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Question for C6 players - two feet? (Page 1)
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The Steel Guitar Forum
Pedal Steel Archive
Question for C6 players - two feet? (Page 1)
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| This topic is 2 pages long: 1 2 This topic was originally posted in this forum: Pedal Steel |
| Author | Topic: Question for C6 players - two feet? |
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Jeff Lampert Member Posts: 2636 |
posted 30 October 2000 12:55 PM
Do you use your right foot for pressing any of the pedals, and if so, is it occasional or fundamental to your playing style? What about the pros? What about BE and PF? Buddy Charleton? From what I saw on tape, neither Curly Chalker nor Tommy White seem to do it. I once saw Jimmy Day play a hot version of "Steel Guitar Rag", and he was using both feet like crazy. I understand Johnny Cox is a C6 chord whiz. Does he use both feet? If you use both feet, how do you control the volume pedal? Any and all responses are appreciated. Thanks |
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Jim Cohen Member Posts: 8715 |
posted 30 October 2000 01:43 PM
Great question, Jeff. John Swain and I toss this one around together all the time. Buddy Emmons seems to use 2 feet very frequently. I believe Johnny Cox does too. I asked Johnny recently how he does this without whomping back onto his volume pedal when he comes back to it (which, of course, is the big question here). He told me that he makes sure to put his heel down first on the pedal, so that if anything happens, it will be to the quieter side of things rather than blasting the next note out (like I tend to do when I try this trick!) Hope this helps. Maybe Johnny will comment personally. ------------------ |
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John Steele Member Posts: 2469 |
posted 30 October 2000 02:19 PM
My relatively unexperienced opinion, for what it's worth: I think it depends alot on your set up. Mine is very similar to Buddy's, and I have completely resigned myself to having to use 2 feet. Fundamental. I remember reading a comment by Bruce Bouton, who said to lay off the volume pedal in that instance, and use your hands for expression. That's what I'm trying. I've watched Johnny Cox several times, and I'd have to guess that his own guitar is set up in such a way as to make it less necessary to use both feet... Although he used both feet alot when I watched him play a loaner steel in the Derby booth in St. Louis. I'd have to admit, Johnny's use of the volume pedal for swells and expression is wonderful, something you can lose easily using two feet. Forumite Jerry Gleason has addressed this issue by figuring out a setup conducive to one-foot playing, which I believe is posted in the forum Tunings section. Maybe Jerry will comment further. -John |
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LowellG Member Posts: 86 |
posted 30 October 2000 02:34 PM
I think I can say that Buddy Charleton does not use two feet on the C6 neck (I've been studying with him for about four months now, a month on this neck). He does almost all his single note work on this neck with no pedals whatsoever. One great clue he gave me this week was to see what the pedal does, then duplicate it with bar work. If the pedal makes an A7, then make those moves with the bar. I have never seen his right foot move from the volume pedal. ------------------ |
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Donny Hinson Member Posts: 9192 |
posted 30 October 2000 02:44 PM
When I had the standard C6th setup, I would do that a lot! So I developed my own setup to eliminate it. Problem is...now it's hard to play someone elses' axe since I've gotten real used to my own setup. Everything is a trade-off, I guess. |
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Jerry Gleason Member Posts: 539 |
posted 30 October 2000 03:10 PM
I did change my pedal setup so that I don't need two feet to play most of the chords and licks that I use most often, especially the 5/7 combinations. This setup works for me, but as Donny points out, it's pretty hard to jump on someone else's axe with a standard setup after you get used to something different.  I don't think there's anything wrong with using two feet, but I decided on this approach because it gives me easiest access to the the stuff I use most. |
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Quesney Gibbs Member Posts: 186 |
posted 30 October 2000 03:11 PM
There are some songs that require two feet. The Girl from Ipania is one that I can think of right at the moment. Not too many steel playere play that one any more but it sure impresses the crowd. |
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Johnny Cox Member Posts: 935 |
posted 30 October 2000 03:43 PM
It is true that I use two feet at times. Curly did not, that is one reason his copedant was so repeatitve. I have changed my copedant 100s of times trying to get away from useing both feet and I am close now but as I find more new goodies I find myself running out of knees. Some say that is is not proper pedal steel etiquette to use both feet, my answer is proper etiquette is what ever works for you as long as it sounds good.
