posted 09 January 2001 02:19 PM         

Matt

posted 09 January 2001 05:19 PM         

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Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
Sierra Session S-12 (E9), Speedy West D-10 (E9, D6),
Sierra 8 Laptop (D13), Fender Stringmaster D-8 (D13, A6)

[This message was edited by Bobby Lee on 09 January 2001 at 05:21 PM.]

posted 09 January 2001 09:20 PM         

Whatever you do, DO NOT look up the word physics in the dictionary

Bob

posted 09 January 2001 09:27 PM         

Relative steel newbie, yet experienced and educated musician chimes in with this...

Some sort of JI tuning or a close variation is essential to the steel, to my ears. If the problem is playing with keyboards then why not play less complex chords (like two notes) and adjust/slant the bar to taste? That bar is the "secret weapon", if you ask me.

Assuming the keyboard person ever shuts up, you're back in the pocket.

Another thought... Band players should be working together as an ensemble. Keyboards and steel often share the same musical space when 'comping, so try not to both be playing complex chords (in some cases, even a simple triad) at the same time?

Bottom line for me... Tune in some sort of JI fashion and slant the bar to taste and fit.

Best, as always, -Dave

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Mullen (See! No "S") D-10
Photo page

[This message was edited by Dave Horch on 10 January 2001 at 06:47 AM.]

posted 10 January 2001 10:22 AM         

Well, almost a G#. Depends on who you talk to.

posted 10 January 2001 10:30 AM         

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The Unofficial Photographer of The Wilkinsons

posted 10 January 2001 11:00 AM         

quote:

---

The key of E has four sharps, no flats. G# and Ab are actually two different notes at different frequencies.

---

Yep, and thus the joke.

Now, if I can just figure out where the Ab and G# are on my piano, I'll be in business. I think somebody stuck those two keys together on mine.

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The Unofficial Photographer of The Wilkinsons

posted 10 January 2001 11:07 AM         

quote:

---

Hey,Bobby, where do you harmonic to get a JI major 3rd?

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posted 10 January 2001 05:38 PM         

quote:

---

G# and Ab are actually two different notes at different frequencies.

---

posted 10 January 2001 08:01 PM         

But I did get an A in my high school AP physics class, and one thing I remember is that physics describes physical phenomina. And there is no denying that there is a reason why tuning the beats out sounds good, and is has to do with the physical properties of vibration. Which puts Newton on the JI camp, I suppose.

There also is nothing magical about a 12 tone scale. And I personally don't think it is important for me to make compromises to sound in tune with a piano. IMHO all pianos sound out of tune. In fact, great piano tuners play all sorts of tricks with intunation (e.g. tuning each string slightly off, to 'fatten' the note, or tuning the bass notes flat). I know and accept that not all possible string and pedal combinations will sound in tune. That's one of the magical things about the steel guitar, it gives the player with an ear the opportunity to play in tune (by ear).

posted 10 January 2001 10:08 PM         

Basically, the story goes like this: back when people first started trying to make music (which was something other than a stick pounded against a log), they found out that you could stretch a string real tight between two points, and if the conditions were right, it made a note when you plucked it that sounded OK. Thus, the stringed instrument was born.

Humans being of the inquisitive type, somebody soon found out that if you shorten the length of the string by one-third of its length, another note is made that sounded pretty good in relation to the first note. Then, some crazy guy stretched two strings relatively close to one another to make a "multi-stringed" instrument. Well, this crazy guy tuned one of the strings to the first note and the other string to the second note which was one-third the first note.

Well, you can imagine what happened next -- people went nuts over the darned thing. This was the best thing since sliced . . . well, since sliced wild boar meat.

The neat thing was that when you played the two notes together at the same time, you got a harmonizing sound. It was fantastic! People couldn't get enough of it. The whole thing went wild. Pretty soon, of course, people found out that if you shortened the second string by a third, you got a note that harmonized with the second string. So now you could build an instrument with three strings that sounded pretty cool because it made two different harmonizing sounds. Of course, people quickly realized that you could keep adding strings in this way -- just tune the new string to one-third the length of the previous string -- then you could get multiple harmonizing sounds.

