posted 26 October 1999 08:04 AM         

I can tune by ear all day long at home with no problem and it sounds fine, but I can't compete with the Mega-sound systems in clubs. A tuner and some type of tuning system ( I use a "modified to fit my guitar" version of Newman's chart) are necessary parts of the arsenal to me. Rod

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Rod's Place www.geocities.com/vibrasonic9/index.html

posted 26 October 1999 08:30 AM         

I'm there with you. I play with piano's and rhythm guitar's and have decided over the years to tune pretty much equal temperament straight up to the reference A=440. These instruments tune to that standard and their thirds and sixths are also referenced to A=440. The reference (center) octave of an acoustic piano is tuned straight up to A=440. After that, the octaves are stretched to take into account the inharmonic physical limitations (diameter and length tend to play heck with the upper harmonics) of the strings. Each notes octave is tuned beatless as you work up and down. This does result in the upper notes being slightly sharp of A=440 and the lower notes slightly flat. Good tuners will then compensate certain test intervals to take into account the individual instruments variations. Unless the octaves are stretched, you will end up with beats between the octave notes. In a band setting, most piano playing is done within the center A=440 temperament octave part of the keyboard.

Electronic keyboards are pitched to the A=440 reference and are not stretched. The highest or lowest octave is a integer multiple of the lower octaves and is dead on to the A=440 reference.

Ideally, guitar players tune their open strings to the A=440 reference. The exceptions are those players (?) that attempt to sweeten their first position chords. Since the frets are placed in accordance with equal temperament (reference A=440 spacing), this results in them being out of tune all night on any thing but that particular chord combination.

Choosing to sharpen your root E with an equal temperament tuning is really a function of how much cabinet drop you experience and whether you play with the pedals down more that you play pedals up. Raising the Es to a reference of A-442.5 with a just tuning is really a compromise to center the tuning around A=440 in reference to the various flat notes. Both only apply to the open position, since the bar is used for all other notes.

I experience little cabinet drop and tune my Es to reference A=440. I also see no reason to tune to a pure tuning that may sound better alone but that will put me at odds with the rest of the band. I admit to usually flatting my thirds and sixths a tiny bit in the open tuning. After all, everything is a compromise.

All this is of little consequence once I actually start playing. Every single note or harmony that I play is compensated with the bar to sound the best in tune for that particular moment. I'm sure that in many circumstances, I'm actually flatting the thirds as I play in order to get a pure combination. But I'm also listening to the total band and adjusting my intonation to best fit the total sound. Most good piano players will comp behind you with root and fifths only. This allows you to play purer thirds as you solo. So who's to say what is right. I use equal temperament because I find it comfortable to have my combinations fall over the frets, and am generally pleased with the sound that I hear on tape with a band. It is much easier to tune up on stage with a tuner when you use equal temperament A=440, and I find it easier to play in tune with the band. This allows me more time to fret over my poor tone and tweak my amp in frustration

Sometimes, it doesn't matter because the new piano player will play every note and fill of every song all night anyway. And after all, the inherent limitations of any tuning can be overcome through poor technique and alcohol. . .

posted 26 October 1999 09:31 AM         

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Franklin D-10
Keep it Country, Hoss

posted 26 October 1999 11:05 AM         

"So that's how I started out. I played there and I played with Billie and Tiny Moore. That's where I met my first wife and I
married her. But in any event, what happened was I got tired of playing because then we didn't have these little electronic tuners, and half the band was out of tune half the time, and it bugged me."

Of course, all you veterans that never needed a tuner, it's 'cause you got better ears than Tiny Moore, right? Yeah, right.
That's like saying nobody ever drove too fast until they put speedometers in cars...
The level of "in-tuneness" required today is simply more demanding than 40 years ago, guys. Some of the intonation on those old records sucked! And, no, I won't cite examples. This ain't your daddy's Oldsmobile anymore.
And now, to the bomb shelter.....
-John
p.s. Mr Anderson, your comments are thought provoking, thank you. To drift off-topic, you know more about chords than any steeler I've ever heard, and I think your playing is simply Wonderful. Regards, -J

[This message was edited by John Steele on 10-26-99]

posted 26 October 1999 07:10 PM         

But I'm gonna try tuning my E's (on E9) to 442 like Reece Anderson suggests.

Reece, you say you tune your B's (universal) to 442 also. Do you think on a C6 neck the C's sould be at 442 also?

Thanks for your insight Reece, it's really appreciated.

posted 28 October 1999 05:25 PM         

[This message was edited by Vern Kendrick on 10-28-99]

posted 28 October 1999 06:11 PM         

So what is the bottom line?

TUNE IT...
UNTIL IT SOUNDS...
IN TUNE...
WHEN YOU'RE PLAYING IT.

posted 28 October 1999 07:39 PM         

ONLY THE JUST INTONATION CREATES PERFECT HARMONY
First rule is that harmony notes are only resonant with perfect ratios of frequencies. For many centuries it has been stated that perfect scale of any kind will have unequal intervals. A major scale has the following exact ratios.

