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Moving towards ET (Page 4)
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The Steel Guitar Forum
Pedal Steel Archive
Moving towards ET (Page 4)
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| This topic is 4 pages long: 1 2 3 4 This topic was originally posted in this forum: Pedal Steel |
| Author | Topic: Moving towards ET |
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Steve Feldman Member Posts: 2983 |
posted 20 January 2001 11:51 AM
Again - I just know enough to be dangerous here, but I've played a little pennywhistle in my time, and you often only PARTIALLY cover a tone hole if you want to get a flatted sound. That's not at all uncommon for pipers, etc. And then there's the reed intonation etc., eh? |
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John Steele Member Posts: 2469 |
posted 20 January 2001 12:25 PM
Steve, yes, but unlike pennywhistles, bagpipes, recorders, etc, the saxophone and clarinet have holes which are not covered by your fingers, but instead by pads. Not much give there. My father, a bagpiper, is often found taping up the edges of the holes on his chanter to correct slight dips in intonation. Bob Hoffnar, you lost me on that one. I've always considered the clarinet to be one of the least-adjustable instruments out there. I know they can change their overall tuning by loosening the barrel joint.. and after a certain point it throws the intonation out. Could you elaborate? I served my time as a dixieland clarinet player, but it's been a few years. Still got my beat-up old selmer axe somewhere though.... -John |
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Bobby Lee Sysop Posts: 14849 |
posted 20 January 2001 03:13 PM
Wasn't that long, sliding gliss in the first line of Gershwin's "Rhapsody In Blue" written for the clarinet? |
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Lee Baucum Member Posts: 3201 |
posted 20 January 2001 03:53 PM
I thought that some of the holes on a clarinet were "open" and were covered only with the finger, no pad. Lee, from South Texas |
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Earnest Bovine Member Posts: 4687 |
posted 20 January 2001 05:56 PM
Right, b0b, Rhapsody In Blue begins with a long glissando for clarinet. The hard part is when you change registers half way thru and close all the holes again. Some guys guys pull it off without a break but I don't know how they do it. It's easy to play any woodwind "in the cracks". It's done more with the embouchure (mouth) than with the keys. |
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Bob Hoffnar Member Posts: 4278 |
posted 21 January 2001 02:21 AM
John, The clarinet has the ability and often the need to adjust its intonation in order to sound in tune with an ensemble. I'm afraid that there is no getting around the basic fact that in order to play in tune you must have the ability to physically manipulate the pitch of the instrument to go along with what your ear says sounds good. [This message was edited by Bob Hoffnar on 21 January 2001 at 02:35 AM.] |
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Bill Stafford Member Posts: 1347 |
posted 21 January 2001 06:24 AM
??????? WOW!! This is neat, lots of info here. I have observed many players tune in all different methods. Then as soon as they put their "heavy" left hand and bar on the strings every string on their guitar came out of tune with their reference point- either slanted or angled or both-and this bar and pressure "touch" would even change as they moved up the fretboard. The mechanics of this instrument, due to the ability to change the notes of each string while playing, is the culprit and we have to just "get-along-with it". We all have different touches, techniques and ears. Practice is the best way to overcome this. |
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Eddie Stephens Member Posts: 47 |
posted 26 January 2001 11:00 PM
Great subject... IMO, I can think of none better than Paul Franklin to set the example of playing in tune and really fitting in the mix. I have been a fan of Pauls forever and would love to know what, if any adjustments he has made along the way from the time he put out his instructional tape of tuning. Another issue that was not touched upon in depth is the issue of harmonics and overtones from other instruments in a live playing situation. I know that as someone else mentioned in this post, a guitar players grip can affect tuning greatly. Also effects such as a chorus set too wide can cause problems. Bass guitar can actually wash or cancel if you will, notes you play if he is sharing space with you on stage. Drums not tuned correctly can cause severe overtones with bass or other instruments. Singers with not such great pitch tend to lead you into no mans land. In general, it is not a perfect world. Never will be. I tune JI adjusted slightly toward ET. I can play along with Artist CD's, and feel comfortable that I am real close to being in tune with almost any track. Live is another animal. I have learned that one thing that can greatly effect your tuning playing live, is playing dominantly when it is your turn. Playing a little more agressively will usually sit you up more in the mix. Your parts will not be washed out as easily or mixed up with a bunch of other overtones. The bottom line though, if the other dominant parts of the band are not in tune, you never will be with them. |
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Steve Sycamore Member Posts: 22 |
posted 28 January 2001 10:32 AM
Just a couple more thoughts on the subject. Maybe players in general are too sensitive about being in-tune. The combination of JI and ET can sound very beautiful, especially electronic instruments. You need to avoid playing in the same octave, which you should do for other reasons too. You also need a generous amount of ambience. When you listen to a good symphonic string section playing with a grand piano, you can bet the string players are playing closer to JI. The dispersion of frequences adds a great deal of richness and the violinists probably aren't complaining about being out of tune. One can always turn up the reverb of one's amp or use a stereo system if things start sounding a little off. Steel just doesn't sound like steel to me in ET. But on the other hand I know that there are many other positions on the neck that can play a major scale than the pedals up and the pedals down position. I general don't use them so much. They don't sound like they're the in the same key to me because the interval relationships are skewed. So, I'm generating my own temperments in addition to JI that take many of the good features of JI but makes it more generally useful, much as Young, Kirnberger, Kellner and Werckmeister did. But using modern tools and modern ideas about what perfect characteristics are in a temperment. I'll post one or more when they're ready in addition to the one I've already posted (and am about to update now). |
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John Sims Member Posts: 342 |
posted 21 May 2001 12:44 PM
JEEZ! IF THIS IS WHAT IT AKES TO LEARN TO TUNE...i quit! ------------------ John Steelin' is a way of life! My PSG website-Carter SD-12-U, 8p/5k, Nashville 1000 |
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