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High G on C6? (Page 2)
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The Steel Guitar Forum
Pedal Steel Archive
High G on C6? (Page 2)
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| This topic is 2 pages long: 1 2 This topic was originally posted in this forum: Pedal Steel |
| Author | Topic: High G on C6? |
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Matt Dawson Member Posts: 226 |
posted 05 February 2001 04:02 AM
I recently did a session where the whole verse of the song was a C Maj7 to F Maj7 change. I took off the top string and replaced it with the high G to get big chords on open strings and harmonics.I cant believe in 15 years I never tried it before. I FAR prefer the G and will stick with it. Why did it go out of fashion? Matt |
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Bill Stafford Member Posts: 1347 |
posted 05 February 2001 04:53 AM
Hi Matt, When I received my first double 12 E9/C6 guitar in 1973 I installed that high G you are talking about as my 2nd string above the standard C6 notes and then even added a higher A on top of that as my new string one. When I figured out that I could pull the "old" string ten on a "standard E9" tuning to the D note, which was the "old" string no. 9, I took off the D(string 9), put the tenth string B in its position, pulled it to a D with the same lever that lowerw my Eb to D at the top of the tuning. That removed the D note out of the A6 chord when I depressed pedals A and B. Then, even though the old string G# was in the E9 tuning (3rd) string, I added a high G# as my new string no.one. (So, my first and fourth strings are now G#). On the first fret of this tuning with the Eb lever held in gave me my "old" C6 with the high A on top of the high G you are talking about. Talking about big fat chord available now in both the B and E tunings!!! And when you have the A and B pedals and Eb lever engaged all the 7th 9th, 11ths, 12ths fall in place. Glad you are seeing this. Really works. Think about it. Good luck and have fun. |
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Bill Stafford Member Posts: 1347 |
posted 05 February 2001 04:56 AM
Was in a hurry, meant 13th vice 12. lol Who ever heard of such a thing. PS: that is what gave me my 14 string tuning and I just bottomed out the chord structure with E , B and a 080 ga E. Fat, fat chords in both tunings now. |
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Jeff Lampert Member Posts: 2636 |
posted 05 February 2001 06:04 AM
My understanding is that it went out of fashion because having the high D there allowed you the 2nd (9th) note of the scale, which wasn't available unless you moved 2 frets or used pedal 7. By having it there, you could use the "D" note in fast picking runs. Also, by having the "D" note, many chords were easier to attain, and didn't require the use of two feet, such as the D13 chord which used to require pedals 5 and 7, but now could be played with just pedal 5, using the 1st string "D". To make up for the loss of the G, many players have used a 3rd string 1/2 tone raise, and play the higher voiced chord 3 frets up, meaning a C chord with a high G could be played on fret 3 with that raise. Of couse, it isn't as effective because the surrounding strings and pedals won't give you the same opportunities, but then everything is a compromise. [This message was edited by Jeff Lampert on 05 February 2001 at 10:14 AM.] |
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Jack Stoner Sysop Posts: 8119 |
posted 05 February 2001 06:05 AM
The high G string has never really went out of fashion. Judging from a poll that was done here on the forum there are a lot of us that still use it. I was at a recent Herby Wallace semminar and he mentioned he still uses the high G. There are also many that use the D string, which has been attributed to Buddy Emmons. I've tried the D several times and go back to the G. For my style it is better. However, if I was just starting on C6th I would probably go with the D. An 11 string C6th is a something I've thought about several times then you could have both the G and D. |
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Jim Smith Member Posts: 6399 |
posted 05 February 2001 06:27 AM
I have both the G and D on my D-12 C6. The first 5 strings are F, D, G, E, C. The Universal 12 tuning also gives you both notes but 1/2 tone lower than C6. 1st string F# = G, 2nd string lowered to C# = D. ------------------ |
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Jeff Lampert Member Posts: 2636 |
posted 05 February 2001 07:08 AM
I have an 11-string C6 on my D-10 just for that reason. Zumsteel will custom make an 11-string C6 neck for either nominal or no extra charge. Others may as well. |
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Bobby Lee Sysop Posts: 14849 |
posted 05 February 2001 08:15 AM
If you have a lever that raises your high C to C#, you get the same inversion as an A chord with the 5th on top. It's a little darker, but it's actually a bit more authentic sounding for old time Western swing. A6th was a very popular tuning before pedals. |
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C Dixon Member Posts: 5912 |
posted 05 February 2001 09:18 AM
