40 AM
My question to all what's been said so far, would be "WHY?". It's not that I am against new technologies or find anything like that not worth the while pursuing but there are plenty of guitars around that have a pretty easy action. So what are you trying to accomplish? Now, for pursuing the idea of multi tuning/set-up capability at the touch of a button... I think a better way would be to take ALL of the mechanical aspects out of the instrument for good and make the PSG a synthesized instrument (an electronic instrument). I know, it sounds ugly and believe me when I say that I hate the thought of it but: The strings would be all of the same gauge, probably some synthetic material and all strung at the same tension (no tuning) and lead into a sensor which basically just senses which string has been plucked and a which intensity (like the "dynamic-touch" keys of a digital piano with ). The bar placement is read magnetically and the resulting (calculated) pitch is produced from a digital tonebank. Pedals and knee levers are digital pitch shifters, all with the same (setable) travel and counter force and stop feel for any number and length of pull. Tuning(s) are pre-programmable (factory and user) and so are the pedal/lever set-up's (what each pedal or lever does). Different temperaments can also be dialed at the touch of a button. You now can seamlessly "surf" tunings and set-ups while playing. Tone is not an issue anymore (which would help free up space on this Forum  ), as you can freely choose between Buddy Emmons', Jimmy Day's, Jerry Byrd's and who ever's tone, they're all pre loaded in your little instrument.No more body drop, light weight and IF 500000 people buy it, available at any Toys 'R' Us for $399.98. YOUR GRAND KIDS WILL LOVE IT! I may seem to be joking but at the risk of you all calling me an idiot, I'd say I'm not. ------------------ |
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Bobby Lee Sysop Posts: 14849 |
posted 26 August 2000 11:20 AM
I just love the sound of real steel guitar strings, J D. The subtleties of steel guitar technique would be totally lost in a digital instument. How would you sense and respond to a different angle of attack, or the different tones that you get when you strike the sting at a different place. How would you handle harmonics? No, the idea here is simply to offer a very wide variety of tunable pedals and levers from one very comfortable sitting position. I wouldn't want to change the very nature of the instrument, but it seems to me that the mechanism used to pull strings could stand some improvement. ------------------ |
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Rick Collins Member Posts: 3286 |
posted 26 August 2000 02:43 PM
Where the mechanics under the guitar are concerned, I would like some of the current custom makers to take a step backwards. I would like to see an all new cable system, like the old Fender systems. The cables Fender used were automotive,____too big and bulky. I know, I replaced one on my 1000. An auto emergency brake cable was a perfect match. Light aircraft control cables are half the size in diameter and stronger. They also will travel around a smaller pulley, (less bulky). A new cable system like this, with newly designed bellcranks, and other newly designed precision parts would cut a little weight and maybe pave a way for pedals and levers to have dual functions. Rick |
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Gary Walker Member Posts: 1446 |
posted 03 November 2000 08:58 PM
Hey guys, let me put my Lincoln coin's worth. Chalker expressed a servo operated system years ago when he wanted to make those fast chord change and Emmons had talked about and electronic changing system. With today's pitchshifter and isolated pickups and midi controls, what would be the big deal about pedal and lever pots to make the changes at the touch of a button. Strings would never break and one neck would fit an endless array of tunings left up only to the imagination of the picker. Any techies feel the urge? Thanks, Gary |
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Marco Schouten Member Posts: 920 |
posted 04 November 2000 02:51 AM
Just leave it like it is. ------------------ |
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Donny Hinson Member Posts: 9192 |
posted 04 November 2000 03:32 AM
I'm not a "technophobe", but some things mechanical are probably best left that way. While I can plainly see the advances that solid state electronics has brought about in some mechanical devices (the new programmable sewing machines come to mind) the problem is that technology sometimes moves too fast, and becomes obsolete too soon. By this I mean that, while it may be possible to build such a contraption as an "electronically programmable, servo-operated pedal steel guitar", what would be the longevity of the thing? At least the mechanical parts in a regular PSG can all be made by a competent machinist. But when you're dealing with electronics, it's a commodity that uses parts that can only be duplicated with high-priced, sophisticated techniques. Servos and IC's which are available today may not be made 10 years from now. We see a similar problem today with transformers and tubes, and these are devices that were made by the MILLIONS. Some are getting very scarce already. When repair parts are no longer available, the practicality of owning and regularly using "old electronic technology" (which may only be 20 years old) gets to be quite a hassle. |
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Bill Stafford Member Posts: 1347 |
posted 04 November 2000 05:27 AM
