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This topic was originally posted in this forum: Pedal Steel
Author Topic:   Parallax corrected frets
Peter Henningsen
Member

Posts: 6
From: Aalborg, Denmark
Registered: APR 2000

posted 21 August 2000 11:25 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Peter Henningsen     
I am building my first lap steel from scratch. I have made a spreadsheet for calculation of parallax corrected fret positions, which I will use instead of 'normal' frets. Perhaps someone else will find it usefull. To give it a try will cost no more than a piece of paper.
The spreadsheet can be downloaded here:

Click here

Comments and suggestions are welcome.

Peter Henningsen, Denmark
peterh@mail1.stofanet.dk


Dave Van Allen
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From: Doylestown, PA , US , Earth
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posted 22 August 2000 05:56 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Dave Van Allen     
Peter:
1.please explain why you think this is necessary

2.What are your variables L and D?

do they represent the distance from your eyes to the fretboard?

3. it seems "parallax correction" would vary from moment to moment unless your head was in traction and your guitar was bolted to the same frame...



Bob Kagy
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Posts: 872
From: Lafayette, CO USA
Registered: AUG 98

posted 22 August 2000 11:02 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Bob Kagy     
Maybe I'm missing something also. Which eye is dominant also is a variable.

No disrespect intended Peter, and I could be way off, but it seems like it would be better to learn to deal with the parallax. After all, we do it driving a car, swinging a club, a racquet, catching a ball, and on and on.

rayman
unregistered

Posts: 872
From: Lafayette, CO USA
Registered: AUG 98

posted 22 August 2000 09:01 PM           
I'm sorry but this is really stupid. If you have to rely more on you eyes than your ears to intonate, then you simply can't play, period. You need to go to the convention in St. Louis and see players play without breaking a note when Scottie walks up behind them and puts a jacket over their head in the middle of a sixteenth note ride. Your missing it man!


Steelruss
unregistered

Posts: 872
From: Lafayette, CO USA
Registered: AUG 98

posted 23 August 2000 01:21 AM           
Back around the turn of the '80's the late Don Buzzard was tryin' to sell 'visually adjusted' fretboards - same idea. I don't think it went over too well.
rayman, that is Speedy, not Scotty, that you're referring to.
~Russ


Dave Van Allen
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From: Doylestown, PA , US , Earth
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posted 23 August 2000 06:22 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Dave Van Allen     
rayman:

lighten up, fella.

it's not "stupid", just an oblique approach to a known issue. Perhaps ill-advised, but he put a lot of thought into it.

you wanna pay his airfare from Denmark so he can get to ISGC?


Bill Crook
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Posts: 1820
From: Goodlettsville, TN , Spending my kid's inheritance
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posted 23 August 2000 06:29 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Bill Crook     
Thank you, D.V.A.




Peter Henningsen
Member

Posts: 6
From: Aalborg, Denmark
Registered: APR 2000

posted 23 August 2000 08:41 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Peter Henningsen     
Thanks for the comments. First I would like to state that I have absolutely no intensions of persuading someone to give up their normal fretboards, and I don't think I will be persuaded to give up my parallax corrected frets.

Dave Van Allen:

1. If we assume that some kind of visual indications are necessary along the fretboard, why not place these where they give the most precise indication? On the normal fretboard the player has to apply a different visual correction for every fret (the bar placed 'behind' the fret, 'on' the fret,'in front of' the fret). I am an engineer by profession, and I think from an engineering standpoint the normal positions of the frets simply don't make as much sense as parallax corrected fret positions.

2. The L variable is the free vibrating length of the open strings or scalelength (for example 24.25", 616 mm). The D variable is the diameter of the bar (for example 1", 25.4 mm). The distance from the eye to the
strings is the variable A. Please note that the spreadsheet has two 'worksheets', the first one contains a graphical representation of the variables.

3. You are absolutely right, but that is not different from the situation with a normal fretboard. It helps to have a small distance between fretboard to strings. On my steel this distance is about 8 mm (5/16").


Bob Kagy:

You are right, which eye is dominant is a variable. But if you know which one it is, the variable B can be properly entered. I have made possible to enter B for every fret, to take account of the turning of the head (if the players head position changes between playing on the low frets and the high
frets) or which eye is dominant.

I am curious what you mean by 'better' in your comment. I think I will make faster progress in my steel playing with parallax corrected frets, but you could be right if I someday got my hands on a dobro or steel guitar with normal frets. Then I would perhaps be handicapped. But I will then take a few measurements, fire my portable computer and printer, print an overlay with parallax corrected fret positions, stick it on with masking tape ..... ;-)


rayman:
You are also right - I can't play that instrument (lap steel) yet, I'm an absolute beginner. Among other instruments I play fiddle, with no visual indications on the fretboard at all, and I think I have a good ear. I am convinced that if I had the time to spend I would also be able to play steel
blindfold. But that will not be a goal for me. I don't know what you think I am missing, but it is surely not the joy of making sounds with 12 strings, a bar of solid brass, slants, slides, a G-Force guitar effects processor, ...
and a piece of paper with parallax corrected fret positions ;-)

Steelruss:
Perhaps the failure of the 'visually adjusted ' fretboards was due to the
fact that there was a price tag on it. Now it can be tried for free (well
almost free: 15 minutes, a piece of paper and a few pieces of tape)


Peter Henningsen


Bobby Lee
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Posts: 14849
From: Cloverdale, North California, USA
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posted 23 August 2000 08:56 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Bobby Lee     
I always assume that the position directly over the fret is "in tune" with equal temperament. If I am having intonation problems on a guitar, I sometimes lean to one side or the other to get a better view.