For a long time 99% of D-10's had a G as the first string. I believe it was Buddy who put the D there first. And of course the reason is obvious. It does fit in the scale pattern just like the F# on the first string fits E9th. It also fits very nicely with the 5th and 6th pedals. And by lowering it to an Eb with the 8th pedal, one gets yet another Jazz voicing as BE does. However that G fits a lot of times too. But I have to agree it is a thin sounding string and not at all the timber that C6th tends to project. Also, and has been stated, you can move up 3 frets and get that 3 note major chord, if you pull the 3rd string to a C#. Buddy does this as do a lot of others who have the D on top. The best of both worlds is to have both of course. This requires at least 11 strings though, which D-10's don't have. U-12'rs and Extended E9th'rs can have both worlds by lowering the 2nd string D# to a C# with a knee lever that can be engaged when the E's are lowered. Some, like Jeff Newman, lower it WITH the lever that lowers the E's. I tried this and it makes that knee lever much much too stiff for my tastes. But he seems to have NO problem with it. One thing for sure; as the PSG evolves, the need for scale notes to be AT the fret location looms ever higher. "And where it stops, nobody knows"! God bless you all, carl |
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Matt Dawson Member Posts: 226 |
posted 05 February 2001 09:23 AM
Thanks for the replies. the '11th' string to get G & D, sounds interesting. I dont really do those 'banjo style' rolls on C6 but having both notes would be nice. Matt |
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Don McClellan Member Posts: 882 |
posted 05 February 2001 09:25 AM
One of the nice things about the universal tuning is that you get both the F# and C# (G and D). They are both very useful. An 11 string C6th is a good idea. |
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Rick Schmidt Member Posts: 1596 |
posted 05 February 2001 09:37 AM
One thing that I love about the high G on C6 is the G-G# raise on pedal 5. It took me years to figure out that I can't live without it. One question: What string did B.E. have on top of his C6 on the "Black Album"? |
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Ernie Renn Member Posts: 2657 |
posted 05 February 2001 10:08 AM
Rick; For the black album Buddy had a G. When it was recorded he was already using the D on top, but said that he had written and worked out some of the tunes prior to the change, so went back to it for the LP. I might be mistaken, but I think there are a few passages that use the D. ------------------ |
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Jeff Lampert Member Posts: 2636 |
posted 05 February 2001 10:12 AM
quote: Rick, |
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Rick Schmidt Member Posts: 1596 |
posted 05 February 2001 01:07 PM
Geez Jeff...where do I begin? My overall feeling about that change is the various cool dissonant sounds it has when used with the traditional pedal 4, pedal 6, and the KL that lowers the C-B....also there's some cool Maj7 sounds with the KL that raises the C-C#. I tend to use all those various pedal combinations on the top groups of 4 strings i.e. 1-4,2-5,etc. as upper partial compound chords over different bass notes & pedal points. For some reason in my playing, I use that (modal) approach with those string and pedal combinations more than I do with the traditional grips and lower string chords on C6. When I'm sticking closer to the actual progression, I tend to stay in the middle and lower string groups. Granted most of the chords I'm talking about here are VERY dissonant sounding, but to my ears theyre quite pleasing. Alot of closely voiced alt7, 13b9, yada yada yada. The pedal 5 used with the C-B change is also great for quartal (4th based) stuff ala "In a Silent Way" (Miles Davis) BTW my 2nd steel is a D12, so I fully see the value of the high D also...but any 10 string axe that I'd ever have would have to keep the high G. Wish I had the tabbing skills & patience in general that some of you guys have. You guys are awesome!!! |
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Earnest Bovine Member Posts: 4687 |
posted 05 February 2001 01:55 PM
For "Pedal 5" and high G string, I prefer G-> F#, just like the pull an octave lower. |
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C Dixon Member Posts: 5912 |
posted 05 February 2001 03:01 PM
So do I Ernest. I have it on my U-12 lowering the first string to an F. And I use that a lot more than I used to when it raised the string a half tone. carl |
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Gene Jones Member Posts: 5796 |
posted 05 February 2001 03:14 PM
With the D on top, Pedal 6 and up 2 frets gives you a G and E on the top two strings (of course they are reversed, but who cares) ...sounds the same as the top two string with a G...then both are available. |
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Al Marcus Member Posts: 7471 |
posted 05 February 2001 09:41 PM
Junior Knight had that high G dropped to F# too on his C6 tuning. Flatted fifth. Works good with C to B lever. The high G to G# on pedal 5 gives a very nice augmented 7th chord. Here is how he got the D in there, Lowering the 2nd string E to D a whole tone on a knee lever. (Reece used that change 32 years ago on his Bb6 tuning. Dropping the 3rd note(not the 3rd string) a whole tone from D to C.) That with the C to B lower gets your E9 A and B pedals and the Hi G to F# is like your Eb lever on E9. Lots of stuff there. So you can have both your G and your D that way....al [This message was edited by Al Marcus on 05 February 2001 at 09:50 PM.] |
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Bobby Bowman Member Posts: 1271 |
posted 06 February 2001 09:20 AM
To add to what Gene Jones posted,,,If you have a "D" as the 1'st string, you probably should raise both 3 and 7 a half tone on the same lever. Using this lever with pedal 5 and adding pedal 6, then pedal 6 becomes exactly what pedal 5 does with the G to G# on top of a C-6 tuning except you're starting on string two and will miss the very bottom notes of the traditional 5'th pedal. It's mostly a matter of personal likes and taste and there are pluses and minuses either way you go. BB ------------------ |
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