posted 29 September 2001 06:40 PM         

wow!

the ease with which one can go back and forth between tunings (worlds!) is truly phenomenal.

given that the footprint is smaller, the thing is lighter (and more comfortable), strings are cheaper, and you have both tunings at your immediate disposal, why WOULD anyone want to stay with double-10's?

go ahead... knock the wind out of my sails! 8-)

posted 29 September 2001 07:09 PM         

quote:

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why WOULD anyone want to stay with double-10's?

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posted 29 September 2001 10:29 PM         

quote:

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why WOULD anyone want to stay with double-10's?

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Since you asked,...

1. 80% or more of players play a D-10. With a few notable exceptions, all the icons play the D-10, including Emmons, Chalker, Jernigan, Day, Franklin, Hughey, Rugg, Charleton, White, et. al. Once you get past the icons to the next level of lesser known but monster players, almost all of them play the D-10 as well. So, you would be in the best of company.

2. The D-10 has been the world-wide standard for 40+ years.

3. Virtually all tab is written for the D-10. While it can be translated, that is an additional encumbrance imposed on an already difficult instrument.

4. Just like the U-12, there is unlimited capabilities to play any genre or style of music.

5. When you change a pedal on one neck, it does not impact the other. This is an invaluable feature of the D-10.

6. Some players feel it is very useful to have a backup neck in case you break a string.

7. It looks better.

8. Did I say that with a few exceptions, all the notable players play a D-10. Why would you NOT play the same arrangement as Emmons, Chalker, Jernigan, Hughey, and White?? There is just no contest here.

9. Band-leaders with potential gigs often ask if you play C6. A new gig is tough enough without having to convince people that you can play C6 type stuff on a Universal.

10. A good friend and great player from Texas tells me that of the couple of hundred players he has seen where he lives and plays, only ONE he recalls played a Universal tuning. Even if it was a few, that’s still miniscule. He does acknowledge that many players with D-10 guitars can’t play C6. But they still own the D-10.

11. Even though there is a philosophical advantage to having the two sets of pedal/knee lever pulls from both necks available on one set of strings, in actual practice, it is very hard to play the C6 neck in the same contexts as if the neck was separate. You certainly can play other great stuff with jazz and swing stylings, and work around the limitations, but if you want to play C6, you aren’t going to play it on the U-12 (unless you have a knee lever lock, but then you’re not playing the Universal, so what’s the point.) Another way of saying it is, when you play a Universal tuning, you play THAT tuning, and not a C6. However, with respect to E9, the Universal does offer far greater bass range, at the expense of not having the low D note. So again, if you are a hard-core E9 player, and players like Lloyd Green are your heroes, you may not like the idea of using a knee lever for the D note, since the open D note IS part of the E9 tuning.

[This message was edited by Jeff Lampert on 29 September 2001 at 10:32 PM.]

posted 30 September 2001 04:52 AM         

Even the biggest "biggie", the Big E, has stated on this forum that were he starting out today he would give some kind of universal (if not the current "standard" U12) tuning SERIOUS consideration, but that he will stay with D10 because he is so used to it (hell he practically INVENTED it)

there are indeed advantages/disadvantages to both.

"Different Strokes for Different Folks"- sometimes cliche's become cliche' because they are true.

"It's just music. It's playing clean and looking for the pretty notes."-Charles Parker

------------------
"I AM ZUMBODY!"

Zumsteel U12 "Loafer" 8&6 :: Fender T-8 Stringmaster :: Fender Tube Amplification
www.voicenet.com/~vanallen/ :: vanallen@voicenet.com :: www.lasttrainhome.com

posted 30 September 2001 10:42 AM         

quote:

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I could easily enough debate statements like "it's the thinking man's tuning" and "Emmons said he would give a U-12 serious consideration if he was starting out" since these are flawed points

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quote:

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Buddy Emmons
Member
From: Hermitage, TN USA
posted 10 March 2000 07:43 AM
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If I were to start today, the U12 would probably be my choice, but I'm not sure I would go with the universal tuning as we know it, not that I don't think it's a good way to go. When there are great players like Jeff Newman and Maurice Anderson, who have proven the viability of the U12, it would be foolish of me to suggest that it wouldn't be a good choice. But I think I would choose an alternate route that would cover the E9th and offer room to add and not take away from the sound.
It's no sin to not play the C6 tuning. Jay Dee told me he knew enough about the C6 tuning to fill a thimble, and I'm sure Lloyd.Green wouldn't hesitate to say as much in a different way. Yet it has never kept Jay Dee or Lloyd from being acknowledged as two of the finest players ever to have played the instrument.

So if I were starting out today and career minded, I'd probably go with a 13th tuning that would cover country, western swing, and with a little manipulation, jazz. That and a little musical training should get you through any studio job you'd ever have to tackle. Of course if you had limited musical training, you could flounder around until you're 63 and then start spouting out advice.