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Richard Sinkler Member Posts: 2896 |
posted 30 October 2000 05:25 PM
I moved my 7th & 8th pedals onto knees to eliminate having to play with two feet. My setup can be seen on my website www.sinkler.com ------------------ |
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Lee Baucum Member Posts: 3201 |
posted 30 October 2000 05:29 PM
Quesney - Go back and look at Jerry's set up. By having that Right Knee Left set up the way it is (instead of a pedal) Girl From Ip. can be played with only one foot on the pedals. I have that change on a lever on my Mullen U-12. It sure comes in handy. Lee, from South Texas |
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Jim Cohen Member Posts: 8715 |
posted 30 October 2000 05:39 PM
quote: Steel guitar etiquette?? That's the first time I've ever heard of "steel guitar etiquette"! I'd love to see the complete list of steel guitar etiquette "do's" and "don'ts", wouldn't you? I'll bet we could have some fun generating the list (but let's do it in a separate thread, okay fellas?) ------------------ |
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Lee Baucum Member Posts: 3201 |
posted 30 October 2000 05:50 PM
We all know that it's the lead guitar players that need to learn some etiquette! Lee |
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ebb Member Posts: 1045 |
posted 30 October 2000 05:59 PM
Steel Guitar EDiquette 1)If one must put both feet on the pedals one should avoid putting them on the same pedal at the same time. 2)Under no circumstances cross your legs in order to place said feet on said pedals. |
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Marty Pollard Member Posts: 392 |
posted 30 October 2000 06:11 PM
Good point Jim, but did you consider; quote:Seems like a situational ethics argument to me. |
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Al Marcus Member Posts: 7471 |
posted 30 October 2000 08:13 PM
I have seen Buddy Emmons and Jimmy Day both use two feet on their C6 neck. Mainly the right foot covers Pedal 7, the Maj7 that goes with 5 and 6. That is the way it was in the early days. Now with knee levers, things are changing. Check out Jerry Gleason's C6 tuning. Pretty good mechanicals. I always played with both feet on my old Gibson Electra-Harp, had to, to get the chords I wanted. But now with my S12 Carter coming, I will have the 7th pedal on a knee, and the 8th boowah pedal on a knee. Then I can play most all the swing stuff with left foot on Pedal 5 and 6 and use the knees.......Oh happy day.......al |
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Jim Cohen Member Posts: 8715 |
posted 30 October 2000 08:45 PM
quote:Al, that would have been a good trick on my old Electraharp, since all of the pedals came off of the left side of the guitar, rather than from the front like modern guitars. So, that's a looong way to reach over with your right foot! ------------------ |
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Bobby Boggs Member Posts: 3623 |
posted 30 October 2000 09:31 PM
I've never had a problem using two feet.Listen to Buddy's swing albums and he does it a lot.I remember seeing Buddy Charlton when I was like 9 years old,he used both feet a lot,and I thought it was just to cool!But that was 1966 [This message was edited by Bobby Boggs on 30 October 2000 at 09:54 PM.] |
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Jeff Lampert Member Posts: 2636 |
posted 30 October 2000 09:54 PM
How do you make sure your volume pedal is set at the right level when you take off your right foot? Also, which foot do you use for the rightmost foot pedal when you want to hit the boo-wah note? [This message was edited by Jeff Lampert on 30 October 2000 at 09:57 PM.] |
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Bobby Boggs Member Posts: 3623 |
posted 30 October 2000 11:11 PM
Jeff for me I guess it's just a feel thing.Like not looking at your right hand.I might add that when I use both feet it's usually a medium or up tempo tune, where your not using the volume pedal as you would on a slow tune.As for my 9th pedal it depends on what kind of mood im in,as for which foot I use. I broke my left foot once and played E9 pedals and left Knees with my right foot.I tuned my second string down to D.Back then I had to play a lot of break-downs so it worked ok.However I'm sure I played some ugly slow stuff.But try using your right foot for E9 pedals, and right foot work on C is a piece a cake. |
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Jack Stoner Sysop Posts: 8119 |
posted 31 October 2000 03:21 AM
