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  historical ?: Origin of the Country Shuffle???

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Author Topic:   historical ?: Origin of the Country Shuffle???
Dave Van Allen
Member

From: Doylestown, PA , US , Earth

posted 05 November 2001 09:43 AM     profile     
here's a question for the geezers and musicologists in the group...

The classic "4 on the floor" shuffle with a back beat, walkin bass, (rosin laden twin fiddles, and steel)so closely associated with Ray Price...is so much a part of classic country music that I never thought to ask before:

What was the FIRST recorded example of this style? What artist/lable/date?

there had to have been, like "Slowly" with pedal steel, a breakthrough recording in this style... what was it? Was it Price?
Did Ray and crew CREATE or did they just CODIFY and CANONIZE?


This should be good for a go-round...

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"I AM ZUMBODY!"

Zumsteel U12 "Loafer" 8&6 :: Fender T-8 Stringmaster :: Fender Tube Amplification
www.voicenet.com/~vanallen/ :: vanallen@voicenet.com :: www.lasttrainhome.com

Jack Stoner
Sysop

From: Inverness, Florida

posted 05 November 2001 10:39 AM     profile     
I associate myself with the "geezers" and the "D.O.M." I don't recall ever hearing a recording with it until Ray Price did it. There were probably others but that was when it became apparent.

Sort of like Slowly, there was pedals before that and even some recordings with it, just that one happened to be the one that got everyones attention.

Ray Jenkins
Member

From: Gold Canyon Az. Pinal U.S.A.

posted 05 November 2001 12:38 PM     profile     
All I've ever heard is,that Ray Price introduced the 4/4 walking bass and it became known as a part of "Texas Music".Best bet is maybe, Herb Steiner or Jason Odd will post on this one.
Ray
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Steeling is still legal in Arizona

[This message was edited by Ray Jenkins on 05 November 2001 at 12:39 PM.]

Chris Schlotzhauer
Member

From: Colleyville, Tx. USA

posted 05 November 2001 01:43 PM     profile     
Would Wynn Stewart have been one of the first?
Jack Stoner
Sysop

From: Inverness, Florida

posted 05 November 2001 02:41 PM     profile     
Wynn Stewart?? I've been working with a singer for 4 years that does a lot of Wynn Stewart and all he wants is the 1/5 on the bass.

But he keeps telling me to do the Ralph Mooney licks

Eddie Lange
Member

From: Joelton, Tennessee

posted 05 November 2001 04:07 PM     profile     
The origin, so as I have heard the story from the great Buddy Harman in an interview, is that they came into the studio to cut with a new young artist, "they" as in a lot of the greats...Jimmy Day, Tommy Jackson, Bob Moore, etc. Anyway, this ole boy was from Texas and loved the swing sound of Bob Wills and the honky tonk sound of Hank Williams. This wasn't his first big record ever, but he wanted to put the two sounds together. Well, they did and the rest is history. The song.... Crazy Arms, the artist... Ray Price.

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The Young Steelkid

Dave Van Allen
Member

From: Doylestown, PA , US , Earth

posted 05 November 2001 07:13 PM     profile     
Does "Crazy Arms" (co written by Mooney BTW) qualify, as originally recorded by Price?? it seems to be very 2-beat on the record, (although almost every one I ever played it with does it as a shuffle...)

I know "Kissin' your picture" sure qualifies. can somebody with the Bear family box set tell me when each of those was recorded?

Eddie Lange
Member

From: Joelton, Tennessee

posted 05 November 2001 07:55 PM     profile     
Dave, the discrepancy on Crazy Arms is that the piano (mixed in the forefront) is playing 2, but the bass is walking. This style, piano 2 bass 4, was done quite often, I believe, throughout the early days. The classic 4 piano, 4 bass feel came later in the 60's i.e. Way to Survive, Touch My Heart, even Nashville Sound stuff like Hello Walls and Charlie's Shoes.