9:8 5:4 4:3 3:2 5:3 2:1

In order to have harmony it is necessary for the difference between the notes to have small integer ratios for example (p/q). Lets say the 2 frequencies played together are f1 and (p/q)*f1. When the wave producing the first note has completed q cycles, the second will have completed p cycles. The combined waveform of the two notes will repeat every pq cycles. If p and q are not small integers, the time taken to repeat the pattern will be long. This is what causes discordant sounds and "beats".

THE TRANSPOSITION PROBLEM:
Unequal intervals like the just intonation cannot be transposed to a different root note. Start at a C note and apply the ratios above to get the PERFECT frequencies. Then match them against the tonic of D.

         C    D    E    F    G    A    B    C'   D'
Key C   264  297  330  352  396  440  495  528  594
Key D        297  334  371  396  445  495  557  594

As you can see only D, B, and G match. The same problem occurs when playing guitar or piano during triad inversion.

EQUAL TEMPERAMENT INVENTION
To band-aid the transposition problem inherent in the perfect scales above, Andreas Werckmeister came up with the equal temperament (like tuning to 440 on a tuner) in 1691. Equal temperament makes the ratio between each half step constant. Therefore transposition can be shifted up or down any number of half steps with the same harmony. The octave is the boundary. The mathematical relationship of the equal temperament is

fn = f0 * 2^(n/N)

Where f0 is the base frequency , n is the number of the note from 0 to N-1, and N is the subdivisions per octave (12 for western music).

WHY ARE WE TALKING ABOUT THIS AND HOW DOES IT APPLY TO THE STEEL GUITAR?
Steel guitar is one of the few chordal or polyphonic instruments that can actually have a controlled defined set of triads or chords. The guitar and piano are a big mess since playing a G chord 20 different ways all require different ratios. Monophonic instruments (1 note at a time) like horns are not so critical since their harmony note can only come from another instrument in the band and is an incoherent wave.

So..

Since it is possible to almost get a steel guitar in perfect tune, why not? You will still find that some of the Newman chart will split the difference between various pedal/knee lever combinations.

HOW ABOUT THE PROS?
If you only play single note leads, you don't really notice imperfections in equal temperament. Listen to Weldon play the George Strait version of "Right or Wrong". It is mostly single notes. Play that tuned up to 440 and you will never tell the difference. Weldon plays chords too, but that C6 style chords are mostly raking chords, more close to arpeggios. Play more that one note together for a long time (like Farewell Party) and you will darn sure hear the difference.

SUMMARY
I am note forcing just intonation on anyone and respect the tuning method that works well for the individual. I am just stating that steel players are rare in having an option to employ perfect tuning intervals for the most part and should take advantage of that benefit.

Very informative and interesting post.
I have some questions? Song in the Key of C. Suppose a Saxophone player is blowing a C note and another saxaphone player is blowing an E note. Which frequency is the 2nd saxaphone emmitting, 330 or 334? Or, neither?

In the above question, I am assuming that both instruments are brand new and well tuned instruments.

Following the points you made in your post, I conclude that each note on a horned instrument (say a flute and a clarinet), almost has to be tuned to "equal temperament". Else, how could these instruments play "in tune" in all 12 keys?

Assuming this is correct, does it not follow then, that two horned instruments playing harmony with each other would result in "beats" occurring when they played those "root" and "harmony" notes?

Carrying this to its final conclusion, If----the steel guitar were ever to be accepted (hopefully) in a Symphony orchestra, would the conductor (in all likelyhood) not insist that all strings, pedal and knee levers be tuned straight 440 reference?

Please, straighten me out if I am incorrect.

Pat

[This message was edited by PD on 10-29-99]

posted 29 October 1999 04:30 PM         

Brucie

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[This message was edited by Bruce W Heffner on 10-29-99]

posted 29 October 1999 05:19 PM         

Sorry, double post.

[This message was edited by frank rogers on 10-30-99]

Terry then stated, "Since it is possible to almost get a steel guitar in perfect tune, why not?" I would have assumed there is an excellent reason as to why not.

Since the rest of the band will most certainly strive for Equal Temperament tuning, not only when they tune guitars but in combining their single notes as well, then I would certainly expect they would like me ET as well. When one is playing either at home, or as a featured soloist at a steel show, then I can well see why that sweet spot would be so appealing. But on the bandstand, I would think our job is add our voice to the choir and blend in as much as possible with the other instruments. It makes no difference if our steels sound wonderfully in tune if in doing so, we only highlight the shortcomings of ET that all of the other instruments, (assuming electronic keyboards), are forced to tune to.

posted 30 October 1999 07:08 AM         

[This message was edited by frank rogers on 10-30-99]

[This message was edited by frank rogers on 10-31-99]

posted 30 October 1999 10:44 PM         

For an excellent example of horns in just intonation, I recommend Terry Riley's "Chanting the Light of Foresight" as performed by the Rova Saxaphone Quartet. This is modern classical music, and it is just gorgeous in my opinion. It's quite a contrast from the sax harmonies we're used to hearing in jazz combos.

A great book that explains just intonation is "Lies My Music Teacher Told Me" by Gerald Eskelin.