I use both feet occasionally, but primarily the left foot for the pedals. Nice thing about my Franklin, I can reach all the pedals on both necks without having to move my left leg to reach all the C6th pedals. My particular style (if it is a "style") of C6th playing I tend to use the pedals more for chords or chord voicing than I do to pedal in and out of single notes, like is done on the E9th. I also do a lot of C6th picking without pedals - but that is probably a carry over since I'm an old fart and started playing steel on a lap steel before there was pedals. As far as the volume pedal, I find much of the C6th can be done without the volume pedal - just "set it and forget it". But then I don't use the volume pedal as much as some on the E9th either. You can get a lot of expression just with the picking hand. |
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Gary Lee Gimble Member Posts: 932 |
posted 31 October 2000 03:55 AM
During the big jam at the end of the Steelin for Hearts show last year, Buddy Charlton was using both feet on a couple of tunes. As much as he was moving his feet, I was initially left with the impression he was trying to squash a bug. NOT! I'm just plain jealous!!!!!! Greetings Mr. Charlton! Gary Lee |
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C Dixon Member Posts: 5912 |
posted 31 October 2000 08:18 AM
Buddy Emmons, Jimmy Day and Buddy Charleton did and do use both feet. Probably no one except Lew Houston uses both feet more than Buddy Emmons. I do not believe I have ever seen Curly Chalker use both feet as Johnny Cox so poignantly pointed out. Nor Hal Rugg nor so many others. I do not know about Paul Franklin. I don't recall ever seeing him use both feet. But he might. And if he did, it would be fluid and beautiful I am sure. Truly one of the most awesome and incredible of all time is PF. Buddy Emmons can come off that dang volume pedal and back on it so fast it would make a speeding bullet seem to stand still in comparison Lew Houston epitomizes the use of both feet like NO PSG player I have ever seen in my life. It is musical feet personified! Just awesome to watch his feet. Truly one of the most unique and unusual players to ever play the PSG. And the most fun to watch (along with BE) of them all. Incidently, Lew's "volume pedal" is his little finger wrapped around the volume contol on the top of his guitar! And if you did not know it, you would swear he had a volume pedal. Truly a fantastic player. I love to watch Buddy Emmons use both feet. He uses all combinations of pedals and knee levers when he does it. Like Lew Houston, it is totally second nature to him. And I don't even think he is aware of it as he does it. God bless all of these great steel players. carl |
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rmason Member Posts: 230 |
posted 02 November 2000 03:06 AM
I'm 6'4" tall and my Sho~Bud is raised 4" over stock height and I still have a hard time moving just one foot around down there when I'm trying to play pedals on C6. It would be physical torture if I were also dealing with C6 knee levers. Is it because of the wide, paddle type Any other long-legged git-tar pickers have ------------------ |
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Bill Ford Member Posts: 1724 |
posted 02 November 2000 05:43 PM
--------------------------------------------- Under no circumstances cross your legs in order to place said feet on said pedals. -------------------------------------------- A long time ago I saw BE cross his right over his left to play,don't remember the tune but Bill Ford ------------------ |
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Chas Holman Member Posts: 188 |
posted 02 November 2000 05:49 PM
I must confess, I only use my two "left" feet. |
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Richard Sinkler Member Posts: 2896 |
posted 03 November 2000 07:32 AM
2 left feet..Hmmm..Very Interesting  ------------------ |
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Al Marcus Member Posts: 7471 |
posted 03 November 2000 09:26 PM
Jim- In answer to your question, it was not very hard to play both feet on the pedals, here is why.... Your Electra-harp was probably post war in the 50's.I never liked that model, that is when they lost the ball to Fender.Mine was a whole different breed. I had the full cabinet Pre-War Gibson Electra-Harp with 6 pedal across the left corner of the cabinet, all rods . Alvino Rey had the first one, but he took it off the cabinet and mounted it on a Vib stand with wheels so everyone could see the pedals. Mine was a birdseye maple cabinet all the way to the floor. I wish I still had it for historical reasons. It is true that I had to sit and face sideways all the time to the left. The pedals spread out quite a ways on it. Jack- I am another one and know what you are saying. Did a lot of that too in the old days. Johnny- Yes Curly never seemed to use both feet on the pedals. But He had the most educated , flexible left leg that I ever saw. [This message was edited by Al Marcus on 04 November 2000 at 08:38 PM.] |
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Richard Sinkler Member Posts: 2896 |
posted 04 November 2000 06:57 AM