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The Young Steelkid

Jussi Huhtakangas
Member

From: Helsinki, Finland

posted 06 November 2001 12:52 AM     profile     
In a Bear Family Ray Price box set each session is discussed and Crazy Arms being mentioned as a song, that started "the shuffle era" in -56. At least it was the first hit and I can't recall a "shuffle", that would predate it. According to Ray, the arrangement wasn't an accident, but carefully thought of, and after the session everyone thought it was "real funny, different, but had a hit written on it" Compared to the later ones, the shuffle beat on Crazy Arms is subtle, but it is there.
Jussi
Jason Odd
Member

From: Melbourne, Victoria, Australia

posted 08 November 2001 06:50 AM     profile     
Jussi, I'm going with you on this one, and I think the case has been made with a few other comments here.
Personally I look at it this way, in '54 Price make a concious move away from the 'Drifting Cowboys' sound by hiring the core of the Western Cherokees as the Cherokee Cowboys, I feel that the live group helped him devise a new sound, but the studio version had a little way before it caught up. It would be interesting to hear some of those transcriptions through 1954-1956 and see the changes in the sound.
Jussi Huhtakangas
Member

From: Helsinki, Finland

posted 08 November 2001 10:56 PM     profile     
Jason, if you already haven't got'em, try to get your hands on those Gannaway videos. They were filmed between 54-57, and on those you can not just hear, but also see the change in Ray's music and in his band. All the steel players of the era are featured; Don Helms, Jimmy Biggar, Jimmy Day, Jack Evins. In my opinion these films are the steel guitar ( and classic c&w ) heaven: filmed in 16mm color, the sound is great, musicians are in their prime, beautiful guitars, flashy nudie suits. A true glimpse of how cool Nashville c&w was in those days. And it's not just Ray, everybody's there; you can see Big E tearin up on his Bigsby with Jimmy Dickens, Johnny Siebert on every Carl Smith song, Chet, Billy Byrd, even some rare rab stuff by Jimmy and Johnny, and too many to mention here. There used to be a website selling these videos, but I was unable to find it now. They have been out several times since mid 80's and at least the special Chet/Webb Pierce(Sonny Burnette on steel) compilation is out as a DVD.
Jussi
Dave Van Allen
Member

From: Doylestown, PA , US , Earth

posted 09 November 2001 06:19 AM     profile     
I cannot reccomend the Gannaway material highly enough.

This is "the real deal" ! Incredible steel guitar just at the transition to pedals, in original not colorized color, LIVE performances

some of the material is on Shanachie, but highly edited.

the rest... well it was available at one time, but whoever has the rights to this stuff has not the sense of the true musicological import of what they have... the first set of 12 videos was great... almost complete, only marginally edited shows. the second set was BOTCHED .
but the PERFORMANCES are still indeed great

here is an example of the image quality:

this is a screenshot from one of the shows. Emmons was NOT playing with Price but with Dickens, was just watching his future emplyer perform; out of camera range was Jack "Curly" Evans playing for Ray...

great stuff

Dicky Overby
unregistered
posted 09 November 2001 03:01 PM           

Hello Everybody,
I could be wrong, but the first time I
remember hearing the shuffle was on Ray Price's record of "Heartaches by the Number"
Jimmy Day on steel and Tommy Jackson on fiddle.
By the way we are still playing this suff
out here in the Texas Hill Country.
Come pick with us.