Pretty soon, people started studying this phenomenon and began to write music using single notes and these two-note harmonies. The Church kind of liked the sound of this new beat, and somebody wrote a bunch of chants that sounded pretty good. They called them Gregorian chants after some guy named Greg, I guess.

The thing was that this new music stuff was cool, but tended to be a little limited in its scope because you could only play a few notes together in one song and still sound cool. If you tried to play more than just a few of the notes together it definitely did not sound cool. So, the music got kinda boring after awhile because of this limitation.

By this time, people had developed elaborate multi-stringed instruments (which were tuned to Just Intonation). At the same time, they recognized a problem -- as you added strings, everything was cool for a while. But, when you added the 13th string it was almost the same tone (although almost an octave or two different) as the 1st string, but not quite. So, you pretty much had to stick to playing only certain notes together -- otherwise it sounded like . . .well, you know.

Because people were really getting bored with listening to thosed darned Gregorian chants all the time, they started thinking of what to do next. That's when some genius realized that since this 13th string produced a note that was almost the same as the note produced by the first string, you could tweak each of the strings a little bit to get twelve equal tone variations between two octave notes, and VOILA!!! EUREKA!! the twelve note, Equal Tempered scale is born. Wow!!

Talk about a revolution!! People started building all sorts of wild, wacky instruments like keyboards, flutes, violins and stuff, and started writing all sorts of really far-out music like overtures, operas and stuff that would soon become classical. The cool thing about this new 12-note scale is that you could play all of these instruments together at the same time and it sounded like . . . well, like a symphony. KILLER, Man!

Sure beats listening to those Gregorian chants all the time!

[This message was edited by Tom Olson on 10 January 2001 at 10:13 PM.]

I make a lot of mistakes, so I have to do a lot of editing.

[This message was edited by Tom Olson on 11 January 2001 at 07:53 AM.]

posted 11 January 2001 07:07 AM         

quote:

---

But, when you added the 13th string it was almost the same note as the 1st string, but not quite.

---

Hmmmm, sounds like a physics problem to me!

I "used" to think I understood all this stuff about ET and JI (after all, I am an engineer, not a musician). But, it's been too long and my brain almost hurts when I try to think about it too much now. (Does that mean I'm getting old?).

I'll say one thing: seems like steel guitar players are some of the smartest musicians around. I haven't heard too many regular guitar players, sax players, etc. talk about JI vs ET. Every once in a while, I'll hear a violinist comment about it.

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The Unofficial Photographer of The Wilkinsons

posted 11 January 2001 08:17 AM         

It also took me a while to figure out what was going on -- and I'm still not sure if I know. Anyway, maybe this will help. Being an engineer, you're probably familiar with natural harmonics, where a body can be induced to vibrate at a given frequency which is dependent on various characteristics of the body such as its mass, density, demensions, etc. etc.

First of all let me say that I'm a musical rank amatuer, so if I'm wrong, go easy on me -- I've had no formal musical training.

OK -- here goes. . . . .

Well, let's say you have a guitar string which is tuned to an A note. Now, you shorten this string by EXACTLY 1/3 its length. This would be ALMOST at the 7th fret of a guitar, but not exactly. Anyway, by shortening the A string by 1/3 you get a natural harmonic which is an E note in Just Intonation. This natural harmonic is a bit flat of the note you would get if you fretted the seventh fret of the A string (you'll understand why in a minute).

If you do the same thing to this E string (shorten it by 1/3) you get a natural harmonic of the E string which is a B note in Just Intonation. However, this B note is just a bit flat of playing the E string of a guitar on the seventh fret.

If you keep doing this (shortening the preceding string by exactly 1/3 it's length) you will get a succession of notes which are natural harmonics of the preceding notes. This is the Just Intonation scale.

The thing is, you will eventually come around to where you start over-lapping what you've already done. But, here's the kicker -- It DOESN'T OVERLAP EXACTLY!!

That is, when you do the above procedure 13 times you will get a note that is just a bit flat of the original A note. So, which one do you call an A? The first one or the second one? You can imagine the difficulties this creates.

posted 11 January 2001 09:59 AM         

Now, let me try (with a bit more mathematics, just for the heck of it).