All the "electronic" ideas are workable and even more so in this computer day and age. BUT, in my opinion, music played with feelings, hearts and souls can ONLY come from the artist's hands as HE manipulates the strings according to his heart's desires.All of the aforementioned ideas will probably come to pass eventually but the truest music will come from human contact and control of the melody. All the "sampled" computer played music has the real sounds but not the feel of the particular artist. This technology is great but it will never replace the real feeling of the musicians. Thanks for this opportunity. Bill Stafford |
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Harold Parris Member Posts: 261 |
posted 06 November 2000 06:16 AM
The pedal steel guitar is a "soul Instrument". The soul movement of the body connected to the pedals, knee levers, picks, volume pedal, and bar are what make steel players good, better, and the best. It is my opinion that there is no electrical, pneumatic, or hydraulic mechanism that refined at this point, to duplicate the human movement. It would be very easy to make a changer that would take full swings in movement but that graceful movement of the human being can't be duplicated at this time. Maybe in the future technology will advance to that point. ------------------ |
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Randy Pettit Member Posts: 323 |
posted 06 November 2000 09:12 AM
I believe JD is really on to something. Perhaps the best way to improve the mechanics would be to eliminate them entirely with a touch-sensitive picking area near the "bridge", as well as a touch- sensitive fretting area. The only mechanics involved would be the travel of the pedals and knee levers themselves. Imagine the ability to digitally program virtually any tuning, number of strings, tone, etc... You still move the bar and pick the "strings", or whatever material would be suitable. It doesn't seem that far-fetched. |
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Johan Jansen Member Posts: 2207 |
posted 06 November 2000 09:35 AM
To me, every electronic device on an instrument, that takes the place of a mechanic thing on the instrument, makes the body-feel, the human factor less. The reason I play pedal-steel is that the sound is so close to the soul of the player, that even every trembling in the players body can be heard trough his playing, every emotion. The shorter the way, the more emotion. Electronics have no emotion.(dot!) But oh, you are trying to build a new kind of music-instrument? Go ahead, but please, don't call it a pedal steel! Good luck with your mission, Johan ------------------ STEELDAYS 2000 [This message was edited by Johan Jansen on 06 November 2000 at 09:38 AM.] |
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Bobby Lee Sysop Posts: 14849 |
posted 06 November 2000 11:43 AM
Early pedal steels had a one-piece finger in the changer. The "feel" of those guitars is very direct - you pull the string and the string pulls back until the finger hits the body of the guitar to stop it. Next we add a spring to do lowers (early push-pull). The pedal pushes the finger, but we are pushing against a spring instead of the tension of the musical string itself. Does this take away from the "feel" of the instrument? Did the use of a spring remove some of the "soul" of the steel guitar? I don't think so. Fast forward to the modern all-pull era. The guitars being made today are marvels of complexity, with joints in the fingers, counterforce adjustments, compensators and helper springs. The direct connection between your legs and the strings is mediated by a variety of options, each affecting the leverage and "feel" of the instrument in some way. It's true that a servo changer would break that direct mechanical link. Resistance for each pedal or lever would be provided by a single adjustable spring instead of by a complex leverage system. But if the electronic system between the pedal and changer had sufficient resolution, I think it could "feel" at least as good as a modern all-pull guitar. Getting it to feel like my old Marlen push-pull, well, that's another story. ------------------ [This message was edited by Bobby Lee on 06 November 2000 at 11:48 AM.] |
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Randy Pettit Member Posts: 323 |
posted 06 November 2000 02:21 PM
I'm not necessarily advocating the development of a "digi-steel" type of electronic instrument. But it just seems like a natural progression over time. Like the typewriter to the personal computer, the Model T to the Mercedes, and so on. Nor am I suggesting that players would change in droves from the current mechanical technology to something radically different. Look how much the steel guitar has changed in the past 50 years. We're already digitizing the sound to a certain extent at the amp end of our instrument. Can you imagine in a "Back To The Future" setting, walking up to Bob Dunn in the 1930s as he's magnetizing his strings before a gig, and setting a brand new 2000 model Carter down in front of him? I doubt he would even know what to call it (I guess he'd just call it a Carter). Conversely, look at the strong demand (and prices) for old non-pedal, lap steels and dobros. Regardless of how the PSG progresses, there will always be some players (and listeners) who like the sound and feel of the older instruments. In terms of soulful expression, nothing will ever top the human voice. |
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Earnest Bovine Member Posts: 4687 |
posted 06 November 2000 06:41 PM
They can put feel into the yoke of a Boeing 777, just like on a Cessna 172 where they use Fender 1000 parts between the yoke and the control surfaces. So I guess they can do it on a new pedal steel, as long as we have Boeing's budget. |
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Dave Van Allen Member Posts: 5369 |
posted 07 November 2000 08:22 AM
quote: why, yes, I can imagine that....
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