For pedals and knees, I would have eight on the floor and eight knees. Five of the eight knees (rights, lefts, and one vertical) would be the same as my E9th. They would also change some of the same strings I change on the C6 tuning of my D10. That would leave three remaining knee levers (LL, V, and LR) that would be positioned in the middle of the guitar as they are on my D10 (except there is no middle vertical on my D10). Pedals one through four, and five knees, would work the E13 tuning. Pedals five through eight, and five knees, would be for the E6th.

But I'm not starting out today, so the single twelve I have is leaning toward the C6 tuning again. I use two of the pedals for a whole tone raise of the G (5) and a half tone raise for the Es (2 & 6). I've been slipping some E9th style bends on some jazz tunes and it sounds pretty cool. I don't know where it will take me but it's different, which in turn makes me sound a little different, and I could use some of that.

When all is said and done though, the money is still in the gliss sound using one to three notes, and mostly on the top of the tuning; and for that, you can get by with eight strings or less and a creative mind. Long live Jerry Byrd!

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quote:

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But I'm at a stage where I no longer want to split my time between two tunings. I have a 12 string Sierra devoted to the C6 tuning and a 12 string Carter on order that will have an E13th. When I receive my Carter, the following six months will be a period of discovery for me, which after then, I should know which way I want to go.

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posted 30 September 2001 12:33 PM         

Gotta love the knee levers all in-line, the rubber tube encased rods.

I definitely have the best of both worlds, AND I am only into it by a year. I am very glad I started with it.

I gotta say tho that the D-10 is surely a sexy looking thang.

------------------
Bill Fulbright
1998 Sierra U12 7x5; Gibson ES-165; Peavey 50-410
ICQ# 2251620 Bill's Launch Pad

posted 30 September 2001 12:50 PM         

I vastly prefer the D10 and I am not remotely interested in emulating anybody.

main reasons:
1) Tone
2) Intonation (less compromise)
3) more options (I can change something on my C neck without screwing up something on my E neck)
4) Simplicity ( It is easyer for my to look at a C neck and hear my available options than with the U12)

The U12 works great for some guys and I am all for it. For me it was a waste of time.

posted 30 September 2001 08:05 PM         

Now Buddy Emmons has come up with the newest latest Universal tuning. As he has said it is E9-E13-E6. I think it is great. It's all the SAME bar postions, (you won't get lost).

E6 is pretty much like C6, and E9 is E9.

Here is the tuning that BE is Experimenting
with.

[/tab]
F#
D#
G#
E
C#
B
G#
F#
E
C#
B
A
[tab]

Just look how close it is to E9,but you can play C6 pedals with it too, only it will be E6.
I can explain all the pedals , etc, and what they do, but will have to do it another day.

posted 30 September 2001 11:18 PM         

thanks for all the responses... let me respond in kind:

1. 'looks cooler' - well, that's a matter of taste. i think universals look really cool, and some of the keyless universals look even cooler (mcclellan has a really cool klein, for example).

2. 'looks cooler, part II' - uh... no one really talked much about the weight. having spent years and years lugging bass rigs and p.a. systems (just because i'm a also an engineer with a recording studio and p.a., they expect me to do sound!!!), i am SO RELIEVED to drop 20 lbs just by switching to a universal.

3. 'the grandfather clause' - just as i thought, the biggest reason is that people have been playing d10's for years, love their guitars, and don't feel the need to switch.

4. 'me and buddy emmons' - well, i thought it would be kind of cool to have me and buddy mentioned in the same paragraph... but seriously, to suggest in any way what buddy might or might do as being in any way related to anything affecting my steel playing is just absurd. maybe in a couple of hundred years, but the bottom line important thing is to LOVE THE STEEL, and PLAY IT EVERY DAY... no matter what level you're at, and no matter which configuration you prefer.

am i right?

posted 30 September 2001 11:40 PM         

quote:

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Short of Buddy or Junior Knight, Ive never heard anyone play a !2 string, be it single or double, and get the separation of tone in the tuning that you get with a D-10. The difference in body mass,pickup length etc are critical factors in tone.

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posted 01 October 2001 08:44 AM         

I got frustrated once and checked out D10's and D12's.
Seemed like everything I thought was a hassle on S12U was twice the hassle on D10.

I had to throw a "neck selector" switch before switching to the other tuning (what's this "both necks on" position for, one Doug Jernigan ballad?).

Then I actually had to reorient myself ergonomically to play the other neck (so now I gotta mess with my mic stand every time I switch necks?! )

And switch to a new left knee lever "stall" cuz it's a 8x8, uh, make that 3x5 E9 and 5x5 C6th, of course there is no standard attached to this tradition, but if you want to be like everybody else...

I lost having both D and G on top (let me get this straight, now I have to go up three frets and hold a lever over to get that note back, you gotta be kiddin' me?! You can say that with a straight face and still dis S12U?)

I gotta buy/change/tune 40% more strings.

Tuning an S12U?! Uh Oh... Don't let the Booger Man get ya!

"Cuz He'll Getcha" ~John Fogarty~

2 changers on one guitar? Yubba Dubba Do?!

No low end whatsoever on E9th? Well it's definatly gotta be a D12 then.

