posted 25 October 1999 04:08 AM         

However, I used to tune everything to "0" or "440" on a tuner and I was always told I was out of tune. After I started tuning using the Newman chart (E's at "0" and everything else flat) no one ever told me I was out of tune.

------------------
Franklin D-10
Keep it Country, Hoss

posted 25 October 1999 04:51 AM         

When I am in a hurry I just tune this guitar to stright up 440 and go with it, seems to work well. Oh I love this little blueCarter guitar.

Some players tune to a "just tuning" (flatting the 3rds and 6ths), others tune straight 440. Still others anywhere in between these two extremes.

I have thought about it for many, many years. Discussed it with others. I don't see much agreement about it when you consider all.

One fact does stand out though; we steel players spend an inordinate amount of time tuning the steel. There ARE some exceptions to this. I think that one of the things that contribute to this is the fact that the steel guitar's overtones (and specific, produced harmonics) are much more acute (easily heard) than on other instruments.

A good case in point is the piano. They are tuned very close to straight up. There is a little shift from this at the lower keys and an oposite shift at the upper keys. However, for the most part, pretty close to 440 reference.

When one does this on the steel guitar, most say it is way out of tune. Yet, a piano tuned exactly the same way does not appear to be that far out of tune relatively speaking.

So my feeling (possibly wrong) is that it is the specific overtones of the steel, that may be subdued on the piano, that accounts for what a person hears. This can be tolerated on one instrument and yet be unbearable on some other instrument.

There is another thing and this stands out very, very strong in my mind. I learned a long time ago that if a manufacturer puts a knob, lever or any kind of adjustable feature on a product, it IS going to be adjusted. GUARANTEED! Even when they affix a warning saying, DO NOT ADJUST!

So, my point is this: From day one, a stringed instrument (EXCEPT the piano) has those keys staring you in the face. On a pedal steel they are beautiful!!!!!! And BIG!! They ARE going to be turned, if for no other reason than psychological! I will be the first to admit guilt

The end conclusion is that as we TURN them (and we turn them often), our ears become cultured. Over time, we become acutely aware of subtle nuances that others not subjected to this, can even begin to hear.

I don't believe the problem will ever be solved. There is as many ways to tune an instrument as there are people tuning them.

It is very frustrating for me to try to tune that dang 6th string on E9th. Even worse is the F pedal (raising the E's). Add cabinet drop and/or hysterisis, and one occasionally wants to take an axe to it.

What bugs me to no end is this; Weldon Myrick tunes straight up (everything 440 reference). John Hughey tunes way flat on his thirds and sixths. YET, BOTH, I repeat, BOTH sound wonderfully pure and IN TUNE to my ears. I believe others feel the same way. These two players are among the most listenable players on earth IMHO.

So, you tell me how this can happen. Is it all psychological in the end????

posted 25 October 1999 08:25 AM         

Jeff's chart doesn't do that - each note is tuned differently. Jeff offsets his Just Intonation upward to "center" the variance from equal temperament at 0 (a.k.a. 440 Hz). That's an entirely different issue.

Bob is talking about the difference between equal temperament (ET) and just intonation (JI). In his opinion, JI wins hands down. I tend to agree. It's the sweetest sound in the world.

posted 25 October 1999 09:56 AM         

He claims tuning slightly sharp makes the guitar in better tune with all the other instruments.

posted 25 October 1999 10:55 AM         

Now, in the last years, I used to use a keyboard to program rhythm tracks. Sounded great.
My steel was tuned "just intonation" (like Jeff). So, my steel sounded great too.
TOGETHER though, it sounded $@#ty to me and others.
Then (some times I'm lucky too) I found that I could program that keyboard to play in some sort of "key-based just temperament" (yeah I know b0b... ). That worked well together.