Another reason for not having to use 2 feet: When the guitar or fiddle player is close enough to you, you can reach out and kick them in the shin so they will stop playing all over you. A very handy technique. You don't have to worry where your volume pedal is set as they will be screaming loud enough that no one will notice. ------------------ |
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Kenneth Kotsay Member Posts: 306 |
posted 06 November 2000 05:01 PM
By using the 5 & 7th pedals with two feet you would get a 13th chord according to Buddy Emmons C6th Course, that's what he describes on page 11, he explains that on the 12 fret a D13th (II13th) is formed. He uses these two pedals in a chord run on, "JERSEY BOUNCE" which sounds great. SOLUTION: What about the 4th pedal which I hardly use and in fact a couple of days ago there was a thread on the usage of the 4th pedal which most people replied that this pedal is very seldom used. (it forms a SO, why not change the 4th pedal to the same string changes like the 7th pedal. That's right two, "7th" pedals, sounds strange and redundant but it beats having to come off the volume pedal and use two feet. So now instead of using pedal 5&7 just use 4&5. Ken, "THE STEELING POLICEMAN" |
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Lane Gray Member Posts: 19 |
posted 07 November 2000 04:18 AM
I (mostly) solved the problem by putting P5 on a knee |
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Larry Bell Member Posts: 4116 |
posted 07 November 2000 08:07 AM
I solved it by putting P6 on a lever. Think about it. LTB |
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Jeff Lampert Member Posts: 2636 |
posted 08 November 2000 02:22 PM
quote: Solves one problem, but seems to create another. I think the 5,6 diminished chord is the most popular pedal change and now requires a foot AND a knee. |
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Don McClellan Member Posts: 882 |
posted 08 November 2000 09:54 PM
Jeff, I'm not sure which problem you think having pedal 6 on a knee solves or what problem it creates. Yes, the diminished chord (pedals 5+6) takes a pedal and a knee, but so does playing pedals 4+6, 5+7(just one foot), 6+8, 6+7+8, 4+5+6 and 5+6+7. (I've never used pedals 5+8 together. Have You?) The problem comes with arranging the knee levers. If you had your pedal 6 change on your LKR then you'd need to put two knee levers offen used in conjunction with "pedal 6" on the opposite knee. And a vertical knee lever on the left to be used with the LKR and a LKL (doing what?) Got any ideas on how you'd arrainge the knees you'd have? This question is for anyone who has an idea. I could use the help. Thanks |
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Jeff Lampert Member Posts: 2636 |
posted 08 November 2000 11:39 PM
Well, I guess the word "problem" is the wrong way to put it. What I was trying to say was that the 5,6 combination is very common, I think more common by far than any of the other pedal combinations you mentioned, and to split it up would be sort of analygous to spliting up the A,B pedals (on the E9 neck) between a foot and a knee. Maybe not quite as significant, since nothing is used more than the A,B combination, but you get the point. I know you can put the 6 pedal on a knee, and I know of a couple of Forum members who have done it, but it seems that you get rid of one inconvience (two feet) but create another, so I guess it's just a matter of what you are more comfortable with. And besides, no matter how you set it up, there are always combinations you can come up with that require two feet. Anyway, seeing as it seems that a number of players do use two feet, at least I'm not alone. And I don't think I would change pedals to knees, because then a knee would go to pedal 6, and figuring out all the permutations all over again, and which work best together, will drive me nuts. [This message was edited by Jeff Lampert on 08 November 2000 at 11:42 PM.] |
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Jeff Lampert Member Posts: 2636 |
posted 08 November 2000 11:47 PM
I take it you have pedal 6 on a knee, so I can't offer any suggestions. I have my 4th string 1/2 tone raise and lower on the left knee, and the third string 1/2 tone raise and lower on the right knee. [This message was edited by Jeff Lampert on 08 November 2000 at 11:48 PM.] |
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Don McClellan Member Posts: 882 |
posted 09 November 2000 12:13 AM
Jeff, of the 4 knee levers you mentioned which one do you use in conjunction with your pedal 6 the least? Yes, my pedal 6 is on a knee because I play a U12 and thats how I get my D note on the E9 side. I love this system because it alows me to play without using two feet on the pedals. |
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Ernie Renn Member Posts: 2657 |
posted 09 November 2000 03:55 AM
Buddy Emmons uses both feet. Sometimes it seems he can push the pedal with his right foot and get back to the volume pedal in time to bring up the volume on the pedal change. Normally, he uses the right foot for the 8th pedal and a lot for the 7th pedal, too, (5 and 7). Buddy Charleton also uses both feet. ------------------ |