I think that with a "parallax corrected" fretboard, I would never be sure. Is my head in the right position? Is my chair the right height? Is my nose directly on line with the 15th fret? If any of those variables change, I wouldn't know how to adjust because I have no frame of reference.

I recently discovered that I was playing consistently sharp on the low frets of my 25" scale Sierra Session. I had moved some knee levers to the right and changed my sitting position. Using the method described above, I positioned the bar directly over each fret and re-trained my visual memory of where the bar should be when playing on those low frets. If the fretboard had been "parallax corrected", I would have had to order a new fretboard!

Peter, I applaud your energy and initiative in in developing this solution, but I think that the human brain is better equipped to deal with parallax than a computer program. God gave us two eyes and a strong intuitive sense of the 3-dimensional world. It's really not all that hard to position the bar correctly over an equally-tempered fretboard, in my opinion, and you have to do it anyway if you're going to play more than one steel guitar.

------------------
Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
Sierra Session S-12 (E9), Speedy West D-10 (E9, D6),
Sierra 8 Laptop (D13), Fender Stringmaster D-8 (D13, A6)


Martin Abend
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Posts: 878
From:
Registered: MAR 99

posted 23 August 2000 11:06 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Martin Abend     
I remember a Bass-guitar builder from Canada who built high-end guitars with "fanned frets" at the beginning of the 90ies (I can't remember his name, though).
He did this to have the possibility to use a longer scale for the lower strings and a shorter for the higher strings where a longer scale isn't needed. I never played such an Instrument but they vanished quickly.

I guess PSGs with no fret-linings at all would be quite a challenge

I don't see any advantages by your project, Peter, but keep hangin' on! Without people who question standarized things, where would we be? Maybe it turns out to be very helpful to you.

------------------
martin abend martinabend@yahoo.com
s-10 sierra crown gearless 3 x4 - fender hotrod deluxe



Tommy Mc
Member

Posts: 190
From: Middlesex VT
Registered: FEB 2000

posted 23 August 2000 04:16 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Tommy Mc     
Peter:
Your idea is interesting, but all the objections to it have validity. It occurs to me that instead of 'correcting' for parallax, you should work on 'eliminating' it. Here is my idea:
THE EL-CHEAPO PARALLAX ELIMINATOR KIT.
Contents: (1) Fret stencil (specify scale)
(2) Spray paint (specify color)
(3) Newspaper and masking tape

Instructions:
Carefully mask off the body of the guitar. Lay fret stencil on strings, spray on frets.

Really though, maybe there is a way to project an image of frets onto the strings, perhaps with hologram technology or something. You're the engineer..........


rayman
unregistered

Posts: 190
From: Middlesex VT
Registered: FEB 2000

posted 23 August 2000 05:02 PM           
Bravo Tommy.


Bobby Lee
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From: Cloverdale, North California, USA
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posted 23 August 2000 06:08 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Bobby Lee     
Yes! If the frets could be projected on the same plane as the strings, that would be really cool!


Donny Hinson
Member

Posts: 9192
From: Balto., Md. U.S.A.
Registered: FEB 99

posted 23 August 2000 06:27 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Donny Hinson     
Well, it's an idea. Not everyone might like it, but I have heard several beginners with the same complaint. Actually, Tommy Mc's idea came to me too, only in the form of laser diodes firing up from the fretboard. If they were mounted slightly ahead of the frets, and aimed back at an angle, they could probably be seen in bright sunlight! But then, you'd have to have diodes to project the fret markers too...nevermind.

Enough "freewheeling"...now back to reality.

(Actually, I once had this idea for a curved piano keyboard, where all the keys would be equidistant from the player's bellybutton...they laughed at that one too!) ;0

"Dreamers constantly suffer ridicule and scorn. And often, their only reward is a glimpse into the future!"

Pete Burak
Member

Posts: 2750
From: Portland, OR USA
Registered: OCT 98

posted 23 August 2000 06:53 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Pete Burak     
Mirrors have been used to eliminate parralx on multi-meters. That gave me an idea that I havn't implemented yet, so I have no trial and error data on this idea, but... If you had a mirror that was about an inch or two high and the length of your fretboard, you could attach it to the front of your steel. When you are sitting at your steel you can see the reflection of both the fret and the bar in the mirror. Not as cool as projecting the frets onto the strings, but I think it would allow you to quickly check bar placement if something sounds a little off, or for general hand/eye/muscle-memory training. Once you have the mirror set up, add "smoke" to taste.