Regarding Terry's question ("why not?"), I have a reason. In public performance, environmental factors can cause an instrument's tuning to drift. If you tune exactly in JI, any tuning drift that further flattens the thirds will sound unacceptable to the audience.

Audiences will accept equal temperament, but if you tune to that and tuning drift makes your thirds go sharper, again the sound will be unacceptable.

My solution is to split the difference. I tune the thirds sharp of JI, but flat of ET. This way, if my tuning changes by a little bit, I'm still in the ballpark of what the ear will accept.

I believe that thirds placed anywhere in the range between JI and ET will resolve just fine in the audience's ears. They have to accept JI because the laws of physics cannot be denied. They are trained to accept ET by the radio and every electronic keyboard they have ever heard. So anywhere between those two points will resolve in the ear of the listener.

That's my theory, anyway!

There is a tuning that was used by a lot of western swing lap steelers. It is:

E
C#
B
G#
F#
E
D
B

Someone please tell me how to tune the E, the B, the G#, the C# AND the F#, AND the D without beats.

I have heard many say, "I tune beatless". Then show me how in the above scenario you would do this. Or better yet, show me how you do this on E9th on a pedal steel (without compensators).

I first became aware of the problem with the "western swing" tuning.

With pedals it first manafested itself with the pesky 1st and 7th strings (A and B down versus up).

On C6th, it is all over the place. Try to get the "7th" note (6th string) on pedal 6 to sound good AND the C minor chord to sound good! Can't be done. The 7th will either be unacceptably sharp or the minor will be too flat to the ear.

Try to get the beat out of the F# (pedal 5, 5th string) and the 4th string AND at the same time, the 9th chord using strings, 2, 3 and 5 to sound right. Cannot be done. There are a number of other conflicts so to speak on C6th.

I hear what you are saying b0b. I respect you very much. I will get one or more of the books you referenced and read them.

However, I still feel that after all is said and done, and as we get and use more and more pedal combinations, we are simply one day going to have to follow the paths of Buddy Emmons, Weldon Myrick, Bill Stafford, and others.

ET, as "beatful" and hateful as it is , is probably correct. I love a steel's beautiful sound on E9th when tuned "just intonation", but I am afraid what I love is incorrect.

The girlfriend who said, "Your steel sounds flat". Or the constant referral by people saying similar things should not go unheard by us (IMO). I heard someone once say, "I will start teaching steel when you guys learn how to tune it". Maybe some good food for thought.

Could it be that this is the key to why more people don't accept the steel in more varied musical forms?

Pat

[This message was edited by PD on 10-31-99]

posted 31 October 1999 10:36 AM         

quote:

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If----the steel guitar were ever to be
accepted (hopefully) in a Symphony orchestra, would the conductor (in all likelyhood) not insist that all strings, pedal and knee levers be tuned straight 440 reference?

---

I suppose one would need to use ET in such a case, especially playing single note patterns. However as bOb stated, you don't hear the difference as much when it comes from different instruments. The same instrument playing more than one note is where it is mose noticeable.

I play guitar and tune ET with a tuner. I would never play a bar chord with all notes because I know I would be horribly out of tune. I can't tune a guitar by ear. I visit my Dad in North Carolina and he always asks be to tune his old guitar. He thinks I'm crazy that I have been playing guitar since I was 5 years old and can't tune one. I can get it right for a open G, but it is off for an open E, and etc.

After reading this post I feel like all the forumites do is walk around thinking about temperaments.

This is great stuff. I enjoyed reading every person's points and opinions. It really shows that what works well for one may not be right for someone else. The only common thing about steel players is that we think a lot and care about how we sound.

posted 01 November 1999 08:35 AM         

The fingered notes of woodwind and brass instruments such as saxophones and trumpets are tuned 12 tone equal temperment. You can adjust the mouthpieces or tuning loops/slides to sharpen or flat the entire instrument. However, all good horn players will vary the pitch of their instrument as they play to make each note best sound in tune. They do this with their mouth or special tuning slides.

The keyboards are the lone instruments that are locked to the equal temperment 12 tone scale. Everyone, including choral groups, has to acomodate to them.

No matter which open tuning you use, you have to listen and adjust pitch as you play. This is a very hard concept for young band students and no doubt steelers too.

quote:

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No matter which open tuning you use, you have to listen and adjust pitch as you play.

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posted 01 November 1999 04:33 PM         

We're up to 70 posts now. I guess it ain't over quite yet! (And never will be.)

posted 01 November 1999 04:48 PM         

quote:

---

I still have a problem!
There is a tuning that was used by a lot of western swing lap steelers. It is:

E
C#
B
G#
F#
E
D
B

Someone please tell me how to tune the E, the B, the G#, the C# AND the F#, AND the D without beats.

---

For a practical solution, most 8 string players tune the F# to the B, then tune the D to the F# (which makes the D sharp of ET). If you need to play the C# and F# together, a slight forward slant resolves the problem.

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-b0b- ... click www.b0b.com/products
-System Administrator

[This message was edited by b0b on 11-01-99]