Anyway, for the heck of it I tried the "440"/"equal temperament" tuning, about a half year ago.
I feel it's playable and with the keyboard re-set to "equal" too, it sounded good to me and others too. ALTHOUGH, I found my self compensating with the bar on to shrill 3rd's, like when playing along strings 3 & 5 (E9th). I wouldn't be surprised to find out, that the good sounding pro's, that do play "equal" (or call it "440" or "straight"), do compensate with their bar.
The reason I went back to "just" (flatted 3rd's), is that "equal" was a mess to tune up to, and here is why: I don't tune every thing "open" (at the nut/no bar). I feel that once the bar is on the strings, everything's changed anyway: talk about INTONATION! Then are the inherrent mechanical problems associated with pedal steels, like "cabinet drop". How would I tune up everthing "440" when, as I depress pedals, some previously "440" tuned strings go flat?
So, I tune only my top E open, with a tuner, A&B-pedals down, which when I release A&B, brings it up somewhere over 440. Then I tune everything with the bar on the 8th fret, relative to that 4th string, listening for beat free interval's. This gives me a neck that is ~in tune within playing range.
The "tune with bar" procedure however, is very difficult to do for an "equal" tuning... it is almost impossible to tune to a tuner with the bar somewhere on the strings...

I talked to Maurice Anderson about this. He tunes "just" (I think). When asked, he said something like: "Why would you want to go to an "equal tuning"?. I explained my ideas and that people like Buddy Emmons and Weldon Myrick seem to do just fine with it. Referring to Buddy Emmons Maurice said, that his (BE's) approach to playing is different, that he (BE) is more of a melodic single note player and not so heavily into chords... Right or wrong, I think yes, what makes an "equal"-tuner sound right is not only how he tunes, but what he uses his tuning for, and how he compensates and compromises, and what may make a "just-tuner" sound flat, may be his/her rigidity on staying exactly over fret lines (some pedaled inversions just need some considerable bar compensation, as some roots are tuned flat).

... J-D.

[This message was edited by J D Sauser on 10-26-99]

posted 25 October 1999 11:05 AM         

When I got my MSA D-10, it came with the Newman 440 reference tuning guide. Since I don't have numbers to reference 440 with, I simply verified and tuned the instrument open - no pedals to the chart. Every string right on pitch. When I then went to check the tuning of pedals, it does not match up with the chromatic tuner.

Not being good enough to tell if it "sounds right" or not I simply have to belive the it is setup correctly, and I'm really not comfortable with that situation. I should be able to tune it, know when it is in tune and know why it is or isn't.

Any suggestions or comments are certainly welcome.

posted 25 October 1999 11:09 AM         

Nobody here is really any more qualified to consider themselves the "Keeper of the Pitch" than anyone else.

posted 25 October 1999 12:04 PM         

quote:

---

When I got my MSA D-10, it came with the Newman 440 reference tuning guide. Since I don't have numbers to reference 440 with, I simply verified and tuned the instrument open - no pedals to the chart. Every string right on pitch. When I then went to check the tuning of pedals, it does not match up with the chromatic tuner.

---

posted 25 October 1999 12:28 PM         

I concur with the point about string pitch changing with the temperature change caused by the player's hands.

When I set up to play a gig I always take several minutes to play the instrument before tuning (I use the Newman "442.5" charts as a reference). I will usually play some scales or a new lick I'm working on. I do this even if the steel is at room temperature because chances are good the room will not be at the temperature of my hands.

After a few minutes the strings are at or close to the temperature of my hands and I tune up. Then, if the strings cool down by the time the set starts, it will only be a few moments before the string temp is back where it was when I tuned up and the tuning should be accurate.

Also, because I always check my tuning in between sets, I tune up immediately after the last note of the ending set. This insures that the string temperature is right for my hands.

An example of what Red Rhodes demonstrated happens on my steel: My lowest string is an .080" "E" string. If I warm the string up with my finger and tune to 442.5 and let the string vibrate and cool down, I can watch the needle on my tuner go from 442.5 up to about 445.5. I suspect this amount of change is due to the mass of such a large string (more mass equals more contraction when cooling down).