I fly several times a year, what?!...
It's over 70lbs in a road case?$$$!!

I addition to all this, the best S12U players in the biz were former D10 players who made the switch!

Then a friend reminded me...
"You know what they say about musicians who Blame The Instrument..."

Point well taken!

It's great to live in a time and place where we can all play whatever we want to play, aint it!!!!

My S12U tuning is a combo of ideas taken from Bb6th, E9/B6, E9 ext, Bill Staffords S14U, D10, and my own preference of lever/pedal function and placement.

It's born of multiple traditions and desire for individualism fueled by freedom of choice.
Sound familiar?

Steel On!!!
-pete

[This message was edited by Pete Burak on 01 October 2001 at 10:41 AM.]

posted 02 October 2001 11:12 AM         

quote:

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'cause C6th has a "fatter" sounds

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I honestly believe that the VAST majority of D-10 players who argue against a single neck tuning, or a 12-string guitar have NEVER OWNED ONE. I know there are exceptions, but I suspect that they are few and far between.

------------------
Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2000 Fessenden S-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Emmons D-10 9x9, 1971 Dobro

[This message was edited by Larry Bell on 02 October 2001 at 01:30 PM.]

posted 02 October 2001 06:22 PM         

quote:

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The E13 does seem to be the most viable way to go for a 12 string setup, but as he said, it does lean towards the E9.

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quote:

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At this point, I'm toying with a D 6/9 tuning that takes some of the mush out of my C6 sound and thickens the E9 sound. When I say mush, I'm going by the tone I get on the C6 neck, which is a little less defined in the mid-range than other C6 players. I've worked with a D tuning before on some Clinton Gregory cuts but only in the studio, so I don't know how spontaneous I would be on a D tuning in the heat of a battle. If I don't like it, I'll probably end up in E6/9 with all the E9 changes and as many of the C6 as the setup will allow. It should be a good commercial studio tuning, in the event I want to get into the studio and become commercial.

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quote:

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Like anyone else, I have a sound in my head that I respond to best when I play. I've found that most guitars are of a caliber that allows you to find a suitable similarity of that sound through both electronics and hand control. The minus side is having to fight for something that should flow naturally. On the other hand, I'm not quite as finicky with the C6 tuning as I am the E9th, so it's not as much of a chore honing in on a swing tone to my liking. Because of that, I feel comfortable playing swing style on just about any guitar.

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posted 06 October 2001 03:31 PM         

I play a S12U because:

A. After about three years, it got too easy.
B. I just don't know any better.
C. All the same reasons mentioned by everyone else who plays one.

If I get worse tone and intonation, I'll deal with it. Think of all the players who don't play a D-10 and sound GREAT! Jerry Byrd, Tommy Morrell, Maurice Anderson, Cindy Cashdollar, Lloyd Green, Sneaky Pete Kleinow. Each of these players plays a different type guitar. All sound wonderful to me.

If Lloyd Green isn't commercial enough sounding, if his tone isn't sufficiently rich, sweet or "authentic" enough for PSG purists, then nobody's is. Check out his video with Tommy White and tell me you can hear the difference in the tone of the two guitars onstage. (Tommy plays a D-10.) Or intonation? Get a life! If Lloyd has a cabinet drop problem, he covers it up mighty well.

I'm not on a soap box for any type guitar. If your thing is honky-tonk bar band country music, get an Emmons D-10, yer all set.

This argument reminds me of the Mac vs. PC feud I hear among computer users.

My advice: Don't listen to the zealots. Play what works for you. As with so many other things, here is no "right" guitar.

--JR

posted 07 October 2001 01:55 PM         

------------------
Lee, from South Texas

[This message was edited by Lee Baucum on 07 October 2001 at 01:57 PM.]

posted 07 October 2001 05:43 PM         

I've heard flunkies with 24 strings, and true artists with only 6. Hackers with 16 pedals, and "burn 'em up" pickers with only 5 pedals.

posted 07 October 2001 08:02 PM         

That said, these great players whom we all love started playing before the S12U was around. If they're a little younger (P. Franklin comes to mind) they still probably had a D-10 to start out on and stuck with it. And, I agree, there is absolutely no reason to tinker with what works.

But having heard some pretty impressive music done on the Universal, I had to try it and it worked for me. My setup is a little diffent too, I pull E to F# on a knee lever. I used to worry that I was weird and out of synch with the rest of the world, but I've done it so long, I'm not gonna change. So I see why guys like Lloyd Green stick with their setups. The same applies to the loyal D-10 pickers. Why mess with what works? (Buddy E. could name a couple of reasons, no?)

The commercial country music world is in such a wierd state these days, we may not see another studio player come along for awhile, let alone anyone using anything different--you hear so little PSG on top 40 radio anyway. Therefore, there may not be a S12U hotshot come and challenge the "system" for a while.

But I find fascinating the Junior Browns, the Sneaky Petes, as well as the John Hughys, Doug Jernigans and other heroes of mine. They all fit in the pantheon of innovators and make me feel terribly insecure from time to time.