Dicky Overbey
Bandera, Texas

Andy Volk
Member

From: Boston, MA

posted 10 November 2001 07:12 AM     profile     
Where can one buy the Gannaway videos?
Jason Odd
Member

From: Melbourne, Victoria, Australia

posted 11 November 2001 09:16 AM     profile     
Like Andy said, I thought they were onky out as bootlegs, at least it seems that there are legit copies out there now, too cool.
Dave Van Allen
Member

From: Doylestown, PA , US , Earth

posted 11 November 2001 11:36 AM     profile     
mid 1950's (54-57 or so) entrepreneur AL Gannaway went to Nashville and shot 2-camera COLOR film in Bradleys Barn ,I think, of the Opry stars of the day in performance. 15 minute shows in the format of a Host (Faron Young, Ernest Tubb, Marty Robbins, Carl SMith, Webb Pierce...et al) performing a tune then introducing another star of the day (Kitty Wells, Johnny & Jack,Moon Mullican ,Jimmy DIckens) then a comedy bit (Minnie Pearl, Rod Brasfield, and June Carter and others) then the Worlds Champion Carolina CLoggers dancing to a Tommy Jackson fiddle tune..then the host doing another number, the guest artist or another guest doing a number, then the cloggers dancing the outro. I do not know where or when these show originally aired.
Part and parcel with these performances are incredible footage at the cusp of non-pedal transition to pedal steel: the YOUNG Buddy Emmons burning it up with Dickens, the YOUNG Jimmy Day with Jim Reeves, both BE & JD playing Bigsbys. Johnny Sibert on Fender Stringmaster with Carl Smith, SHot Jackson on Dobro with Kitty...great performances on fiddle, guitar (Billy Byrd with ET, Atkins in his prime... fabulous IMPORTANT stuff to those of us with a historical bent...

In the early 80's they used to show the Gannaway shows from the 50's on a Public TV (!)station out of Hagerstown MD- I lived in Gaithersburg MD at the time and the reception sucked and I didn't have a VCR, but I fell in love with the material...always wanted to own some..then

Back around 1996 the Gannaway films were being marketed as "Memories: Grand Ole Opry Stars of the 50's" in sets of 12 videos, each with 4 of the original shows (marginally edited) per tape, as a set called the "Great 48", with hints at another set of 48 making 96 shows available. My wife got me the first set for Christmas around 1997, which were indeed the original shows in almost their entirety, but no chronolgical data.
about this same time, Shanachie video put out three tapes of the Gannaway material, sorted and edited by artist: Jim Reeves/Ray Price on one, Marty Robbins/Ernest Tubb on another, and Webb Pierce/Chet Atkins on the third.
Quality was great, but the context was lost...

A few years later the company my wife bought the first set from called to sell her the next set... in the intervening period, whoever's job it was to keep $hit together at Gannaway legacy productions apparently left. the second set was a bitter disapointment...edited, incomplete shows, intercut with crap from the disco era of Nashville stars... I dunno who or what happenned....

All web sites and phone numbers relating to the mid 90's issue of the "Great 48" are now defunct. Tha Shanachie tapes are still available at the link above.

My Fervent hope is that someone with some sense gets control of this material and archives it in a chronological/musicological fashion, and makes it available again.

Just the other night I pulled out one of the tapes I hadn't watched in it's entirety yet... & got the treat of the month: a performance by Jimmy DIckens with BE taking a hot solo in the middle... Buddy is SO YOUNG- he looks like he just got off the school bus with Wally and the Beaver... can't be over 18...
what a treasure this video is....

Paul Graupp
Member

From: Macon Ga USA

posted 11 November 2001 11:58 AM     profile     
Dave; My sincerest Thanks for a wonderful Topic and the great follow up by everyone contributing. I have really enjoyed it !!

Regards, Paul

Herb Steiner
Member

From: Cedar Valley, Travis County TX

posted 11 November 2001 02:37 PM     profile     
Re: the original question... If Dickey Overby says "Heartaches By the Number" was the first shuffle, I personally would take his word for it. Unless it contradicted Big E, then I would take his word for it.

I wish I could call up Jimmy and ask him, like I used to do so many, many times about so much stuff of this nature

Re: the Gannaway videos... I agree with Dave VA completely. I have the original 12 and the Shanachie 3, and they are necessary for the libraries of serious 50's C&W collectors. I haven't checked eBay since I own them, but that would be a good place to start. I got mine at Ernest Tubb Record Shop, but that seven years ago. They're no longer in stock.

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