Dave Van Allen
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posted 23 August 2000 06:54 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Dave Van Allen     
quote:
"Dreamers constantly suffer ridicule and scorn. And often, their only reward is a glimpse into the future!"

great quote Donny- what's the source?

ebb
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From: nj
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posted 23 August 2000 08:14 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ebb     
Emmons solved this problem long ago. Play with a bag over your head.


Donny Hinson
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Posts: 9192
From: Balto., Md. U.S.A.
Registered: FEB 99

posted 24 August 2000 05:22 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Donny Hinson     
DVA...thanks for the "flowers"!

(Actually, that quote is one of my own.)

Clarence E Wilson
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Posts: 138
From: morgantown wv usa
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posted 25 August 2000 07:33 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Clarence E  Wilson     
along about 74, I bought a d10 from Excel.
It had a fretboard which was supposed to take
a stab at the problem. If you have seen Mitsu Fugii, you know how tall he is. This may have worked for him, but not for me. I sit and look down at the strings. Frets 1-2-3, etc were about a 1/4 in off pitch if you, like B0B, centered the bar directly over them. I played it for many years, traded it for a Bass amp. My wife ran across it last Sat. and a guy was playing it in a band. He
told her He liked the soung of it. So, there!!
CEW


Lynn Kasdorf
Member

Posts: 185
From: Leesburg, Virginia, USA
Registered: AUG 98

posted 25 August 2000 01:28 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Lynn Kasdorf     
A very useful exercise is to try playing in complete darkness. If you have been playing a while, it is not as hard as you might think.

The bottom line is that, as was mentioned before, you land on the correct location because of muscle memory and your ear. The visual fretboard is just a guideline. I think a parallax corrected fretboard would be really inferior because there would be no "truth", unless your head was aligned properly.

As fun as technical experiments like this are, I suspect you will reap far greater rewards by simply practicing!

Now, on to my pet peeve. How come emmons fretboards end where they do? Many times, i'll want to play harmonics with the bar above the 15th fret, and I find the lack of any fret markers a limitation.

------------------
"You call that thing a guitar?"


Steve Feldman
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Posts: 2983
From: Millbury, MA USA
Registered: DEC 99

posted 28 August 2000 06:56 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Steve Feldman     
Here's something simple: Go to a smaller diameter bar. Makes a big difference to me if I switch from a 1" to a 7/8" bar.


Henning Kock
Member

Posts: 326
From: Odder, DK-8300, Denmark, Europe
Registered: SEP 98

posted 30 August 2000 01:01 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Henning Kock     
August 30, 2000
Hello Peter,
Nice to see that a new Steel Player has popped up here in Denmark.
I you have time come down to the Aarhus area some day and see all my pedal steel guitars and stuff.
All the best
Henning Kock
Aarhusvej 111
DK-8300 Odder
phone 8654 2959
e-mail: henningkmusic@hotmail.com
web-page: geocities.com/nashville/1520

------------------


Randy Reimer
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Posts: 876
From: Ardrossan, AB
Registered:

posted 03 September 2000 09:11 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Randy Reimer     
I never acheived accuracy until I started recording for a friend's demo tape. Since I had about a month to lay the steel tracks, I had time to be critical. I only learned accuracy by listening and learning to play with the other tracks.

As a side note, often I can be out of tune from the piano, etc, by a quarter note or more - but when your ear catchs it and you simply move your "benchmark" to one side of the fret or other.

IMHO

Randy Reimer
Member

Posts: 876
From: Ardrossan, AB
Registered:

posted 03 September 2000 09:11 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Randy Reimer     
I never acheived accuracy until I started recording for a friend's demo tape. Since I had about a month to lay the steel tracks, I had time to be critical. I only learned accuracy by listening and learning to play with the other tracks.

As a side note, often I can be out of tune from the piano, etc, by a quarter note or more - but your ear catchs it and you simply move your "benchmark" to one side of the fret or other.

IMHO

John Borchard
Member

Posts: 224
From: Athens, OH 45701
Registered: SEP 99

posted 08 September 2000 08:54 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for John Borchard     
Tommy Mc, your idea is very interesting. I play an old ZB Custom that has white fingerboards with black fret markers. I've noticed from time to time that in some lighting conditions (generally bright light directly on the steel with very little ambient light) the "frets" are reflected onto the strings. I must admit, I never considered using them, but something to think about.

JB

[This message was edited by John Borchard on 08 September 2000 at 08:55 AM.]



Moon in Alaska
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Posts: 1155
From: Kasilof, Alaska **** way up NORTH TO ALASKA
Registered: DEC 99

posted 09 September 2000 12:03 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moon in Alaska     
Peter, As you can see from all these replies, most players don't use the fret marks except to get in the general vicinity of the spot. If you just sit down and start learning to play,shortly you will discover this for yourself. Also, I can't even see the fret marks above the 15th fret when the bar is present, but I can see where I am going next !! Good luck and keep on keeping on !!

------------------
<< Moon Mullin in Alaska >>
==Carter S-10==
<< Old Fender-400 >>
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Click HERE for Moon's Home Page




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