Tune a string so that it vibrates at a frequency of x. When you fret the string at *exactly* 1/3, and play the part of string that is now 2/3 of the length, you get the string to vibrate at a frequency of (3/2) * x.

(* means multiplication, ^ will mean exponentiation).

This just happens to be a perfect fifth (if the original string were "A", this would be "E"). Continue the process (on a new string tuned to this new note E), and you wind up with a frequency of (3/2)^2 * x, which just happens to be a perfect fifth of E, which is B.

Continue the process unti you get to a frequency of (3/2)^12 * x. Now you are back *almost* to A (though 6 octaves higher). The frequency is approximately 129.7463379 * x.

Now, if you start with the original A note, and go up 6 octaves, the pitch is 2^7 * x, or 128 * x. "Almost" 129.7463379. But not exactly. In fact, the ratio of the frequencies is 1.0136.

Thus, PHYSICALLY, you can't take a cycle of perfect fifths and end up with perfect octaves. And THAT's where Equal Temperament comes in. You adjust the 3/2 ratio to be 128 ^ (1/12), which is "almost" 1.5, but not quite. It's 1.498307077 -- oh, so close!

Now, your octaves are perfect, but not your fifths.

Sounds to me like physics dictates BOTH perfect fifths, and perfect octaves (to get rid of all beats), which can't be done (at least not on a piano). At least not if you're going to play in more than one key.

Now, where's my ibuprofen?

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The Unofficial Photographer of The Wilkinsons

posted 11 January 2001 10:31 AM         

Sounds like you understand it better than I do. Now where's my Prozac?

After reading your post I realize that I guess I was wrong -- the second A note will be slightly sharp, not slightly flat.

In any case, your mathmatical analysis is great -- thanks.

posted 11 January 2001 10:42 AM         

quote:

---

After reading your post I realize that I guess I was wrong -- the second A note will be slightly sharp, not slightly flat.

---

I never would've noticed. But now that you mention it, yep, it would be sharp.

If I could only PLAY as well as I used to be able to do math, I'd be giving Paul Franklin a run for his money! Anybody want to trade some musical ability for a few mathematical theorems ?

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The Unofficial Photographer of The Wilkinsons

[This message was edited by David Pennybaker on 11 January 2001 at 10:43 AM.]

posted 11 January 2001 10:48 AM         

quote:

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By the way could somebody (maybe you, David) explain how notes get their numerical designations?

---

I can give that a try. The "normal" (forgot the technical term at the moment) scale in the key of E is:

E, F#, G#, A, B, C#, D#, E
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8

Note that the intervals are up 2, 2, 1, 2, 2, 2, 1 half-steps.

Note that the 3rd note in the scale is G# (the third), and the fifth note (the fifth) is B.

What I've never understood is why the D# is called the MAJOR 7th, and flatting it to a D is called the 7th. It would seem to me that the D# should be the 7th, with the D being called the minor 7th. Maybe b0b can answer that one. Along with the technical name for the "normal" scale.

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The Unofficial Photographer of The Wilkinsons

[This message was edited by David Pennybaker on 11 January 2001 at 10:50 AM.]

posted 11 January 2001 10:59 AM         

Thanks for the expanation. Actually, I had a feeling that's how it worked. However, I'm still a bit confused -- here's why:

Unless I've got my scales all messed up, when you play a 7th chord, you not only don't add the seventh note of the scale, you add a note that isn't even IN the scale. For example, when you make a G7th chord, you add an F note (I think) which isn't even in a G scale (I think). In any case, I can't figure out what relation the F note in a G scale has to the number "7."

Also, there are 9th chords. There aren't even 9 notes in a scale, are there?

posted 11 January 2001 11:09 AM         

A C9th would be C, E, G, D.

Like I said before, I don't understand why the terminology of the 7ths is the way it is.

And then we can get into why a Cmajor7th (C, E, G, B) is sometimes called Eminor / C.

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The Unofficial Photographer of The Wilkinsons

posted 11 January 2001 11:15 AM         

Now I understand . . . I think.

David, I now see what you mean about the 7ths. If I would have paid more attention to what you said in the first place, I would have been able to answer my own question about the G7th chord.