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Richard Sinkler Member Posts: 2896 |
posted 09 November 2000 07:45 AM
I always found trying to hit 5 & 7 with 2 feet difficult. I would sometimes miss and hit 6 & 7 or 7 & 8 or simply have my foot slip off the pedal making that terrible clunking noise that makes everyone on the bandstand brown out their undies. That is why I chose to put pedal 7 on my right knee right. I lower the c - b on right knee left. I figure that I don't have real need to hit both those changes at once. ------------------ |
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C Dixon Member Posts: 5912 |
posted 09 November 2000 08:03 AM
Pedal 6 on a knee???? It moves pedal 5 and 7 together. I like that a lot. I see NO difficulty using pedal 5 and a knee lever for pedal 6. A direct comparison would be using the B pedal and LKR (lowering the E's) on E9th. This is a very common change that just about everybody uses all the time. So I see no problem with using a pedal and a knee to get the diminished on C6. A number of players in Atlanta have long since had the 8th pedal on LKL on C6. I really love this also. And Buddy Emmons uses pedal 5 and 8 (both feet) a lot. So having 8 on a knee is great I think. HOWEVER, on a U-12, having pedal 6 on RKR is absolutely necessary for me. I would NOT play a U-12 without it on a knee lever. Here is why. I use it with every single pedal and every knee lever except raising the E's and of course RKL (which is impossible). Matter of fact, having the the 6th pedal on RKR and using it with pedal A and/or B is just too wonderful a capability to be without. Also; For years and years, I have felt the need to take the 8th string on down another half tone after lowering the E's. Having had my U-12 now since April, I can state without any hesitation, I would never be without it this way again. I just love it. The following change is used in music all the time. I to V7 change: Picking strings 5, 6 and 8. Then engage LKL (lowering the E's). Then while sustaining, engage RKR (raising 4 a half tone and lowering 8 a half tone). Sure one could stop gap and get that note on string 9 (if it is a D note), but that removes the "evolve" which to me is more important than I can describe. As I have stated so many times on this forum, the primary beauty, IMHO, of the PSG, is its ability to evolve and make use of the "moving tone" capability. NO other istrument on earth can do it as well. And some can't do it at all. IE, piano. Floyd Cramer can do a psuedo "moving note" with his copied pedal lick* which has been dubbed "bent note". But it is still not the same. So from years of thinking about it and now reality and the joy of using it, I feel that having pedal 6 on a knee lever (possibly pedal 8 too), is well worth doing it and going through the "learning curve". It does require putting lowering of the C to B change on LKV. But just about every U-12'r does that anyway. And I have heard of NO problem there. So Don, and others, try it. You may just like it once you get used to it. carl * rumor for years said that the A and B pedal lick was copied from Floyd Cramer's "bent note" lick. I categorically state this to be false. I also go further and believe with every fiber of my being that it was clearly the other way around!! |
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Doug Seymour Member Posts: 785 |
posted 09 November 2000 08:13 AM
Here's my take on this. Ever since 1973 I've had C6 p7 on my RKL. I know there are some others that do this. I think I saw it in Winnie's book as Weldon's tuning, but I'm not sure that he kept that change? I know I've used it too long to do anything else. I think the mention of the 2 Buddys in a post above using both feet is THE way to go! I use the p7 change all the time w/p5&6 in playing old standard big band tunes with the big chords in them. I only use 3 on the floor...p1 6th E to F, p2 5th G to F# 9th F to F# & 10th C to D (std C6 p5, in other words) p3 2nd E to F & 6th E to Eb. The knees are LKL 4th A to Bb, LKR 3 & 7 Cs to C#s, RKL 3 & 4 to D & B, RKR 3rd C to B. I use this on an Excel keyless S10 (oops I have a LKV that lowers 4 to Ab) & it works OK. I also have it on a Zumsteel that I converted to keyless 10 or so years ago. On that I had some stiffness when I added the std E9 changes to these same knee levers. (pulling both necks @ the same time) I seemed to have trouble with more than 5 knees. Guess I didn't try long enough or hard enough. Doug (What works for you is the way to go I guess. I've met steel players with somewhat non-standard & therefore awkward set-ups just because the first steel they had was that way & they never thought of trying anything else! [This message was edited by Doug Seymour on 09 November 2000 at 08:17 AM.] |
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