String temperature aside, I am firm believer in the Newman "442.5" just intonation. My steel sounds much sweeter and more in tune than using the flat 440 method.

posted 25 October 1999 01:10 PM         

Ron Hiler

posted 25 October 1999 01:17 PM         

How were these beasts tuned before there was such a thing as an electronic tuner? Huh? Did you say, “By ear”? That’s what I thought. That would mean tuning out the beats, right?

One other question, how are these keyboard things tuned?

posted 25 October 1999 01:45 PM         

quote:

---

How were these beasts tuned before there was such a thing as an electronic tuner? Huh?
Did you say, “By ear”? That’s what I thought. That would mean tuning out the beats, right?

---

posted 25 October 1999 02:55 PM         

Pianos were tuned to Equal Temperment by ear hundreds of years before electronic tuners came along too.

The tuners are able to count the beats per second. This is no mean feat considerng the beat rate for the minor third test interval D - F is 15.85 beats per second. When Earnest finally publishes his course on this. . .

Bill

[This message was edited by Bill Rowlett on 10-25-99]

Thanks so much for posting!

Please, tell us. Do you tune every string and all changes on every string to straight up 440? I have heard for years that you did. I want to hear it directly from you though.

Whenever I have listened to you play, you have always sounded in tune to my ears.

posted 25 October 1999 06:40 PM         

Now I have a nice Boss chromatic tuner. I tried tuning by the Newman and Emmons charts and couldn't stand it.

I use the Boss to tune the E's on my E9th and the C's on my C6th. I tune the rest by ear and I'm in tune and the hell with the rest of it. A guy on the phone at Emmons pretty much said those charts are for people with out a good ear and I may agree.

How did the legendary players get by before tuners? They always sounded great. What ever they did is good enough for me.

posted 25 October 1999 07:51 PM         

Do I consider players who tune to 440 to be wrong? No, because if they are happy with the sound and it is pleasing to them, then thats the way they should tune their guitar.

I have heard a rumor that Emmons tunes his guitar 440, and who could question his talent, knowledge and ability, but I would like to hear it from him that he tunes every pedal and every knee lever perfectly to 440.

In my opinion, music itself implies compensation, because for music to sound pleasing to the ear, notes MUST be compensated to make up for the mathematical inconsistencies relative to our 12 note musical scale.

If I played and A6th tuning I would then tune my root note "A" to 440. But other root notes on other tunings should start with a number which would be relative to "A" 440 when "stretched". Every note in our musical scale is not 440 therefore they must be compensated so as to fall within our mathmetical musical scale.

When examining the actual musical mathematical formula, the distance between each note is not exact, therefore tuning each note exact (440)implies each note is the same distance apart.

In my opinion music should be played with a compensation between distances arranged in such a manner as everything sounds pleasing to the ear.

I believe the reason the E should be tuned 442 on the E9th tuning is because it is the root note. As the musical scale compensates for itself, the E note relative to the "A"440 would stretch out to be actually 442. So, when the root note is placed 442 you play with an appropriately "compensated scale".

I have also found tuning the "B" note on my "B6th" Unversal to 442 also works exceptionally well.

The primary intervals which require the most concern are the 3rd and 6th. I have found if I tune them by ear as sharp as possible without it bothering me while playing, I will enjoy playing, and be in tune to my ear.

When tuning the pedals and knee levers I tune them so they are pleasant to my ear, and again, I watch for the 3rd and 6th intervals to see how they sound relative to the chord voicings I'm playing.

posted 25 October 1999 09:24 PM         

He later gave me the best compliment ever by saying that this was the first guitar he had ever received from any company that he didn't have to tear apart and redo the setup. Whether that was due to the 440 tuning or the pedal heights/feels and knee lever angles and leverages or both, he didn't say.