[This message was edited by Tom Olson on 11 January 2001 at 11:29 AM.]

posted 11 January 2001 12:49 PM         

quote:

---

What I've never understood is why the D# is called the MAJOR 7th, and flatting it to a D is called the 7th. It would seem to me that the D# should be the 7th, with the D being called the minor 7th. Maybe b0b can answer that one. Along with the technical name for the "normal" scale.

---

Now, a basic interval can come in different sizes. That is because the number interval is based on the letters, without regard to sharps and flats.
A B C = 3rd
A B C# = 3rd
A B Cb = 3rd
A B C## = 3rd
2nds, 3rds, 6ths, and 7ths come in major, minor, diminished or augmented sizes, octaves, 4ths and 5ths in perfect, diminished and augmented sizes.
A B C = minor 3rd (3 semitones)
A B C# = major 3rd (4 semitones)
A B C## = augmented 3rd (5 semitones)
A B Cb = diminished 3rd (2 semitones)
(Cb = B in equal temperment)
You can see that, in equal temperment, you can have the exact same interval being called by different names. For example:
A B C## = augmented 3rd
A B C Db = diminished 4th

interval    names
0           perfect unison, diminished 2nd
1           minor 2nd
2           major 2nd, diminished 3rd
3           augmented 2nd, minor 3rd
4           major 3rd, diminished 4th
5           augmented 3rd, perfect 4th
6           augmented 4th, diminished 5th (tritone, "diabola en musica")
7           perfect 5th, diminished 6th
8           augmented 5th, minor 6th
9           major 6th, diminished 7th
10          augmented 6th, minor 7th
11          major 7th, diminished octave
12          augmented 7th, perfect octave
13          augmented octave, minor 9th

So, getting back to the quote, D# is a major 7th above E, so a chord with E G# B D# is called Emaj7. E7, which is often called E dominant 7th, has the minor 7th, D, in it. E7 is not a diatonic chord in the key of E major, because D is not a tone in that key. So, when you play E7 (E G# B D) in the key of E, you're doing one of two things:
1. playing a chromatic (color) note note part of the scale, or
2. borrowing the D natural from the key of A. In E, the progression is often E7 to A, so you can look at this as a temporary modulation to A and the progression as V7 to I in A.

Hope I haven't made any mistakes here. It's too long to proofread!
Cheers,
Alan Shank

posted 11 January 2001 01:14 PM         

quote:

---

A C9th would be C, E, G, D.

Like I said before, I don't understand why the terminology of the 7ths is the way it is.

And then we can get into why a Cmajor7th (C, E, G, B) is sometimes called Eminor / C

---

OR
a minor 7th chord is the same as a 6th chord on a different root. For example:
C Eb G Bb = Cm7th.
Eb G Bb C = E6th.
They can be heard both ways, depending on the note in the bass and the current key.

Or, Cm7b5
C Eb Gb Bb
is also Ab dominant 9th, with the root omitted, resolving to Db (I), like
C - Db (7th degree to tonic)
Eb - Db (2nd degree to tonic)
Gb - F (4th to 3rd)
Bb - Ab (6th to 5th)

Sometimes the same chord can be "spelled" different ways, because in ET a particular size interval (see my other post from today) can have different names. Diminished 7th chords, particularly, because they are made of all minor thirds, can be interpreted with any of the four notes as the root.

posted 11 January 2001 01:58 PM         

C E G B

and:

C E G Bb

is called Cflat7.

Also, it was once told me by a musical theoritician that "Any 7th chord is actually changing keys to the resolved chord". Example:

Bb is not in the C scale but it IS in the F scale, so where does C7 usually evolve to?

posted 11 January 2001 02:57 PM         

quote:

---

... so where does C7 usually evolve to?

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posted 11 January 2001 09:41 PM         

Not in my world. If you can make it work, that's great. Whatever works for you is what is right for you. JI is what does it for me (and most of the current studio rats that sound sooo in tune on records).

Math, schmath--if it sounds out of tune, it's out of tune.

[This message was edited by John Macy on 11 January 2001 at 09:45 PM.]

posted 11 January 2001 11:12 PM         

What are you doing in this thread ? You actually know what you are talking about !

Bob

posted 11 January 2001 11:38 PM         

I should know better...but it's late.

How's the JCH?

Are you going to Dallas?